Liogkiy Mnogofunktsionalniy Frontovoi Samolyot (LMFS), a MIG and ADA production

ppgj

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MCA is supposed to be stealth , but india doesn't have any experience with RAM , any idea where we plan to get that tech from?
it is worth noting, drdo has been doing work on this.

Another defence the missile has, is the application of a special type of radar absorbing paint to reduce radar signature.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/ballistic/prithvi.html

that is with reference to prithvi missile which can be replicated on to MCA too.

i was browsing and found this which is very old but very interesting -

Stealth aircraft achieves 94% radar invisibility

Rakshit Sonawane

NASHIK, December 31: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the Indian Air Force (IAF) jointly experimenting with the development of a Stealth aircraft, have achieved 94 per cent of radar invisibility.

According to Squadron Leader K P Gawd (from 7 Base Repair Dept, Air Force Station, Tughlakabad), who presented a paper on "Steps towards fabrication of an invisible aircraft" at the 13th National Convention of Aerospace Engineers held at the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) complex at Ojhar, a breakthrough had been achieved during experiments involving two scale models of an aircraft. According to Squadron Leader Gewd, Time Domain and Frequency Domain methods were used in addition to the two antenna method to determine radar invisibility and a 94 per cent invisibility was achieved. Efforts are being made to reduce the Radar Cross Section (RCS) signature of the aircraft to reduce detection by an enemy radar. The process is to coat an object with radar absorbing materials, which absorb energy from electromagnetic fields passing through them. Such materials have complex indices of refraction, which include magnetic and electric effects. There are two kinds of such materials-narrow band absorbers and broad bad absorbers. Besides, body shaping, impedance leading and chiroshield play a crucial role in fabricating an invisible aircraft. The DRDO and the IAF used an absorber having electromagnetic properties in KU band, following the two antenna method (spectrum Analyser) the time domain method and the frequency domain method. The drawbacks experienced were the RCS isolation error and the frequency response error. The former was caused by leakage between the antenna while the latter by non ideal frequency response of the cables, connectors, couplers and antennas. The errors were subsequently rectified and zero reflection for all frequencies achieved.

The development of an invisible aircraft is being done on the lines of the B 2 Stealth Bomber of the United States Air Force. Experts believe thatit is possible to make retroreflectors such as ship and submarines invisible to sonars.

Copyright © 1998 Indian Express Newspapers
http://www.indianexpress.com/old/ie/daily/19980101/00150614.html

besides india has composites technology which is part of LCA and also HAL manufactured SU 30MKI's will have more composites built in them. india infact will be contributing to PAKFA on this.

so india has tech. besides FGFA experience will also contribute in terms of RAM, i guess.
 

Rahul Singh

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Lets not involve russians in this. they have been supportive and have provided high tech when none did.
Yes because India is the largest defence market for Russia and they know if they do not throw these sweets then India will divert towards other options like west or indigenous development. Worst of all is that US have NATO and others to bag enough orders to keep their factories running, minus India Russia do not have anything similar. So, like PPGJ said, its a game of mutual beneficiaries............... Even after saying all this, i must accept that i do thanks Russia for its help but i'm not ready to bow down too much for saying so.

MCA is supposed to be stealth , but india doesn't have any experience with RAM , any idea where we plan to get that tech from?
DRDO is not new to composite airframe technology and for past 5 years they are busy in developing them further to make fighter jet's airframe more transparent to radar. Besides this, they have already developed special paints for reducing RCS of serving IAF fighters. Recent developments in EW sector by DRDO in addition to above suggest that today DRDO is capable enough to roll out a 5th generation stealth fighter of MK-1 level....................... Just speculating. I think LCH could possibly be the testing ground for radar absorbing materials. Saying so, because LCH sports basic stealth features like angled nose and outer surface.

