Lockheed Eyes Tata to Help Land Next Big India Warplane Deal

[smestarz]

It is not the Chinese but our own IAF people which had blocked the possible offer of Su-35 saying that we already have Su-30 MKI, why do we need another, Also the IAF had earlier told the govt that they want a "medium" and "non Russian plane" . But this is old news, ACM Raha is already well briefed about the position of the govt and how he is expected to lead the forces. IAF top brass already have no say in Tejas (they did not want Tejas to start with) With instructions such as " use Tejas, if not, get the hell our of our force"

I think Chinese maybe blocking su35 sale to India . Chinese have a lot more pull with Russians in defense then India acknowledges


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[raja696]

It is not the Chinese but our own IAF people which had blocked the possible offer of Su-35 saying that we already have Su-30 MKI, why do we need another, Also the IAF had earlier told the govt that they want a "medium" and "non Russian plane" . But this is old news, ACM Raha is already well briefed about the position of the govt and how he is expected to lead the forces. IAF top brass already have no say in Tejas (they did not want Tejas to start with) With instructions such as " use Tejas, if not, get the hell our of our force"

Every time i read any article about indigenisation of air force , the only obstacle i come across is air force itself directly or indirectly. I dont doubt there integrity but there intentions in every level are sabotaging lca program is obvious. It disappoints deeply even our first defense is corrupted by our politicians, but it does nt mean people like tyagi are just scape goats... they have to be punished severely and even now they are defending heads behind corruption which is rediculous.

 

[smestarz]

One cannot be a super power on borrowed weapons, No counntry in the history of the world has become super power with weapons purchased from others, They have borrowed technology and ideas and then used their own ideas to develop what they require. Its from time of Alexander to the Russians and Americans. If you see carefully then either our Defence chiefs are either naive or they dont truly believe in India being a super power themselves.
Our defence chiefs are talking about the forces being the movers and shakers .. Navy talks of CBG that can dominate oceans, we talk of Air force that can have air dominance in any area we choose (in our neigbhourhood) and we talk of army that wants to be so strong that on hearing our units have taken the field the enemy becomes half hearted. But at the same time, they hope to to do that with weapons purchased from others. So would you really call such such as LEADERS?
They lack the vision to lead.

Rather only if the forces actually work closely with the industry to initially start the process of development, and buy the products and then demand to crank up to get better products. For example when your child is small, and cannot talk, you dont leave the child alone simply as it can talk, it needs care and nuture, and that is what Indian defence forces lack, Indian defence industry is like a child and it needs inputs and support for projects, but defence forces prefer to look at someone elses child because its cute, blue eyed and can talk.

The defence should be independent of political influence, when the defence appointments are at the discretion of politicians, this is what is going to happen. Tyagi is not the scapegoat, if his relatives got the money, surely there was some involvemnt from his side, Tyagi is at a cross road where he can accept the blame and point fingers at his political masters and provide some closure from the services. If he prefers to protect his political masters he ends up actually putting the forces in bad light. Now, which indian is going to take the defence chiefs seriously. Even I question the ACM when he says Rafale is the plane for India. Why is he so eager for "Medium" its not a boxing match that we have heavy and medium. India and most of the world purchases planes as per the capability and the role of the plane and of course the price, but its odd when one plane is considered the best because it falls in a weight category. feels ridiculous.

The onus is on Tyagi if he wants to be the fall guy and protects his politcal masters who are also on decline and makes the countrymen question the intention of evry defence procurement. Or to come out clean and help to clean the defence from Pimps and politicans and of course some defence chiefs who manipulate deals and cost govt millions in cost and maybe billions for purchasing perhaps the wrong plane all because some politicain wanted kickbacks and did not bother what it costs the country. VIP Chopper scam the commission was roughly 12% and the price of the chopper as per CAG was 5 times the marked price !!! See how much it costs the country??

Every time i read any article about indigenisation of air force , the only obstacle i come across is air force itself directly or indirectly. I dont doubt there integrity but there intentions in every level are sabotaging lca program is obvious. It disappoints deeply even our first defense is corrupted by our politicians, but it does nt mean people like tyagi are just scape goats... they have to be punished severely and even now they are defending heads behind corruption which is rediculous.

