MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[Assassin 2.0]

Vivek Lall exits shows, Lockheed Martin not sure of F-21 deal with india


admin SOURCE: ANITA DESAI / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG Vivek Lall, a prominent Indian American aerospace and defense expert, who played key roles in some of the major defense deals between India and the U.S., has resigned from Lockheed Martin “to spend more time with family,”. Lall has been under pressure for failing to secure more deals for the company and growing prospects of India ignoring procurement of F-21 (F-16V) for the Indian air force deal for 114 jets. Lall had secured a deal for 24 MH-60 Romeo helicopters from Indian Navy for Lockheed Martin recently and was also actively following up with prospects of Indian Air force ordering additional C-130J Tactical Transporters but the pressure was on to secure biggest fighter jet deal of recent times with India and results weren’t convincing enough with IAF Top Tier still desiring for the French Dassault Rafale fighter jet which already has been ordered in small batch as emergency purchase. F-21 on offer is just a rebadged F-16V and not many are impressed by the what Lockheed Martin has to offer to India as in previous MMRCA tender, India had rejected F-16IN (Block 70) due in technical round and it was an only front runner when tried to procure fighter jets under SEF (Single Engine Fighter ) where the race was limited only with Saab’s Gripen after India scrapped that too and allowed more fighter jets to compete which saw the entry of Sukhoi-35 and F-15.

( this dallal irritated everyone with F-21 propaganda ads and articles good riddance)

 

[BangaliBabu]

India has consistently maintained its place as the world’s second-largest arms importer, buying military hardware worth over $100 billion (Rs 7.5 lakh crore) from the US, France, Russia and Israel between 2013 and 2019.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

How Rafale Class reference will eliminate most of the jets in the race in India


Published May 25, 2020 | By admin SOURCE: DEEPAK HILORI/ FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria spelled out for the first time that Indian Air Force (IAF) is looking for a jet in the middle-weight and is in the Rafale class to procure 114 jets for the IAF in Global Tender which has seen fighter jets from Light and even from Heavy Class competing in what is often described has worlds biggest fighter jet competition. Rafale class reference confirms that IAF is looking for jet which is around 25 tonnes in Max takeoff weight eliminating many of the jets which are competing, making way for only three jets which fit the bill for the IAF thus eliminating 5 jets who are looking to bid in the tender process. Mikoyan MiG-35, Dassault Rafale, and Eurofighter Typhoon are only three jets which are under 25 tonnes in Max takeoff weight, While Gripen E and F-16-V are both below 20 tonnes in Max takeoff weight. Sukhoi Su-35, F-15EX which are usually classified as Heavy Weight Class fighter have Max takeoff weight over 35 tonnes which clearly will be rejected. F-18 E/F has Max takeoff weight under 30 tonnes but it is still 5-6 tonnes over what can be described as Medium Class fighter jets and bordering close to Heavy class fighter jets. In the previous MMRCA Tender, only Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon jets had cleared all Technical Trials

 

[WolfPack86]

How Rafale Class reference will eliminate most of the jets in the race in India

Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria spelled out for the first time that Indian Air Force (IAF) is looking for a jet in the middle-weight and is in the Rafale class to procure 114 jets for the IAF in Global Tender which has seen fighter jets from Light and even from Heavy Class competing in what is often described has worlds biggest fighter jet competition. Rafale class reference confirms that IAF is looking for jet which is around 25 tonnes in Max takeoff weight eliminating many of the jets which are competing, making way for only three jets which fit the bill for the IAF thus eliminating 5 jets who are looking to bid in the tender process. Mikoyan MiG-35, Dassault Rafale, and Eurofighter Typhoon are only three jets which are under 25 tonnes in Max takeoff weight, While Gripen E and F-16-V are both below 20 tonnes in Max takeoff weight. Sukhoi Su-35, F-15EX which are usually classified as Heavy Weight Class fighter have Max takeoff weight over 35 tonnes which clearly will be rejected. F-18 E/F has Max takeoff weight under 30 tonnes but it is still 5-6 tonnes over what can be described as Medium Class fighter jets and bordering close to Heavy class fighter jets. In the previous MMRCA Tender, only Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon jets had cleared all Technical Trials

How Rafale Class reference will eliminate most of the jets in the race in India – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[WolfPack86]

IAF chief contradicts CDS Rawat, says plan is to buy 114 foreign fighters besides LCA Tejas
New Delhi: Four days after Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Bipin Rawat said the Indian Air Force was planning to switch over to the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) ‘Tejas’ rather than pursue a global tender for 114 new fighter jets, Air Chief Marshal R.K.S. Bhadauria has contradicted him.


