MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[fire starter]

I suggest ordering 12 Rafale every year starting end 2020. This way no big 15 % down payment and that should not bankrupt MOD.
You get 36 more Rafale by end 2025 this way.

you mean staggered purchase.

 

[Bajirao]

Talk is cheap

MMRCA was Important Even More than S-400

IAF is flying a fucking Mig-21 for 50 years
Lost Pilots

They Put forward there demand in 2000 onward in Recommendation committee Since then MOD fucked up
With MMRCA

Lets Not talk about HAL babus Even Now We are not sure they Will deliver LCA MK1A or MWF on Delivery schedules

Isn't Navy Demand for IAC-3 Is Needless When they know it Will cost us 15 billion $

Sure Taxpayers have balls to Sit in Mirage-2000 IN And Cross in to 80 km into Enemy territory

PS: All IAF Officers are Taxpayers Too There Salary deduct TDS every month

Iaf had to fight f-16 with mig-21 because they didn't have software defined radio.they had superior su-30 but couldn't deploy them at proper time and place because they hadn't basic, a good communication system.sukhoi were roaming in the sky with no clue where and when to go.better jets have no use when we don't have basic tech. to properly use them......................good news is that atleast after that incident sdr contract has been signed with isreal

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Speaking at the 'International Fighter Conference', a French official on Wednesday claimed the French Air Force and Navy plan to upgrade their Rafale jets to serve till 2070

USAF To Keep Upgraded F-16s Till 2048

USAF To Keep Upgraded F-16s Till 2048 As Fate Of F-15C In Doubt

The plan could mean the beginning of the end for the F-15C/D Eagle fleet.

www.thedrive.com

France planning to keep Rafale fighters in service till 2070!

Future Rafale variants will feature improved connectivity, artificial intelligence

www.google.com

 

[Tactical Frog]

you mean staggered purchase.

Well just a suggestion. Staggered purchase is not what I would recommend from buyer’s side. Has to do with the impact of Wuhan virus on finances ... otherwise big ticket contracts are better for buyers.
Still Dassault is not in fantastic shape right now as all the aerospace industry. There is room for price negotiation .

 

[WARREN SS]

Well just a suggestion. Staggered purchase is not what I would recommend from buyer’s side. Has to do with the impact of Wuhan virus on finances ... otherwise big ticket contracts are better for buyers.
Still Dassault is not in fantastic shape right now as all the aerospace industry. There is room for price negotiation .

I Will be happy With Even 4 Squadrons of F3R

But practically 114+36 Needed To Take both PLAAF And PAF together
It Will change Dynamics

LCA +MWF Will be cherry on top

RAFALE F3R is best BVR Aircraft in south asia

Let CCP claim anything We know they are behind in field Of EW And Avionics than Europeans

 

[Assassin 2.0]

End drama by buying 36 more rafale.
We will have 72 rafale
40+83 LCA will be sufficient to replace MIG-21 and fill gap of MIG-27.
Rest can be covered by MWF and by updating SU-30 to super sukhoi.
We also need to divert money to build fuckin naval equipments.

 

[WARREN SS]

How many years do you think it will take for vendors to build infrastructure in india and produce 112 aircrafts?

It can only happen When We have Private Partnerships or Involvement
in Every phase of Aircraft development in India its happening in AMCA so i think
After AMCA induction

 

[WARREN SS]

We also need to divert money to build fuckin naval equipments.

Navy IAC-3 deal needless

they Projected SSN And SSBN And More Scorpene's

Subs Should be Focus now And Developing ASW Fleet

Nor Fuckin 15 Billion $ Floating Nuclear CBG the Need is not immediate So It should be shifted to next decade

 

[Assassin 2.0]

It can only happen When We have Private Partnerships or Involvement
in Every phase of Aircraft development in India its happening in AMCA so i think
After AMCA induction

Big part of MMRCA 2.0 Deal was to create aerospace infrastructure in india by creating supply chains and all so that we can bring private sector into this field by not allowing HAL in MMRCA 1 was basic vision to create other player's in this business so if we are going to spend 20 billion on 112 jets I'm sure they will be build in india with private industry so my question was how many years it will take to build these aircrafts in india with make initiative.
But in staggered purchase this will not be the case.