 

[smestarz]

One cannot be a super power on borrowed weapons, No counntry in the history of the world has become super power with weapons purchased from others, They have borrowed technology and ideas and then used their own ideas to develop what they require. Its from time of Alexander to the Russians and Americans. If you see carefully then either our Defence chiefs are either naive or they dont truly believe in India being a super power themselves.
Our defence chiefs are talking about the forces being the movers and shakers .. Navy talks of CBG that can dominate oceans, we talk of Air force that can have air dominance in any area we choose (in our neigbhourhood) and we talk of army that wants to be so strong that on hearing our units have taken the field the enemy becomes half hearted. But at the same time, they hope to to do that with weapons purchased from others. So would you really call such such as LEADERS?
They lack the vision to lead.

Rather only if the forces actually work closely with the industry to initially start the process of development, and buy the products and then demand to crank up to get better products. For example when your child is small, and cannot talk, you dont leave the child alone simply as it can talk, it needs care and nuture, and that is what Indian defence forces lack, Indian defence industry is like a child and it needs inputs and support for projects, but defence forces prefer to look at someone elses child because its cute, blue eyed and can talk.

The defence should be independent of political influence, when the defence appointments are at the discretion of politicians, this is what is going to happen. Tyagi is not the scapegoat, if his relatives got the money, surely there was some involvemnt from his side, Tyagi is at a cross road where he can accept the blame and point fingers at his political masters and provide some closure from the services. If he prefers to protect his political masters he ends up actually putting the forces in bad light. Now, which indian is going to take the defence chiefs seriously. Even I question the ACM when he says Rafale is the plane for India. Why is he so eager for "Medium" its not a boxing match that we have heavy and medium. India and most of the world purchases planes as per the capability and the role of the plane and of course the price, but its odd when one plane is considered the best because it falls in a weight category. feels ridiculous.

The onus is on Tyagi if he wants to be the fall guy and protects his politcal masters who are also on decline and makes the countrymen question the intention of evry defence procurement. Or to come out clean and help to clean the defence from Pimps and politicans and of course some defence chiefs who manipulate deals and cost govt millions in cost and maybe billions for purchasing perhaps the wrong plane all because some politicain wanted kickbacks and did not bother what it costs the country. VIP Chopper scam the commission was roughly 12% and the price of the chopper as per CAG was 5 times the marked price !!! See how much it costs the country??

Every time i read any article about indigenisation of air force , the only obstacle i come across is air force itself directly or indirectly. I dont doubt there integrity but there intentions in every level are sabotaging lca program is obvious. It disappoints deeply even our first defense is corrupted by our politicians, but it does nt mean people like tyagi are just scape goats... they have to be punished severely and even now they are defending heads behind corruption which is rediculous.

Every time i read any article about indigenisation of air force , the only obstacle i come across is air force itself directly or indirectly. I dont doubt there integrity but there intentions in every level are sabotaging lca program is obvious. It disappoints deeply even our first defense is corrupted by our politicians, but it does nt mean people like tyagi are just scape goats... they have to be punished severely and even now they are defending heads behind corruption which is rediculous.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Actually the dumb Defense minister giving multiple ideas in the context

What he says LCA and another single engine fighter to replace MiG 21

Also

India will buy Rafale and build another twin engine fighter in India

He never mentions the PAK FA anywhere

No he is not. He is smartest of all. He is keeping everyone (powerful and very influential arms lobby) in false loop while going all out to bring Tejas into service. I am sure he will keep everyone interested untill air clears on MK-2 version. And when MK-2 is ready he will quitely say F**k off to all single engine vendors. I am very sure of he pushing MK-2 development as hard as he pushed MK-1A proposal.

As for twin engine version. I am very confident of it being F-18. As it gives us many benefits like greater ToT in F-414 project( yes by USA standards), development of its TVC version for AMCA, a second production line or better say another aviation company other than HAL albeit smaller, in addition to being equally capable yet cheaper M-MRCA than Rafale for IAF.

 

[sasum]

No he is not. He is smartest of all. He is keeping everyone (powerful and very influential arms lobby) in false loop while going all out to bring Tejas into service. I am sure he will keep everyone interested untill air clears on MK-2 version. And when MK-2 is ready he will quitely say F**k off to all single engine vendors. I am very sure of he pushing MK-2 development as hard as he pushed MK-1A proposal.