Low Observable Technologies

No single material can cater to the varied requirements of entire gamut Electromagnetic spectrum. Understanding interaction of EM radiation with materials plays a significant role in the design and development of functionally suitable material/structures for low observability. It is desirable to have theoretical basis available for design of complex materials to get desired absorbance in broad frequency range, that will help to formulate suitable material composition and their composites for EM absorbers.

Research areas of interest are

(a) Synthesis and characterization of New Material such as Ferroelectrics, Ferromagnetic, conducting polymer and chiral for use as pigments/dyes/paint formulation

(b) Optimization of materials and technologies such as combination of different pigments in single/multi-layer, graded impedence matching, use of frequency selective surfaces through numerical modeling and simulations

(c) Simulation and modeling of materials for Low observability.

(d) Radar Absorbing and Optical Transparent (RAOT) materials

(e) Active Camouflage/Cloaking Devices

(f) Structural modification for low observability

http://www.drdo.org/eripr/moredetails.htm
 
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lodaxstax

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Yes because India is the largest defence market for Russia and they know if they do not throw these sweets then India will divert towards other options like west or indigenous development. Worst of all is that US have NATO and others to bag enough orders to keep their factories running, minus India Russia do not have anything similar. So, like PPGJ said, its a game of mutual beneficiaries............... Even after saying all this, i must accept that i do thanks Russia for its help but i'm not ready to bow down too much for saying so.

Negative. Every relationship is based on mutual benefit so there's nothing surprising here. And besides the sweets which russians have been 'throwing' at us really do taste good(Arihant). US is not offering its cutting edge tech to even its closest of allies whereas russians have ben generous enough to provide us with their latest. heck even collaborate and work on their latest(PAK-FA). So its not entirely a buyer- seller relation. they have been good to us o nmore occaions than one.
 

Rahul Singh

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Negative. Every relationship is based on mutual benefit so there's nothing surprising here. And besides the sweets which russians have been 'throwing' at us really do taste good(Arihant). US is not offering its cutting edge tech to even its closest of allies whereas russians have ben generous enough to provide us with their latest. heck even collaborate and work on their latest(PAK-FA). So its not entirely a buyer- seller relation. they have been good to us o nmore occaions than one.
Like i said they can't afford to lose the market. Below is what which can not be called totally related but has something significant to show.

Viktor Komardin, the chief of Russian export controller, Rosoboronexport, pointed out that nobody had consulted Russia. Komardin said, “Is this legal? Is this ethical? Is this proper? If India wants a real simulator, it should be asked for from Russia itself.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/02/russia-objects-to-t-72t-90-simulators.html
 

VayuSena1

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I think we have had enough of these sort of deals already due to which indigenous industry is being harmed. There are two ways to deal with this:

1) Say no thanks to our Russian friends and continue to build up on the project MCA fighter programme

2) ADA formally invites MiG to join hands in the MCA project as a second partner.

There is no other way to deal with this.
 

Agantrope

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We need this tech
1) Like in Brahmos we spinoff Shaurya, so it will be a good learning curve for indians.
2) Indigineous doest starts at home so soon :D
 

lodaxstax

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I think we have had enough of these sort of deals already due to which indigenous industry is being harmed. There are two ways to deal with this:

1) Say no thanks to our Russian friends and continue to build up on the project MCA fighter programme

2) ADA formally invites MiG to join hands in the MCA project as a second partner.

There is no other way to deal with this.
As much as I would wish it could be 1, with chipandas propping up pakis and arming north east borders to the hilt, i think the threat is very real and the need to address it even more urgent, so would rather go with second option. Invite them to join the INDIAN programme and develop 5th gen INDIAN fighter. MiG gets money ( much needed) and recognition( Su taking the wind out of them with PAKFA) so they will be happy to oblige. India get own 5th gen craft, know how, independence in higher curve of technology. And like agantrope said, we can always have Indigenous spin offs later on.
 

gb009

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What would we gain by involving MIG in MCA or taking part in LMFS?
MIG has not worked on stealth fighter. Our Kaveri engine would probably be ready and powerful enough for MCA (with snecma help). DRDO seems confident of making AESA (with help from ELTA or without it). Lot of posters have already posted links to work being carried out by DRDO on RAM/stealth etc.