Bhadauria said Monday that the list of aircraft planned to be inducted by the IAF includes 36 Rafales, 114 multirole fighter aircraft, 100 advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) and over 200 LCAs in different variants.


Rawat had told news agency Bloomberg last week that the IAF “is switching to the LCA” when asked about the global tender for jets.



“The IAF is saying, I would rather take the indigenous fighter, it is good,” he was quoted as saying.


The CDS’ words came as a setback for the likes of Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Saab, who were in the race for the contract for 114 aircraft, which would be worth at least 15 billion dollars and would also entail technology transfer under ‘Make in India’.

However, IAF chief Bhadauria told news agency ANI Monday: “This project (114 jets) is in the middle-weight and is in the Rafale class, in this issue, we will deal with it in the Make in India region, with an increase in FDI, with support to the private sector. I think in future this will bring in technology which is required to support the aviation sector. I think it is important to have another generation of aircraft in terms of capability, technology as we go along (sic).”

Separate programmes

When the CDS had made his comments last week, they had come as a surprise to the Air Force and industry. Sources had explained to ThePrint that the 114 jets cannot be replaced by the 83 LCA as the two fighters are of different classes.



“The IAF projections take into account the 83 LCA Mk 1A, Rafale, the 114 foreign fighters under Make in India, and even the AMCA,” a source had said.


Another source, who was involved in the negotiations for 83 LCAs, said it was wrong to mix up two separate programmes.


Air Chief Marshal Bhadauria also said his force is planning to acquire 450 fighter aircraft for deployment on the northern and western frontiers of the country over the next 35 years.


Regardless, the IAF will not reach its sanctioned strength of 42 squadrons by 2042, its projections have revealed.


The best-case scenario is if the force inducts the Tejas Mark 2, the AMCA and 114 fighter aircraft, for which a request for proposal is still awaited.

IAF chief contradicts CDS Rawat, says plan is to buy 114 foreign fighters besides LCA Tejas

CDS Gen. Bipin Rawat had said IAF was planning to buy the indigenous LCA Tejas instead of 114 ‘Make in India’ foreign jets.

theprint.in

 

[WolfPack86]

