Misconception of Indian Caste System

[ezsasa]

Post-independent India should have had a common academic framework that can explain the distortions and disruptions that invasions and colonialism has caused in the indigenous social structures like caste,

one phrase or term that explains it all. like leftists have "critical race theory".

if there is one, i am not aware of it.

if it does not exist, it is never too late to coin one.

 

[shade]

I implied wholesale conversion. The wholesale conversion did not happen in BHARAT.
Doctrines of Dvija and VarnaAshram is one of reason the DHARMA is surviving in Goa. The paganism of egypt/persia is extinct. The complexity of the culture is the key. The more complex the culture is the harder it is to crack.

Yes, not of every town/village/tribe, elites in most of the country valued their faith but not everywhere.

Egypt paganism died before Islam came, they converted to christianity, the natives even exist today as Coptic Christians, actually it is because of these Coptics that Caliphate mullas manage to stick around in Egypt, it was because they were having a schism with the Greek Orthodox church that ruled from Constantinople.
So these fools welcomed the Arab mullas as their saviors from "oppressive" Greek Orthodox rule


For Persia it was similar, except it was a civil war like situation there and to top it off their Zoroastrian religion has all the Abrahamic components, one God, main prophet, Angels, Devil, Arabs wouldn't have had a hard time convincing them from a theological standpoint, but the Iranis knew they were the OG, which is why the Arab used the sword to convert them.

 

[shade]

Post-independent India should have had a common academic framework that can explain the distortions and disruptions that invasions and colonialism has caused in the indigenous social structures like caste,

one phrase or term that explains it all. like leftists have "critical race theory".

if there is one, i am not aware of it.

if it does not exist, it is never too late to coin one.

First step is de-colonizing the nomenclature/terminology itself, for the heirarchy there is the Chatur-Varna, 4 tier system, and for individual tribes we have the word jaati, both are conflated using this term "caste" which comes from the Portugays/Spanish system of casta applied in the New World colonies, where you have your European Iberian at the top, then the New World born Iberian, then various kinds of Mestizos( mixed race ), then finally the imported black slaves and remaining native tribes at the very bottom.

 

[ezsasa]

First step is de-colonizing the nomenclature/terminology itself, for the heirarchy there is the Chatur-Varna, 4 tier system, and for individual tribes we have the word jaati, both are conflated using this term "caste" which comes from the Portugays/Spanish system of casta applied in the New World colonies, where you have your European Iberian at the top, then the New World born Iberian, then various kinds of Mestizos( mixed race ), then finally the imported black slaves and remaining native tribes at the very bottom.

my point comes one step before these specifics, the recognition that colonisation distorts indigenous systems. how colonisation and invasions impacted demography, economy, societal relations etc etc comes next.

the concept of "improving the heathens" is still the prevailing global narrative, which is a continuation of colonial legacy. this hasn't been countered yet. that basic premise that colonisation wreaks havoc hasn't been made other than in political context.

 

[shade]

my point comes one step before these specifics, the recognition that colonisation distorts indigenous systems. how colonisation and invasions impacted demography, economy, societal relations etc etc comes next.

the concept of "improving the heathens" is still the prevailing global narrative, which is a continuation of colonial legacy. this hasn't been countered yet. that basic premise that colonisation wreaks havoc hasn't been made other than in political context.

That's there, we need our own national narrative, colonial influence and story-telling over native social structures of jaat-varna can form a part.
Current Academic -> Media discourse is basically regurgitate Western colonial theories criticizing the savage native and his barbaric practices.
It's about time the native tells his own side of the story.

 

[Tactical Doge]

Exactly. Bad succession planning, naively trusting people, not being ruthless in holding onto an empire, not anticipating treachery, not employing better spying methods, not studying successful empire building in other civilizations, just being relaxed and loose, not administering territories well, not keeping the army loyal etc - all combined to create havoc. If you look at any Hindu empire, they just last for 2 or 3 generations and then something happens and the empire just collapses. Compare this to how long the Egyptian pharaohs, Roman emperors, English royals, Chinese dynasties, Ottomans etc ruled their respective areas for centuries without a break in lineage.

Tbh
Hindu dynasties have both obscure dynasties and Dynasties which literally lasted 1500+ years, the three OG Tamil dynasties are literally the oldest and most continuous dynasties on the planet

 

[asaffronladoftherisingsun]

Yes, not of every town/village/tribe, elites in most of the country valued their faith but not everywhere.

Egypt paganism died before Islam came, they converted to christianity, the natives even exist today as Coptic Christians, actually it is because of these Coptics that Caliphate mullas manage to stick around in Egypt, it was because they were having a schism with the Greek Orthodox church that ruled from Constantinople.
So these fools welcomed the Arab mullas as their saviors from "oppressive" Greek Orthodox rule


For Persia it was similar, except it was a civil war like situation there and to top it off their Zoroastrian religion has all the Abrahamic components, one God, main prophet, Angels, Devil, Arabs wouldn't have had a hard time convincing them from a theological standpoint, but the Iranis knew they were the OG, which is why the Arab used the sword to convert them.

Yes the persians were at civil war with the sassanide. I implied the native culture of those lands are extinct. Zoroastrians were very staunch cow worshippers too. The point is that the Dharmik doctrines such that of Dvija led to that micro level consolidation of cultural DHARMIK values which in turn withstood all onslaughts.

In the roman greeks egypt etc. such defensive feature were absent. Leading to their extinction.

Alberuni has written that all castes especially the so-called “lower” classes showed remarkable resistance against conversion.

 

[asaffronladoftherisingsun]

Post-independent India should have had a common academic framework that can explain the distortions and disruptions that invasions and colonialism has caused in the indigenous social structures like caste,

one phrase or term that explains it all. like leftists have "critical race theory".

if there is one, i am not aware of it.

if it does not exist, it is never too late to coin one.

 

[Vamsi]

I think caste is not the problem .But the discrimination was. And there should be fluidity in castes. People should be able to enter and exit it.

There is no fluidity in Varna....It is only by Karma (of previous janma), Janma, Samskara....yes some Non-dvijas can become Dvijas, but it can be initiated only by a brahmana & this kind of climbing up the ladder in Varna is very very rare

 

[Tactical Doge]

There is no fluidity in Varna....It is only by Karma (of previous janma), Janma, Samskara....yes some Non-dvijas can become Dvijas, but it can be initiated only by a brahmana & this kind of climbing up the ladder in Varna is very very rare

Read about Vratyas and avratyas, Hiranyagarbham and the Samantha Kshatriyas of Kerala

Originally there exists only Brahmins, Shudras and the Avarnas in Kerala

 

[cereal killer]

Some interesting points... But we need to understand that Invaders didn't came exactly in large numbers. Arabs invaded in little droves... Qasim had a small a*** little contingent & Boy Dahir was legendary idiot.
While the fighting techniques of Indians were indeed low quality during the later medieval period.... But we didn't exactly mustered overwhelming numbers either. Western historians paint out caste as main reason. Defending country with huge populace has certain advantages. Porus is known to have tapped into his Civilian capability to muster a rag tag army vs Alexander in ancient history which kinda negated the number's advantage of Alex + Ambhi's forces to an extent.
Earlier Assault of Arabs was repulsed by combined efforts of North west & Central India.
But the gap had widened in a century or two by the time Turks came with their mobility & horse Archery.
Prithviraj did had number's advantage (not that large the second time) but Ghori pulled it off eventually with some shrewd tactics & poor strategy of Chauhan.
Vs Jaychandra he had luck on his side.

Will have to look deeply how his slave Aibak navigated his relatively small contingent in a relatively hostile & volatile India. That must be a case study.