The only fear I have is that things should not go the kaveri/MMR way. DRDO was confident of developing these but had to seek external help in the end. So unless there is some official information from DRDO on how their work on stealth/RAM has been used in LCA/FGFA (and how much it helped reduce the RCS etc) I would not believe these reports fully.
 

sunnyv

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What would we gain by involving MIG in MCA or taking part in LMFS?
MIG has not worked on stealth fighter. Our Kaveri engine would probably be ready and powerful enough for MCA (with snecma help). DRDO seems confident of making AESA (with help from ELTA or without it). Lot of posters have already posted links to work being carried out by DRDO on RAM/stealth etc.

The only fear I have is that things should not go the kaveri/MMR way. DRDO was confident of developing these but had to seek external help in the end. So unless there is some official information from DRDO on how their work on stealth/RAM has been used in LCA/FGFA (and how much it helped reduce the RCS etc) I would not believe these reports fully.
Cmon , you are expecting too much , i feel you are binded by too much patriotism - I appreciate that ( i serve indian army so i feel that too) but reality is different.

MIG has not worked on stealth fighter
Wrong first 5th gen jet by russia - MIG MAPO 1.42 MFI, i think you forgot that
Pak-fa is 3rd , su47 was second.

DRDO seems confident of making AESA
Well there it goes again " difference btw making and saying"
AESA requires sophisticated GA-AS / Nitride chip manufacturing , we are not doing that infact only US manufactures it in commercial scale , Do you remember russians also built their aesa from US manufactured microchips.

What would we gain by involving MIG in MCA or taking part in LMFS
You know what this recent devlopment of TEJAS is possible bcoz of- not drdo alone but EADS+L.M
2 days back news of lca-navy in DEFEXPO (http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/02/lca-navy-targets-first-flight-this-year.html)

Significantly, while EADS has already begun consulting with the LCA air force variant programme, the LCA Navy is still to begin consulting with Lockheed-Martin (which won a bid to consult for the LCA Navy) since protocol clearances from the US government still haven't come through (which, personally stinks of something deeper).

"We are fully capable of completing the exercise on our own. However, we have decided to hire the services of a consultant to optimise our requirements. For example, we need to reconfigure our landing gear for a greater sink rate, etc," Cmde Balaji says.


I think that should clear out things , we do need assistence of others to build MCA.
As per MIG LFMI i think it will depend upon indian airforce whethet it needs one.
 
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gb009

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Cmon , you are expecting too much , i feel you are binded by too much patriotism - I appreciate that ( i serve indian army so i feel that too) but reality is different.
Sir, I am not supporting them blindly out of patriotism, I too have my doubts. That's what my 2nd paragraph is all about. So in a way its between blindly trusting DRDO and choosing a foreign partner. 2nd option looks better agreed. But may be a couple of years down the line based on whether DRDO has succeeded in developing a powerful Kaveri & AESA, option 1 could be viable.

Wrong first 5th gen jet by russia - MIG MAPO 1.42 MFI, i think you forgot that
Pak-fa is 3rd , su47 was second.
MIG 1.44/1.42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_Project_1.44 it was a 4.5 gen fighter (rather a demonstrator) with supercruise etc, don't think it was stealth.
Su 47 is a super agile expirimental fighter with forward swept wing. No stealth.



Well there it goes again " difference btw making and saying"
AESA requires sophisticated GA-AS / Nitride chip manufacturing , we are not doing that infact only US manufactures it in commercial scale , Do you remember russians also built their aesa from US manufactured microchips.
I have to revisit that post. But how can MIG get us AESA? Besides even if we can't develop it we can get it from Elta.