As for twin engine version. I am very confident of it being F-18. As it gives us many benefits like greater ToT in F-414 project( yes by USA standards), development of its TVC version for AMCA, a second production line or better say another aviation company other than HAL albeit smaller, in addition to being equally capable yet cheaper M-MRCA than Rafale for IAF.

Has any country bought Super Hornet yet? Its Naval version is very good but AF version is not so for air-to-air role. MRCA tech evaluation rejected it on this ground. Rafale has at least two customers, but too early to get feedback. Dassault supplied one plane to Egypt and none to Qatar. Let Rafale mature and ripen with time, then India should think of buying in large numbers.
For now India should concentrate on SU-30 upgrade, Tejas MK II and sort out problems with Russia regarding FGFA. From all accounts, western commentators included, Pak-Fa is shaping up well.

 

[smestarz]

US navy uses on its carrier and Royal Australian Air force uses Super hornet. The super hornet and most American planes now, are not designed for dog fighting, they are designed to target the enemy from distance and then take them out from distance, But they also have few AIM-9X missiles just in case they get into a dog fight.
For carrier use there are very few planes available as of now, Rafale M, F/A-18 E/F and MiG-29K, there is always the F-35 but which is considered the future for carrier force of USA. If you go by the customer use etc, then its best to go for Su-35, we already have lines ready, we have the over haul facility, we have the spares etc. For MiG-35 we have the supplier chain for spares already available,. Rafale is a good plane but then the cost of buying, flying and maintaining it is going to be very high. So in two phrases NO VALUE FOR MONEY, and no bang for buck. And Rafale is more like " .. 4 anne ki murgi aur bara anne ka masala" or "khaya peeya kuch nahi, glass toda, bara anna"

Su-30 MKI upgrade will come after GaN based AESA radar is available for Su-30 MKI as that will give it a big leap and truly well ahead of itc competitors

Has any country bought Super Hornet yet? Its Naval version is very good but AF version is not so for air-to-air role. MRCA tech evaluation rejected it on this ground. Rafale has at least two customers, but too early to get feedback. Dassault supplied one plane to Egypt and none to Qatar. Let Rafale mature and ripen with time, then India should think of buying in large numbers.
For now India should concentrate on SU-30 upgrade, Tejas MK II and sort out problems with Russia regarding FGFA. From all accounts, western commentators included, Pak-Fa is shaping up well.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Has any country bought Super Hornet yet? Its Naval version is very good but AF version is not so for air-to-air role. MRCA tech evaluation rejected it on this ground. Rafale has at least two customers, but too early to get feedback. Dassault supplied one plane to Egypt and none to Qatar. Let Rafale mature and ripen with time, then India should think of buying in large numbers.
For now India should concentrate on SU-30 upgrade, Tejas MK II and sort out problems with Russia regarding FGFA. From all accounts, western commentators included, Pak-Fa is shaping up well.

For start Australia is one coustomer of F/A -18.

F/A is only fighter in group to have a dedicated EW version named Growler.

F-18 has future in its stealth version program called Advanced Super Hornet. This is where others are far behind.

F-18 may not be a good dog fighter. But its A2A sensors and weapon package is mature. We can always work towards getting a lighter airframe with an uprated engine. An engine program is already on table.Together they will make it a better dog fighter.

SU-35s or more SU-30MKIs are all logical options. But for explicit reasons Government is inclined more towards American option for meeting twin engine requirements than others . One of it is securing powerplant for future projects namely LCA MK-2 and AMCA.

I don't think USA is giving you sufficient ToT unless we make offer too tempting for them to ignore. Following is as how.

120 F-18s x 2 x 3 equals 720 F-414s for F-18 fleet alone. 120 LCA MK-2 + 60 NLCA MK-2 requirement is 180 x 3 = 540 F-414 IN S6s. 400 IAF AMCA plus 100 NAMCA is 1000 F-414 X version ( considering a Kaveri version replaces F-414 during first engine replacement). That's total of 2200 GE F-414 engines.

I am sure this volume is good enough to squeeze something critical in TOT aggrement. And exactly it is where F-18 option defeats other options.

 

[SajeevJino]

No he is not. He is smartest of all. He is keeping everyone (powerful and very influential arms lobby) in false loop while going all out to bring Tejas into service. I am sure he will keep everyone interested untill air clears on MK-2 version. And when MK-2 is ready he will quitely say F**k off to all single engine vendors. I am very sure of he pushing MK-2 development as hard as he pushed MK-1A proposal.