Why India Cannot Ignore the F-35
There have been comments recently on the MMRCA 2.0 acquisition program from the IAF top brass in light of changing economic calculations due to the coronavirus. It is worthwhile revisiting the contending aircraft in this contest, and its most noticeable absentee, the Lockheed Martin F-35. The F-35 is the only fighter jet available for purchase that is 5th generation and features stealth. This must be seen in the context of the standoff between India and China, which continues to escalate across several points across the Line of Actual Control ( LAC). It is becoming apparent that, whatever aircraft gets “down-selected” in this contest, will have to provide answers for its most probable high threat scenario. The MMRCA 2.0contest has to produce an aircraft with capabilities relevant to this theatre. It must be capable of penetrating Chinese airspace from a high altitude. Given that China now fields the Russian S-400, the MMRCA aircraft must have stealth capabilities to evade advanced radars. The limited airfields that India has in the north and northeast India are vulnerable to a pre-emptive Chinese missile barrage. To mitigate the risk of loss of most airfields, the aircraft must have vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL) capabilities enabling it to take off from short or damaged runways. In addition to its 5th generation stealth features, the F-35 also has a Vertical Take-Off and Landing ( VTOL) version, is capable of command and control functions and has an ISR platform which relays targeting information to the pilot. The F-35 has the best sensor fusion of any aircraft. It is a veritable flying computer with a top speed of Mach 1.6 and a combat range of 670 miles. F-35 can provide a leading-edge component to the Air Force and Navy. Its stealth capability will create a major deterrence for China (and Pakistan) from threatening India either conventionally or sub-conventionally.In the event of a conflict with China, Indian airstrips will be the primary target to disable the IAF. The F-35B can overcome this threat by allowing VTOL operations. The F-35B can form a multi-task aerial asset that can act as a force multiplier for the IAF and Indian Navy. For the Airforce, the F-35 can fly in contested India-China border airspace and provide targeting to 4th generation IAF assets and surface-to-surface missile batteries for targeting. India is likely to exclusively fight on its country borders and the nearshore in the Indian Ocean. A mix of the Airforce and Naval variants of the F-35 will best suit its needs. The F-35’s VTOL capabilities will enable the Indian Navy to convert its projected Landing Helicopter Docks (LHD’s) into Aircraft carriers. This will practically double the number of aircraft carriers it can field in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR). With its 1,239 km combat radius on internal fuel, the F-35 will be able to choke the pressure points for China in the Malacca straits as well as the energy supply lines for both China and Pakistan in the Persian Gulf. It will also give flexibility to the IN to reinforce the IAF as the tactical nature of war changes within the timeframe of limited conflict. The Balakot operation, for the first time, lowered the threshold for an Indian air-to-ground response to a terrorist attack. It raised the stakes for the retaliation Pakistan can expect, in the event of another attack. The F-35 will reduce the risk for the IAF going into another such operation. With its stealth, it will allow the IAF to take out anti-aircraft assets both from within the neighbor’s airspace and at standoff ranges. Given the asymmetry in capabilities the F-35 will bring, Pakistan will be dissuaded from pursuing sub-conventional misadventures within Indian borders. Given that the Indian AMCA program will produce a stealth fighter as soon as 2030, it is a valid question whether India can and should afford two stealth platforms after 2030. Currently, only America and China do so and both are 10+ trillion-dollar economies. To answer this, we must take into account the level of threat the F-35 will bring to its belligerent neighbors. By extension, the relative peace it will create will allow for the Indian economy to grow under a defensive umbrella. With a large enough order, India can join the F-35 global supply chain, albeit late. It will also take a close look at the capabilities and roadmap of the F-35 as it evolves over the years. This will feed into its own development of the iterations of the AMCA. There is general fatigue associated with the second iteration of the MMRCA. The rationale for its existence has never been self-evident. Looking at the timeframes, the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. ( HAL)Medium Weight Fighter (MWF)will be in production in 2026 at the earliest. The MWF is the newest iteration of the Tejas LCA, although in a new weight class. It will only be a year or two later than when the MMRCA winner will begin production. Any 4th generation jet such as the Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, F-21, Grippen, or Mig-35 will only provide an incremental range, payload, and avionics relative to the MWF. What the IAF needs is game-changing capabilities, ones that will be relevant to its warfighting needs for the next two to three decades. If the selected fighter is other than the Rafale, India is looking at additional costs in modifications at fighter bases, aircraft customizations, logistics, training, and support costs. The additional costs running into hundred into billions of dollars will cannibalize finances. Other Indian aircraft programs such as the TEDBF/ORCA will be impacted and timelines delayed. If operational requirements demand, a reorder for 24 to 36 Dassault Rafales can be made. The MMRCA must either pave the way for a disruptive 5th generation aircraft or make way for the HAL MWF.

Why India Cannot Ignore the F-35 – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[WolfPack86]

India May Get a ‘Supercharged’ F-16 from Lockheed Martin
India may soon acquire a supercharged F-16 specifically tailored to them by Lockheed Martin as part of an effort to match, rival or exceed Chinese air supremacy in the event of a conflict.


Called the F-21, the remodeled planes incorporate several specific-to-India technologies, according to Lockheed developers. Some of these technologies include an advanced, Northrop built APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Array, Electronic Warfare systems and Triple Missile Launcher Adapters “allowing the F-21 to carry 40-percent more air-to-air weapons than previous F-16 designs.”