 

[Knowitall]

Speaking at the 'International Fighter Conference', a French official on Wednesday claimed the French Air Force and Navy plan to upgrade their Rafale jets to serve till 2070

USAF To Keep Upgraded F-16s Till 2048

USAF To Keep Upgraded F-16s Till 2048 As Fate Of F-15C In Doubt

The plan could mean the beginning of the end for the F-15C/D Eagle fleet.

www.thedrive.com

France planning to keep Rafale fighters in service till 2070!

Future Rafale variants will feature improved connectivity, artificial intelligence

www.google.com

Read that article on f-16 basically USAF will be going for the SLEP upgrade for f-16 while F-15 will be going to the boneyards basically a major upgrade for f-15 is way to costly for USAF so they will upgrade the f-16 while the f-15 will start getting retired.

The lack of money is due the USAF concentrating and spending heavily on f-35 then also have their own sixth generation FCAS program a stealth drone program and the new b-21 stealth bomber.

In the end of the article the USAF offical humse of says that f-16 in any future conflict be it europe or any where else will get shot down easily with a near peer enemy. They are themselves accepting that.

They will probably keep the f-16 for low end conflicts in ME or somewhere else.

France will also keep Rafale the way the way they keep mirage now since it's expensive for then to maintain an all 6th gen fleet.

I am not advocating for rafale I believe it would be much better if DRDO HAL and IAF can chalk out a plan like a stealth version of tejas more AMCA and a heavy stealth fighter jet like fgfa for sukhoi replacement.

 

[nrj]

IAF to acquire 450 fighter aircraft in future, says Air Force Chief RKS Bhadauria
In the future, the Indian Air Force is planning to acquire 450 fighter aircraft for deployment on the northern and western frontiers of the country, Air Force Chief RKS Bhadauria said on Monday.

The list of aircraft planned to be inducted by the Air Force include 36 Rafales, 114 Multirole Fighter Aircraft, 100 Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) and over 200 variants of the Light Combat Aircraft.

Defencenews.in

Classic move. Keep your enemies confused, and even the fanboys

 

[Bleh]

Classic move. Keep your enemies confused, and even the fanboys

Unfortunately, chances are that they themselves are just as confused.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Come to thread

Muh F 16, F35
Muh Rafale
Muh Ruski jet

U guys want to blow billions of dollar to buy jets that will last 20 years at most but won't invest in India to nurture aeropace industry that will last forever.
How about sparing some millions to get NAL saras mk 1 mk2 running so that we can get Start our own Small passenger aircraft industry

Better how about we let some load of to priavte industry so that they can get a taste of aerospace as well.
HAL cant make us a aeropace giant, at least not the way it is.
A good aerospace environments means a wide chain of Sub Component suppliers.
Literally go and check out F 22, more than 100 companies are involved in making the jet. But all we know is LM. LM just does the job of assembly and Software.
But niggas here want HAL to manufacture rivettee ro paint and everything imaginable on the aircraft
Mayeb we should work on raising more and more aerospace companies that give us a diverse range of components and a Robust supply change.

Maybe patch up NAL and Mahindra for Saras Project.

Get Kalyani in the UAV Program.

Get L&T and HAL in IMRH.

Get Tata involved with Embraer in making an alternative to C 130.

Invite Kalyani in K 10 Engine Project.
Kalyani is a Metallurgy pioneer maybe discuss what they lack and what they have to come to a solution together.

Pass a low interest loans for Aerospace Startup's and propel them into the market fast.

Maybe fund more IITs to expand their metallurgy R&D at university level.

Give directions to PSU and Private companies to invite students with merits for internship.

How about fast tracking our Tetsing and integration.

How about building more Wind Tunnels

Thank god Americans didn't have any option but to develope their own aerospace otherwise they would have been acting like us.