As for twin engine version. I am very confident of it being F-18. As it gives us many benefits like greater ToT in F-414 project( yes by USA standards), development of its TVC version for AMCA, a second production line or better say another aviation company other than HAL albeit smaller, in addition to being equally capable yet cheaper M-MRCA than Rafale for IAF.

Disagree ..

Actually the game is almost running on wrong side
The Tejas yet to get the BVR capability, and some other EW suites, So ADA brings another concept in the Tejas in the name of MK1A ..this will give enough time to ADA to study further on missile integration on Tejas, and they ADA advertising as AESA makes the MK1A superior, Reality is IAF need a better Tejas with EW suites and BVR

The MK2 concept is almost over, its the navy only currently active on that Program, since IAF skipped into AMCA

I too happy if IAF selected the ASH, But I believe during the MMRCA evaluation the EFT and Rafale beats the F 18

 

[Rahul Singh]

Disagree ..

Actually the game is almost running on wrong side
The Tejas yet to get the BVR capability, and some other EW suites, So ADA brings another concept in the Tejas in the name of MK1A ..this will give enough time to ADA to study further on missile integration on Tejas, and they ADA advertising as AESA makes the MK1A superior, Reality is IAF need a better Tejas with EW suites and BVR.

The MK2 concept is almost over, its the navy only currently active on that Program, since IAF skipped into AMCA

No, it's not.

BVR testing has already begun. First unguided launch was to test safe separation. Next phase of tests will aim at guided launchs. Then there will be validation trials with PTA as target.

Thing is, there is series of tests to carry out and it will spread over entire 2016 and will be carried out on priority basis. Since Derby's integration with ELTA MMR is not even an issue let alone any challenge, it is waste of time if someone is worrying over BVR.

EW suit comprises of RWR, MAWS, Counter measure dispensers and a SPJ. And of these, MK-1 has everything except MAWS and SPJ. But hey, MK-1 can always carry a SPJ on special pod mount paylon that is there under port side air intake. EL/L - 8212 which is there on BIS models of Mig-21s is the the preferred choice. Again, its integration won't even be an issue, because Tejas has open architecture and HAL has experience in its integration on Mig-21 bis.

Only question that lingers, is whether to go for a pod mount option --thereby engaging an station in this case one which usually carries a EL/OP-- or hard mount it on wing tips in MK-1As? But so much of time has passed since this question was in the open media. I am sure they must have reached to a decision by now.

LSP-7 is already under going modification for installation of IFR. In July ground tests will begin. Post monsoon will see in flight tests and trials.

Isreali AESA mmr will be a game changer. Considering MK-1A will be first IAF jet fighter to have active AESA.

Sum total of all that has been said above is.

# Work on MK-1A is going a pace. MK-1A is the best model or version possible of MK-1 type. And good enough for low penetration strike, forward level action and in the role fighter interceptor.

# MK-2 IAF with 0.5 m longer fugelage was a waste of time, efforts and money. It was an ill conceived proposal. IAF was thinking that just a powerful engine will give performance they like. But unanswered question was what about extra fuel load that will be needed? Its good that it has been buried. By reducing weight and through design optimization, HAL is giving IAF, MK-2 kind of performance in MK-1 with MK-1A. Mind you Naval MK-2 with 1.2 m longer fugelage is very much a new design. In contrast IAF MK-2 was just a re-engined version.

# IAF can try skip LCA and try to jump to AMCA straight. But by doing so it will only display its naivness in understanding a development process. You can sit in B.Tech finals without getting through +2 board exam, can you? Crude analogy! Yeah. But put it in contrast with Navy. Navy knows, LCA won't be deployed on INS Vishal. Best figure Navy will order won't exceed 100. Yet it is supporting program so much so that it ordered 8 MK-1s just to stabilize its production. Went on to get a almost new design in MK-2. Definitely Navy knows that no skyscraper can be erected without putting necessary foundation. I could go so far to say, without a naval program LCA program would have been dead.

And yeah let IAF skip and jump. After all it is doing it since Marut days. So much for IAF's want for control over air assets of sister services.