“The F-21 is also the only fighter in the world capable of both probe/drogue and boom aerial refueling, and it has the longest service life of any competitor—12,000 flight hours,” Lockheed spokesman John Losinger told The National Interest.


The new AESA radar, he added, nearly doubles the range of existing radar systems, enabling much more substantial detection and targeting capability. The F-21 also uses a U.S. Navy-built advanced Infrared Search and Track targeting technology. IRST is used extensively in U.S. Navy Super Hornet F-18 upgrades. Navy officials have described the IRST system is a passive, long-range sensor that searches for and detects infrared emissions. IRST is designed to simultaneously track multiple targets and provide a highly effective air-to-air targeting capability, even when encountering advanced threats equipped with radar-jamming technology, Navy developers explained.


The IRST technology was specifically engineered with a mind to the fast-changing electromagnetic warfare environment and the realization that potential future adversaries are far more likely to contest U.S. dominance in these areas.

India May Get a 'Supercharged' F-16 from Lockheed Martin - Defence News India

India may soon acquire a supercharged F-16 specifically tailored to them by Lockheed Martin as part of an effort to match, rival or exceed Chinese air supremacy in the event of a conflict.

www.defenceaviationpost.com

 

[ashdoc]

India May Get a ‘Supercharged’ F-16 from Lockheed Martin
India may soon acquire a supercharged F-16 specifically tailored to them by Lockheed Martin as part of an effort to match, rival or exceed Chinese air supremacy in the event of a conflict.


Called the F-21, the remodeled planes incorporate several specific-to-India technologies, according to Lockheed developers. Some of these technologies include an advanced, Northrop built APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Array, Electronic Warfare systems and Triple Missile Launcher Adapters “allowing the F-21 to carry 40-percent more air-to-air weapons than previous F-16 designs.”


“The F-21 is also the only fighter in the world capable of both probe/drogue and boom aerial refueling, and it has the longest service life of any competitor—12,000 flight hours,” Lockheed spokesman John Losinger told The National Interest.


The new AESA radar, he added, nearly doubles the range of existing radar systems, enabling much more substantial detection and targeting capability. The F-21 also uses a U.S. Navy-built advanced Infrared Search and Track targeting technology. IRST is used extensively in U.S. Navy Super Hornet F-18 upgrades. Navy officials have described the IRST system is a passive, long-range sensor that searches for and detects infrared emissions. IRST is designed to simultaneously track multiple targets and provide a highly effective air-to-air targeting capability, even when encountering advanced threats equipped with radar-jamming technology, Navy developers explained.


The IRST technology was specifically engineered with a mind to the fast-changing electromagnetic warfare environment and the realization that potential future adversaries are far more likely to contest U.S. dominance in these areas.

India May Get a 'Supercharged' F-16 from Lockheed Martin - Defence News India

India may soon acquire a supercharged F-16 specifically tailored to them by Lockheed Martin as part of an effort to match, rival or exceed Chinese air supremacy in the event of a conflict.

www.defenceaviationpost.com

Price wise what is comparison with rafale ?

 

[WolfPack86]

‘Deal for 114 fighters critical for IAF to retain edge against China’