" Import muh rafuls"

"Muh Ruski jet need Upgrades"

"Muh Supa Sugois"

"Good lawd luuk at those F 35s"

"Please Americu gib engine"

"Please Americu gib C 17s"

"Ruski dady gib Brahmoos"

"Americu please teach us how to build jet engines"

20 years down the line we still won't have anything other than HAL.


Billions to purchase aircraft and not a dime to nurture your own capability.

Socialist maggots like Neggdu and Endara banned participation of Private industry and pushed us back by as decade.
We would have our own decent defence industry better than what we have now.

Still we can't embrace ourselves completely.

 

[piKacHHu]

I Will be happy With Even 4 Squadrons of F3R

But practically 114+36 Needed To Take both PLAAF And PAF together
It Will change Dynamics

LCA +MWF Will be cherry on top

RAFALE F3R is best BVR Aircraft in south asia

Let CCP claim anything We know they are behind in field Of EW And Avionics than Europeans

They are not able to close the C-295 deal for replacement of vintage Avro under Make in India for which price negotiations are completed for long. That deal has been protracting for almost more than half a decade but still no outcome. If they are not able to fetch a relatively small size contract of around $3 Billion worth with significant domestic manufacturing component; then imagine what will happen to a mammoth $20 billion jet deal given the gloomy forecast painted for economy post covid.
IMO, MMRCA 2.0 is also going to bite the dust; face saving could be done by ordering another tranche of Rafale.
For Need part, absolutely agree; 114 Rafales will be a game changer in the SA region that could provide significant buffer against PLAAF for at least a decade (till the arrival of AMCA to be precise).

 

[Lancer]

I Will be happy With Even 4 Squadrons of F3R

But practically 114+36 Needed To Take both PLAAF And PAF together
It Will change Dynamics

LCA +MWF Will be cherry on top

RAFALE F3R is best BVR Aircraft in south asia

Let CCP claim anything We know they are behind in field Of EW And Avionics than Europeans

After all the customizations we went through for our variant + the infrastructure we created. It'd be pretty shocking to stop short of at least 6 squadrons.

 

[ProudIndian36]

Come to thread

Muh F 16, F35
Muh Rafale
Muh Ruski jet

U guys want to blow billions of dollar to buy jets that will last 20 years at most but won't invest in India to nurture aeropace industry that will last forever.
How about sparing some millions to get NAL saras mk 1 mk2 running so that we can get Start our own Small passenger aircraft industry

Better how about we let some load of to priavte industry so that they can get a taste of aerospace as well.
HAL cant make us a aeropace giant, at least not the way it is.
A good aerospace environments means a wide chain of Sub Component suppliers.
Literally go and check out F 22, more than 100 companies are involved in making the jet. But all we know is LM. LM just does the job of assembly and Software.
But niggas here want HAL to manufacture rivettee ro paint and everything imaginable on the aircraft
Mayeb we should work on raising more and more aerospace companies that give us a diverse range of components and a Robust supply change.

Maybe patch up NAL and Mahindra for Saras Project.

Get Kalyani in the UAV Program.

Get L&T and HAL in IMRH.

Get Tata involved with Embraer in making an alternative to C 130.

Invite Kalyani in K 10 Engine Project.
Kalyani is a Metallurgy pioneer maybe discuss what they lack and what they have to come to a solution together.

Pass a low interest loans for Aerospace Startup's and propel them into the market fast.

Maybe fund more IITs to expand their metallurgy R&D at university level.

Give directions to PSU and Private companies to invite students with merits for internship.

How about fast tracking our Tetsing and integration.

How about building more Wind Tunnels

Thank god Americans didn't have any option but to develope their own aerospace otherwise they would have been acting like us.

" Import muh rafuls"

"Muh Ruski jet need Upgrades"

"Muh Supa Sugois"

"Good lawd luuk at those F 35s"

"Please Americu gib engine"

"Please Americu gib C 17s"

"Ruski dady gib Brahmoos"

"Americu please teach us how to build jet engines"

20 years down the line we still won't have anything other than HAL.


Billions to purchase aircraft and not a dime to nurture your own capability.

Socialist maggots like Neggdu and Endara banned participation of Private industry and pushed us back by as decade.
We would have our own decent defence industry better than what we have now.

