Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Damian]

1. Is it possible to fly drones carrying IEDs right to the underbelly of tanks and explode them? How well protected are the bottom of the tanks and how effective would be such a strategy?

Completely insane, impractical, immposible even. Not to mention you would need really large UAV to transport really large IED that is capable to do damage to the tanks belly. And protection of the hull belly depends on vehicle, some tanks like M1 series receive also addon belly armor to counter IED's, it is reported that belly armor for M1 is 200mm thick.

2. Same strategy - except the IED being exploded right next to the tank gun or after hitting the tank gun? Can tank guns withstand such explosions?

Depends on explosion force, sometimes barrel itself is not damaged, but fumes ejector, thermal shourd and other such delicate components mounted on barrel might be badly damaged by explosion.

Ok i too have a question .we all have witnessed the cooking up of the turret on Tseries tanks specifically T72 so my question is after the coking off ,does the remains of Tank crew still be able to identify or it turns into ashes .

I seen a photos of such corpses... or actually what looks like a black pile of burned out meat. It is not nice view and definetely a person that died such way does not look similiar to human anymore. It is terrible death.

Just to add to your second point,

In WW2, German tank crews and 88 mm AT gunners were instructed to target the separation between the turret and the hull for assured first strike knockout. And we do know that these engagements were made from as much as 1000-2000 m out. Eventually, the Russians too began targeting these points. So such precision shots were possible or rather the expectation even then.

Such precision shots are immposible, you clearly have no clue how tank gunnery looks like. You aim at the center of the mass of target and just fire. It is impossible to even aim precisely on specific point of target such as tank because optics of anti tank guns, anti tank weapons and in tanks themselfes does not provide enough zoom, not too mention such fenomena as projectiles dispersion.

 

[hitesh]

Just to add to your second point,

In WW2, German tank crews and 88 mm AT gunners were instructed to target the separation between the turret and the hull for assured first strike knockout. And we do know that these engagements were made from as much as 1000-2000 m out. Eventually, the Russians too began targeting these points. So such precision shots were possible or rather the expectation even then.

Merkava tried to avoid such chance by putting chained iron balls to deflect any warhead targeted at that section

 

[Damian]

Merkava tried to avoid such chance by putting chained iron balls to deflect any warhead targeted at that section

Chains are not to deflect any sort of projectiles, but just to detonate HEAT warheads, specially very delicate RPG ones.

 

[Kay]

Ok. Thanks guys. Answers my queries quite well.

 

[Damian]

@hitesh: Thanks.
Of course hitting the top or hull would be easier. But it would be protected by ERA and armor.
Since this section is about the evolution of armor, so I am taking the liberty to speculate on weapon systems that don't exist, but can be made. I had the idea when I read about dog bombs in WW2.
Now, I take a home made drone. attach it to a skateboard, fit a camera to it, strap up a WW2 mortar piece on the drone, add some fuse, some C4, add a radio and fly the drone using the camera and radio signals . I crash land the drone on the tank's path (like throwing a ball on the path of a moving car) and explode the artillery/mortar piece with my radio. Alternately, I fly it close to the tank gun and explode the artilley piece. A home-made drone will fly at around 40km/hr - almost same as tank. Won't this work?
Of course, you can replace the camera and radio with a mmwave seeker which can see the whole tank in the form of a 3D mesh. But I am trying low-tech solutions. How would a tank counter this threat?

Do you really expect that tank crews are morons and seeing a drone landing inf front of them they would not stop to check it or change their route?

Not to mention that such small flying piece of delicate junk, does not have capability to lift enough explosives to tank even notice explosion.

Leave that hilarious dream behind, it is useless.

 

[Damian]

Besides here are some videos.


IED hidden in car wreck, M1 rolls over, IED explodes, tank barely notices explosion, and in a car wreck you can put much more explosives.

I seen also a video made by insurgents when small IED made by mortar exploded just next to M1's tracks, again, I doubt that crew even noticed that their vehicle was targeted.

 

[Dazzler]

type-99 with 140mm smoothbore gun, this was a prototype but no such gun has been seen in service Type-99A2s

 

[cobra commando]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lWn_NhYzD_Y

 

[Damian]

type-99 with 140mm smoothbore gun, this was a prototype but no such gun has been seen in service Type-99A2s

And how do you know this is a 140mm gun?

What, Chinese told you? I can't believe how naive you are.

It is standard 125mm most likely, as there is no proof that Chinese ever successfully created a 140mm, not to mention that storage of huge 140mm rounds inside a cramped ZTZ-99 interior would be a pain in the ass and the complete ammo storage would be most likely reduced to the point of absurd.

And to show you why.

This is a 140mm two piece APFSDS round for US XM291 140mm smoothbore gun, note, it is a two piece round, and compare it to a unitary 120mm APFSDS for US M256 120mm smoothbore gun.

And even despite a fact that XM291 was a bicalliber weapon with a common breach block for a 120mm and 140mm barrels, there were still problems to fit this beast in to M1 tanks tandard turret, new turret was nececary.

So again, please by a use of logic, how Chinese could fit a huge gun with huge ammunition inside a tank that have interior volume smaller than M1, and does not have a turret with turret bustle where autoloader and ammunition could be stored?

Don't you see that this whole story about Chinese 140mm or even bigger calliber guns does not fit within frames of logical thinking?

Even Russians never seriously considered such big weapons for their existing tanks, but for future tanks with unmanned turret and internal volume big enough to keep such things inside.