Despite the Indian Army announcing that it had agreed with China to begin mutually 'disengaging' from contentious areas across the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Ladakh, tension remains high following the clash on June 15. Reports and satellite imagery have raised concerns that China is increasing its troop concentrations in the region. The Indian Air Force began deploying fighter aircraft and helicopters to forward air bases in the region a week ago. But discourse on a potential conflict with China has mostly been dominated by a focus on ground forces. The potential use of air power on the border with China has been a subject of debate ever since the Jawaharlal Nehru government decided against deploying Indian Air Force fighter and attack aircraft against the invading Chinese forces in 1962. The Observer Research Foundation, a premier think tank, on Friday published a paper authored by retired air vice marshal Arjun Subramaniam, who is presently a strategic affairs commentator. In the paper titled, Air Power in Joint Operations: A Game Changer in a Limited Conflict with China, Subramaniam argues there is a realisation in the Indian policy making establishment "that air power could emerge as a key element in future India–China conflicts". As the basis for this, Subramaniam cited the Narendra Modi government's move to fast-track purchase of 33 fighter aircraft—21 MiG-29 jets and 12 Su-30MKI fighters—from Russia. The purchase of these jets had been in the pipeline for several months. Subramaniam declared, "A greater debate is required on the optimal ways of leveraging Indian air power on/across the LAC, should situations escalate beyond face-offs". Subramaniam's paper also refers to the findings of a study of Harvard Kennedy School that had claimed that India had military advantages against China in a potential conflict. Subramaniam disputes some of the findings of the Harvard study on the Indian Air Force having more 'fourth-generation' fighters in the region than China. "The Harvard paper engages in a bit of ‘India overreach’ by suggesting that the IAF’s current inventory of fourth-generation fighters (Mirage-2000s, MiG-29 UPG and SU-30 MKI) are more than a match for the PLAAF SU-30s, J-10s and J-11s. This might be qualitatively true, but quantitatively, the Harvard paper’s estimation is not corroborated by those of other studies," Subramaniam writes in the Observer Research Foundation paper. He also dispute the "The Harvard report’s suggestion that the PLAAF would allocate and train barely 15 percent of its fourth- and fifth-generation fighters for operations in an India scenario". Citing another study, Subramaniam estimates the Chinese Air Force's "current inventory of fourth-generation platforms could have crossed 850, or about 40 squadrons. One can project that this figure will go up to approximately 50 squadrons of fourth-generation fighters by 2025". Referring to the Chinese Air Force's induction of the J-20 stealth fighter, Subramaniam argues the Indian Air Force will lose the "qualitative "advantage of the SU-30 MKI and the limited number of Rafales" in this decade. Subramaniam also acknowledges China's inventory of H-6 strategic bombers, which can fire cruise missiles at ranges of 500km or more. The Indian Air Force does not have a comparable aircraft or weapons. Subramaniam was cautious about the capabilities of the indigenously built HAL Tejas fighter. The Indian Air Force is expected to buy 83 Tejas MK1A fighters. Subramaniam notes the LCA will offer modest capabilities. He notes, "It is too early to assess whether the LCA MK-1A will be able to penetrate the air-defence network on the Tibetan Plateau. For now, it must be assumed that they will primarily be used in favourable conditions—to hold the line on the western sector, and provide local air defence and limited offensive support around the LAC." Subramaniam terms as critical the Indian Air Force's plan to buy 114 multirole fighters, at an estimated cost of $15 billion. He writes, "The acquisition of the 114 MRFA aircraft with high-end fourth-generation capability could be critical for the IAF to maintain its combat edge over the PLAAF, since neither the LCA MK-1A nor the proposed MK-2 are likely to supplement the SU-30 MKIs and the Rafale as its vanguard". Last month, Chief of Defence Staff General Bipin Rawat caused a flutter when he hinted the proposed deal to buy 114 fighter jets could be shelved in favour of buying more Tejas jets. Subramaniam paints a worrying picture for the Indian Air Force by 2030, in terms of numbers. He notes, "Even in the best-case situation of the timely induction of all LCA MK-IA aircraft, emergency purchase of the SU-30s and MiG-29s, the two Rafale squadrons, and up to six multirole fighter Aircraft (MRFA) squadrons (should the pending 114 aircraft contract go through), the IAF will at best have 32–34 fighter squadrons by 2030." This is in comparison to China's PLAAF, which he estimates will have around 50 squadrons of “strong fourth-generation fighters" and 10 squadrons of modest fifth-generation J-20-class aircraft. Subramaniam notes the Indian Air Force could still retain a numerical advantage in operations in the Tibet region thanks to its network of 10-12 airbases. He writes, "However, a combination of the dense air defence cover, superior EW and space-based intelligence, and the availability of large numbers of the J-20 fifth-generation aircraft will pare the current qualitative advantage of the IAF, unless there is the speedy induction of the 114 MRFA aircraft".