Still we can't embrace ourselves completely.

Best post hands down. We need to have people with your mindset in government and defence.

 

[vampyrbladez]

More Rafales confirmed. To be bought in tranches possibly. No RFPs coming in.

Note the very specific 'Rafale Class' ~ 11 bought per year * 10 = 110 ~ 114

https://www.aninews.in/news/nationa...raft-in-future-air-force-chief20200518170601/

Going by CDS's words, the 83 Tejas MK1A order will probably be prioritised for funding.

"The Indian Air Force is switching that to the LCA,” Rawat said, when asked about the global tender for jets. “The IAF is saying, I would rather take the indigenous fighter, it is good.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theprint.in/defence/iaf-to-buy-83-more-tejas-fighters-from-hal-instead-of-foreign-jets-cds-rawat-says/421827/?amp

 

[no smoking]

Iaf had to fight f-16 with mig-21 because they didn't have software defined radio.they had superior su-30 but couldn't deploy them at proper time and place because they hadn't basic, a good communication system.sukhoi were roaming in the sky with no clue where and when to go.better jets have no use when we don't have basic tech. to properly use them......................good news is that atleast after that incident sdr contract has been signed with isreal

That is the most laughable claim I have ever seen. Most advanced fighter jet among IAF fleet had no good communication system, such a most basic sub-system? You are insulting your own men in office.

Firstly, what do you want a fighter jet to do If you sent it up there to do CAP without communication? Drinking coffee and taking a snap?
Secondly, the Kopyo Radar on the Mig-21 Bison has 57km detection range against 5m2 target, the Bars on Su-30 MKI has the capability to detect a 1m2 target around 75km, for a F-16 size target, it can detect 150km away. So, it is ridiculous to claim that Su-30 mki didn't see Pakistan jets.

 

[Bleh]

That is the most laughable claim I have ever seen. Most advanced fighter jet among IAF fleet had no good communication system, such a most basic sub-system? You are insulting your own men in office.

Firstly, what do you want a fighter jet to do If you sent it up there to do CAP without communication? Drinking coffee and taking a snap?
Secondly, the Kopyo Radar on the Mig-21 Bison has 57km detection range against 5m2 target, the Bars on Su-30 MKI has the capability to detect a 1m2 target around 75km, for a F-16 size target, it can detect 150km away. So, it is ridiculous to claim that Su-30 mki didn't see Pakistan jets.

You can laugh all you want, but there is more to it than mere specifications. @Bajirao overstates a bit ofcourse, however while the Mig-21s climbed up from behind Pir Panjal, the Sukhoi-30 were at higher altitude. Meaning F-16s were against topography to its radar.
Russian radars have a bad reputation for not being able to differentiate target from clutter.

It's not possible to ascertain the accuracy of it, but multiple places have mentioned failure to identify the F-16s until the AMRAAMs were launched.

 

[aditya10r]

IAF to acquire 450 fighter aircraft in future, says Air Force Chief RKS Bhadauria
In the future, the Indian Air Force is planning to acquire 450 fighter aircraft for deployment on the northern and western frontiers of the country, Air Force Chief RKS Bhadauria said on Monday.

The list of aircraft planned to be inducted by the Air Force include 36 Rafales, 114 Multirole Fighter Aircraft, 100 Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) and over 200 variants of the Light Combat Aircraft.

"In the next 15 years, 83 LCAs are our primary focus, after that LCA Mark 2 will come in we are looking at close to 100 of those, that makes it near 200 of LCA class," Bhadauria told ANI in an interview.


"AMCA, we are looking at six squadrons, so that puts it close to 100 (aircraft). So, in the indigenous domain areas which are already frozen in terms of our requirement, in terms of our understanding with DRDO in the fighter (segment)," said the Air Force Chief.

He added that the induction of these fighters would take place over a period of the next 35 years as the inductions have to be planned to keep in mind the future requirements.

The Air Force Chief said: "In the trainer aircraft segment, we are looking at 70 HTT-40 as a support aircraft to the Pilatus fleet. So, we are looking at 370 odd indigenous aircraft."