And there are more problems. AZ autoloader capacity for 125mm rouns i 22 rounds/propelant charges, how much reduced it would be in case of 140mm calliber? Below 20 rounds? And there are also dimensions, how much turret floor should be raised so these rounds could be stored and how much avaiable space for crew members would be reduced?

These are obviously problems not considered by people who blindly believe in silly Chinese propaganda.

 

[Dazzler]

And how do you know this is a 140mm gun?

What, Chinese told you? I can't believe how naive you are.

It is standard 125mm most likely, as there is no proof that Chinese ever successfully created a 140mm, not to mention that storage of huge 140mm rounds inside a cramped ZTZ-99 interior would be a pain in the ass and the complete ammo storage would be most likely reduced to the point of absurd.

And to show you why.

This is a 140mm two piece APFSDS round for US XM291 140mm smoothbore gun, note, it is a two piece round, and compare it to a unitary 120mm APFSDS for US M256 120mm smoothbore gun.

And even despite a fact that XM291 was a bicalliber weapon with a common breach block for a 120mm and 140mm barrels, there were still problems to fit this beast in to M1 tanks tandard turret, new turret was nececary.

So again, please by a use of logic, how Chinese could fit a huge gun with huge ammunition inside a tank that have interior volume smaller than M1, and does not have a turret with turret bustle where autoloader and ammunition could be stored?

Don't you see that this whole story about Chinese 140mm or even bigger calliber guns does not fit within frames of logical thinking?

Even Russians never seriously considered such big weapons for their existing tanks, but for future tanks with unmanned turret and internal volume big enough to keep such things inside.

And there are more problems. AZ autoloader capacity for 125mm rouns i 22 rounds/propelant charges, how much reduced it would be in case of 140mm calliber? Below 20 rounds? And there are also dimensions, how much turret floor should be raised so these rounds could be stored and how much avaiable space for crew members would be reduced?

These are obviously problems not considered by people who blindly believe in silly Chinese propaganda.

the tank in the pic does not have an autoloader

 

[Damian]

Which would be even more idiotic. Human loader takes a lot of internal volume with ammo racks. In such cramped interior, human loader becomes inefficent. Ammo racks space is also limited, and loader itself would have problems to even load such huge rounds.

And again, how do you know it does not have autoloader? You seen interior or perhaps some Chinese fanboy told you?

Naive people... sigh...

 

[Austin]

Uraltransmash began producing artillery installation "Coalition-SV"

http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/47280/

It appears from conversation they have cancelled the double barrel due to Cost and Weight reason and moved to single Barrel.

 

[Dazzler]

Which would be even more idiotic. Human loader takes a lot of internal volume with ammo racks. In such cramped interior, human loader becomes inefficent. Ammo racks space is also limited, and loader itself would have problems to even load such huge rounds.

And again, how do you know it does not have autoloader? You seen interior or perhaps some Chinese fanboy told you?

Naive people... sigh...

did you miss the word "prototype" ?

 

[militarysta]

@Damian
@Dazzler

Both of you can continous the topic in topic about gun and amunition?
I will post there somthnh interesting.

ps. Damian this tank on photo can have come prototype 140mm gun only to test forces (KNs) durign shooting or somethink like that...


ps. Confirm (konwn designation ammo or gun photos) bigger then 120/125mm gun we have in:

- USA
- Greate Brittan
- France
- Swizterland
- Germany
PROPABLY in Sweeden
- Ukraina
- Russia
(generally Soviet Union)

so China is possible in some way...as prototypes of course

 

[Damian]

did you miss the word "prototype" ?

Idiotic prototype, if it really existed. And you know what, I don't blindly and naively believe in what Chinese say. In fact this might not be even a prototype to test a big calliber tank gun, but some other idea. Did you even considered such possibility, or it was "oh, yeah, Chinese said it is a prototype with 140mm gun, oh I'm so excited, I need to show this to other and say to them that this is 140mm Chinese gun!!!"...

ps. Damian this tank on photo can have come prototype 140mm gun only to test forces (KNs) durign shooting or somethink like that...

I don't see any kind of logic in testing a gun that would be problematic in use for such small platform.

 

[militarysta]

Acually I don't see "fascinated by chinesee 140mm Dazzler user"...

Dazller post this as somthing interesting, and IMHO sucht test tank and test 140mm is possible. Why not? The same scenario was in NATO countries in end of the 1980s...

 

[Dazzler]

Acually I don't see "fascinated by chinesee 140mm Dazzler user"...

Dazller post this as somthing interesting, and IMHO sucht test tank and test 140mm is possible. Why not? The same scenario was in NATO countries in end of the 1980s...

thanks militarysta, that was the intention i.e. interesting

 

[Damian]

I am sceptical about Chinese. There is no proof that vehicle on posted photo is 140mm gun.

 

[Dazzler]

some interesting footage, development of type-99 mbt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2PlM_R7000

 

[militarysta]

I don't see any kind of logic in testing a gun that would be problematic in use for such small platform.

Sure? So how you explain 152mm on Ob.292 (leningrad)? Or in Swizterland leo-2A4 when only one component (propelant charge) had autoloader and catrige 140mm was loaded manually?

IMHO test station have nothing common whit normal tank, and for example Chineese industry just check how big forcess will exist in 140mm gun on typical ZTZ-99 chassis and turret. Just test station.