‘Deal for 114 fighters critical for IAF to retain edge against China’

Despite the Indian Army announcing that it had agreed with China to begin mutually 'disengaging' from contentious areas across the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Ladakh, tension remains high following the clash on June 15. Reports and satellite imagery have raised concerns that China is...

www.defencenews.in

 

[Blue Water Navy]

Since there are many aviation experts here. I would like to know about the maneuverability of F16 (F21, whatever you wanna call it) & Gripen NG, which one is better?!

 

[piKacHHu]

Since there are many aviation experts here. I would like to know about the maneuverability of F16 (F21, whatever you wanna call it) & Gripen NG, which one is better?!

I am not an aviation expert but could comment as an aviation enthusiast; Gripen NG is better than F-16 in most aspects of maneuverability like ITR, STR (claimed but not confirmed), AoA etc.

F-21 is an upgraded F-16 with better sensor package and endurance (Thanks to CFT); but it compromises a lot in terms of maneuverability as compared to its earlier avatars like F-16 Block C/D. Going by IAF choice, it rates maneuverability very high for aircraft performance, which is an outcome of large Soviet/ Russian aircraft inventory.

 

[WolfPack86]

क्या Mig-29 के बाद India अब Russia से Mig-35 खरीदने जा रहा है?

 

[Blue Water Navy]

I am not an aviation expert but could comment as an aviation enthusiast; Gripen NG is better than F-16 in most aspects of maneuverability like ITR, STR (claimed but not confirmed), AoA etc.

F-21 is an upgraded F-16 with better sensor package and endurance (Thanks to CFT); but it compromises a lot in terms of maneuverability as compared to its earlier avatars like F-16 Block C/D. Going by IAF choice, it rates maneuverability very high for aircraft performance, which is an outcome of large Soviet/ Russian aircraft inventory.

With this problem with China we will need machines. Our army and navy doesn't need much adjustments but our air force does. Gripen will be a smart choice for air force but its going to take time for it to come into play because many things in Gripen are still untested. And also it will be not a single supply chain.

On the other hand f16 will be great for times like now. As we need machines asap. Tejas mk2 is also a good option but still its even behind gripen. God knows what we will do.

 

[fire starter]

With this problem with China we will need machines. Our army and navy doesn't need much adjustments but our air force does. Gripen will be a smart choice for air force but its going to take time for it to come into play because many things in Gripen are still untested. And also it will be not a single supply chain.

On the other hand f16 will be great for times like now. As we need machines asap. Tejas mk2 is also a good option but still its even behind gripen. God knows what we will do.

tejas mk2 will be more advanced than gripen.

 

[Blue Water Navy]

tejas mk2 will be more advanced than gripen.

Yes I know. But the problem is we need machines now.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

When you see MOD running away from rafale to buy junkie products.

 

[airtel]

Yes I know. But the problem is we need machines now.

And grippen E would be available in 2023 and for India it would be even more late.
So better order Tejas

 

[IndianHawk]

When you see MOD running away from rafale to buy junkie products. View attachment 51399

Don't see it happening.
1. Mig35 is not mature. It's aesa is not ready and rd33 engine are maintainance prone. Also airframe life is a decade less than Western jets.
2. Mig35 is as big as rafale in size but payload and range are comparable to mwf only.
So it's a competition for mwf just like f16 and gripen E.

Mwf beats mig35 on every parameter barring aerodynamics where mig35 will do better due to superior thrust.

 

[IndianHawk]

Yes I know. But the problem is we need machines now.

Only immediate machines are those we are already building means su30 mki and lca mk1. We can double their production if required.
Any foreign machine won't come immediately.

 

[scatterStorm]

Only immediate machines are those we are already building means su30 mki and lca mk1. We can double their production if required.
Any foreign machine won't come immediately.

Exactly, we have already the production line for Tejas and MKI, better upgrade the shit fathoms of it to push Tejas MK2, AMCA. War scale level approach to private industry will churn jets in 2 years like never seen before.