The IAF chief said that currently it was the best time from the point of view for indigenous production and said, "It is now the perfect time for industries to respond and come up with solutions which are rapidly put in place and come up to the challenge of delivering these aircraft."

On plans to acquire 114 multirole fighter aircraft, he said, "this project is in the middle-weight and is in the Rafale class, in this issue, we will deal with it in the Make in India region, with an increase in FDI, with support to the private sector. I think in future this will bring in technology which is required to support the aviation sector. I think it is important to have another generation of aircraft in terms of capability, technology as we go along."

A few months ago, the Indian Air Force was facing a shortage of around 10 squadrons of Combat Aircraft in view of phasing out of the MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighters planes.

Defencenews.in

Okay so a quick economic lesson to IAF chief.
114 Fighter aircrafts that they want to purchase will cost as of now some 19 billion USD(airframes themselves cost 100 million USD plus and then there is training spares maintenance weapons package india specific upgrades and infrastructure development) and there is no way in hell can we sign a deal in next 4-5 years>Its just impossible,it took us 15-16 years to settle for Rafale after such requirement was asked for by the IAF.But even an optimistic side of me would suggest its the signing of the deal is still 5-7 years away and taking in account the inflation of 2.5% the deal becomes 22 Billion USD in 7 years.All of this will have to be paid in Forex and we being a trade deficit nation will have problem funding 20 Billion USD plus program.And this 20 billion USD figure is questionable,i assume a single aircraft to cost about 165-180 million USD while Rafale(2016) has costed us over 230 million USD per aircraft.So this new MMRCA 2.0 could cost well over 30 Billion USD.
Then we have the procurement.Are we going to produce or even assemble the aircrafts in india?If so then the cost will shoot up 50-100% making the already exorbitantly expensive deal a total back breaker for the Defence Budget.Then comes the life cycle cost which will again be very high.Making the deal roughly 45-60 Billion USD throughout the procurement cycle.

Lets talk timeline.We can kiss any big ticket purchase till 2024 none of that shit is happening.Next year the MOD budget will go dry absolutely.Tax revenues have hit rock bottom and there are other sectors that need financial attention.At best the deal will be signed around 2027 and the first jet will arrive in india by 2030.And in 2030 that jet wont carry india specific upgrades and such upgrades wont be implemented for another 4-5 years(i am taking the present rafale deal for reference).And all of this is an optimistic scenario.This could very well see delays of 3-5 years.
And keep in mind we will be procuring a jet with 2020 era tech in 2035 for an extremely high price(anywhere between 22-60 billion USD).I dont think thats worth it.

The only solution to this problem is HAL Tejas and its variant and Super Sukhoi upgrade.Order 3 more squadrons of Tejas mk1/mk1a to take the total number of aircrafts to 180 jets,this can be done within 2030s no rocket science hopefully.Another 15 squadrons of Mk2 MWF that will come around 2030 and procurement will go well into 2030s and Start upgrading Su-30.If we sign the deal to upgrade it around 2025 and start upgrading it around 2030(realistic timeline) the upgrade cycle will continue in 2030s and the aircraft will be able to serve till early 2050s.ORCA,Lets where it goes,but i am sure that it wont see FOC induction a day before 2035.So maybe it has a place in Air force maybe it doesnt.AMCA is still 20 years away so no point fretting about that.
For the people who think Tejas is too shortlegged or too underarmed,provided a dual ejector rack(which is under development) Tejas mk1/mk1a will be able to carry 4 BVR AAM and 2 CCM with 1 Towed EW POD and 1 centreline fuel tank and still have 2 stations empty for fuel or whatever have you.
Purchase more AWACS and MARS systems.We need 2 dozen of both systems.

If all of this is done we might get 42 squadrons by 2040 provided none of the aircrafts mentioned above crash.

Side noteMirage 2000,Mig-29 and Jaguar will serve well into 2030s but will see retirement in late 2030s because most of them were procured in 1980s and given IAFs tradition to fly aircrafts until they dont bite the dust,i am pretty sure.

This is the only viable and economic solution to our squadron number problem.