But I believe during the MMRCA evaluation the EFT and Rafale beats the F 18

Doesn't matter! In face of upcoming chinese 5th gen fighters non is frontline.

So what we do? Get value for money deal. Rafale is ridiculously costly. SH is cheap. SH has future in ASH, Rafale has none. SH engine is same as NLCA MK-2, hence good bargain on TOT, better product support for fleet (considering HAL will be producing F-414). Since AMCA will fly too on F-414, nothing could be better than SH at this point.

Bottomline.

As long as PAF or/and PLAAF does/do not acquire Rafale, (again) it does not matter who has beaten whome.

 

[SajeevJino]

No, it's not.

A better good post in DFI after so long time .. Thanks, anyway I too have some oppions

BVR testing has already begun. First unguided launch was to test safe separation. Next phase of tests will aim at guided launchs. Then there will be validation trials with PTA as target.

Thing is, there is series of tests to carry out and it will spread over entire 2016 and will be carried out on priority basis. Since Derby's integration with ELTA MMR is not even an issue let alone any challenge, it is waste of time if someone is worrying over BVR.

Yes agreed, the carriage trails has been done, and we are waiting for further, what I suspecting is why do they take such long time for this ..

EW suit comprises of RWR, MAWS, Counter measure dispensers and a SPJ. And of these, MK-1 has everything except MAWS and SPJ. But hey, MK-1 can always carry a SPJ on special pod mount paylon that is there under port side air intake. EL/L - 8212 which is there on BIS models of Mig-21s is the the preferred choice. Again, its integration won't even be an issue, because Tejas has open architecture and HAL has experience in its integration on Mig-21 bis.

No MAWS..you sure about that, then how the CM will be dispensed on correct time when missile comes close to the fighter

on SPJ, pod mounted is a better option
]

 

[Rahul Singh]

Yes agreed, the carriage trails has been done, and we are waiting for further, what I suspecting is why do they take such long time for this ..

See, they had to change the Radome midway. That must have upset the schedule. They will have to re-test and re-validate MMR first for entire spectrum before conducting anymore AAM tests.

It's not just Derby but Python V is also in line.

But this is only one of the factors, as i suspect. I think LSP-7 is undergoing modifications for MK-1A trials. Possibly for maintenance and turn around. Notably LSP-8 is undergoing modifications for IFR tests. There is also higher possiblity of both LSP-7&8 going complete modification to comply with MK-1A standards.

Post monsoon session will be hectic. Mark my word.

No MAWS..you sure about that, then how the CM will be dispensed on correct time when missile comes close to the fighter

As far as i know. No, no MAWS in MK-1 (IOC std.). CM will be dispensed manually by pilot. May be FOC standard MK-1 will have one. MK-1A will surely have one.

on SPJ, pod mounted is a better option
]

Pod mounted SPJ will occupy one station. Which will be either EL\OP pod station or WVRAAM station. Not good for a light fighter. But can't help it. A wing tip version like one is there on Eurofighter will require a lot of re-testing.

So i also prefer pod mount version but on twin mount paylon. Hope they have sorted it out already.

 

[Anikastha]

I think Indian Army should have dedicated aircraft like globemaster / Hercules.
No need to wait for Airforce at peek and critical time.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00LD using Tapatalk

 

[Rahul Singh]

I think Indian Army should have dedicated aircraft like globemaster / Hercules.
No need to wait for Airforce at peek and critical time.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00LD using Tapatalk

Army needs dedicated attack air crafts like SU-34 and A-10. USAF is retiring their A-10 which have good amount of life life left. Getting two squardons of A-10 will come of great help to Army's Cold Start doctrine.

But IAF will oppose any such move. Hell! IAF even wanted control over Naval Air Arm.

 

[Anikastha]

Army needs dedicated attack air crafts like SU-34 and A-10. USAF is retiring their A-10 which have good amount of life life left. Getting two squardons of A-10 will come of great help to Army's Cold Start doctrine.

But IAF will oppose any such move. Hell! IAF even wanted control over Naval Air Arm.

Leave air superiority role to IAF and Ground bombing to army/ navy...its better. Iaf shouldn't behave like school kid.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00LD using Tapatalk

 

[Rahul Singh]

Leave air superiority role to IAF and Ground bombing to army/ navy...its better. Iaf shouldn't behave like school kid.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00LD using Tapatalk

Recently IAF was opposing IA's purchase of Apache attack helicopters. Which is purely tank buster. I don't understand why in Hell IAF wants to fly anti tank helicopters when it will always be better if pilot at controls understands men he is supporting from air. In fact attack helicopters should be totally embedded with armoured regiments. Specifically those tasked with offensive roles.

 

[Anikastha]

Recently IAF was opposing IA's purchase of Apache attack helicopters. Which is purely tank buster. I don't understand why in Hell IAF wants to fly anti tank helicopters when it will always be better if pilot at controls understands men he is supporting from air. In fact attack helicopters should be totally embedded with armoured regiments. Specifically those tasked with offensive roles.

Crazy protecting angels.
Some won't wear bullet proof jackets...
Some love foreign maal.
Really..I feeel proud of them.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00LD using Tapatalk

 

[Zebra]

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/06/lockheed-may-shift-f-35-fighter-work.html

 

[shankyz]

No, it's not.

BVR testing has already begun. First unguided launch was to test safe separation. Next phase of tests will aim at guided launchs. Then there will be validation trials with PTA as target.

Thing is, there is series of tests to carry out and it will spread over entire 2016 and will be carried out on priority basis. Since Derby's integration with ELTA MMR is not even an issue let alone any challenge, it is waste of time if someone is worrying over BVR.

EW suit comprises of RWR, MAWS, Counter measure dispensers and a SPJ. And of these, MK-1 has everything except MAWS and SPJ. But hey, MK-1 can always carry a SPJ on special pod mount paylon that is there under port side air intake. EL/L - 8212 which is there on BIS models of Mig-21s is the the preferred choice. Again, its integration won't even be an issue, because Tejas has open architecture and HAL has experience in its integration on Mig-21 bis.

Only question that lingers, is whether to go for a pod mount option --thereby engaging an station in this case one which usually carries a EL/OP-- or hard mount it on wing tips in MK-1As? But so much of time has passed since this question was in the open media. I am sure they must have reached to a decision by now.

LSP-7 is already under going modification for installation of IFR. In July ground tests will begin. Post monsoon will see in flight tests and trials.

Isreali AESA mmr will be a game changer. Considering MK-1A will be first IAF jet fighter to have active AESA.

Sum total of all that has been said above is.

# Work on MK-1A is going a pace. MK-1A is the best model or version possible of MK-1 type. And good enough for low penetration strike, forward level action and in the role fighter interceptor.

# MK-2 IAF with 0.5 m longer fugelage was a waste of time, efforts and money. It was an ill conceived proposal. IAF was thinking that just a powerful engine will give performance they like. But unanswered question was what about extra fuel load that will be needed? Its good that it has been buried. By reducing weight and through design optimization, HAL is giving IAF, MK-2 kind of performance in MK-1 with MK-1A. Mind you Naval MK-2 with 1.2 m longer fugelage is very much a new design. In contrast IAF MK-2 was just a re-engined version.

# IAF can try skip LCA and try to jump to AMCA straight. But by doing so it will only display its naivness in understanding a development process. You can sit in B.Tech finals without getting through +2 board exam, can you? Crude analogy! Yeah. But put it in contrast with Navy. Navy knows, LCA won't be deployed on INS Vishal. Best figure Navy will order won't exceed 100. Yet it is supporting program so much so that it ordered 8 MK-1s just to stabilize its production. Went on to get a almost new design in MK-2. Definitely Navy knows that no skyscraper can be erected without putting necessary foundation. I could go so far to say, without a naval program LCA program would have been dead.

And yeah let IAF skip and jump. After all it is doing it since Marut days. So much for IAF's want for control over air assets of sister services.

Doesn't matter! In face of upcoming chinese 5th gen fighters non is frontline.

So what we do? Get value for money deal. Rafale is ridiculously costly. SH is cheap. SH has future in ASH, Rafale has none. SH engine is same as NLCA MK-2, hence good bargain on TOT, better product support for fleet (considering HAL will be producing F-414). Since AMCA will fly too on F-414, nothing could be better than SH at this point.

Bottomline.

As long as PAF or/and PLAAF does/do not acquire Rafale, (again) it does not matter who has beaten whome.

Also, SH is twin-engine.

SH can be tested in IN SBTF & deployed with Navy Aircraft Carriers without hassle

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy J7