You know what this recent devlopment of TEJAS is possible bcoz of- not drdo alone but EADS+L.M
2 days back news of lca-navy in DEFEXPO (http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/02/lca-navy-targets-first-flight-this-year.html)

Significantly, while EADS has already begun consulting with the LCA air force variant programme, the LCA Navy is still to begin consulting with Lockheed-Martin (which won a bid to consult for the LCA Navy) since protocol clearances from the US government still haven't come through (which, personally stinks of something deeper).

"We are fully capable of completing the exercise on our own. However, we have decided to hire the services of a consultant to optimise our requirements. For example, we need to reconfigure our landing gear for a greater sink rate, etc," Cmde Balaji says.
I am not against consulting with MIG. Making them a partner would result in more spending and I am not sure MIG has enough to offer to justify that cost.

I think that should clear out things , we do need assistence of others to build MCA.
Agreed but is MIG the best option? Ofcourse since SU will be busy with PAK FA and no western firm will cooperate with us on 5th gen fighter technology, not sure what other options we have.
 

sunnyv

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MIG 1.44/1.42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_Project_1.44 it was a 4.5 gen fighter (rather a demonstrator) with supercruise etc, don't think it was stealth.
Su 47 is a super agile expirimental fighter with forward swept wing. No stealth.
Mig1.44 & su47 were fighters with low observable technology and stealth (http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/mig142.htm) (http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/s37.htm)
Followabove link & site - very reliable site you will get every information of aircraft ever built , and practically dont trust wiki everytime many information is edited by viewers.
For 5th gen fighter qualifications req are - Stealth+Low obsevable+Internal weapon bay+modern sensors+supercruise+TVC+New weapons
Mig and su47 had all that except very modern sensors of today's 5gen jets (do remember AESA was not devloped in 90's) and they were just prototype like what PAK-FA is today(no radar, no final engines,no modern weapons),so if anything happens to PAKFA it will not mean russians never built a 5gen jet.
So it' not correct to say MIG has'nt built or has no experience of 5gen jet.


But how can MIG get us AESA?
Firstly it will be either PHAZTRON NIIR or NIIP - Only these two manufacture radar in russia (Mig and sukhoi :well i doubt them building radar), so if Mig is consulted it will bring these two in as well -Business after all
Well Europeans have started manufacturing these microchips on small scale , i read russia and china are planning to do so on commercial scale (let me get that link- it is from a chinese research paper)

I am not against consulting with MIG. Making them a partner would result in more spending and I am not sure MIG has enough to offer to justify that cost.
Buddy we dont know price as yet
Russia has always been supportive of India and hasnt denied topmost technology or quoted price too high.Plz dont forget gorshkov was given free, cost was for refit but it was mistake from russian's who underestimated it.
When everyone was imposting bans Russia helped us, it was first country that supported India's UN security council seat ,our nuclear reactors and fuel are russian,Arihant is helped by russia,our space tech is russian cooperation,planned 2013 space mission will use russian vehicle. Just few months back Russia's war doctrine stated "Any attack on russia's allies will be taken as attack on russia and will mean direct war with russia


Agreed but is MIG the best option? Ofcourse since SU will be busy with PAK FA and no western firm will cooperate with us on 5th gen fighter technology, not sure what other options we have.
I personally feel so infact thats only option . Mig have -Experience in 5th gen tech+technology+Expertise+dedication to india.Recently i heard Russia wants to have india in their GLONASS concept (another commitment by russia to india)
Europe doesnt have experience in 5gen jets as much as russians or US / Israel will be under american pressure ( similar to arrow missile defence blockage by US/ Forget US
 

gb009

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Mig1.44 & su47 were fighters with low observable technology and stealth (http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/mig142.htm) (http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/s37.htm)
Followabove link & site - very reliable site you will get every information of aircraft ever built , and practically dont trust wiki everytime many information is edited by viewers.
For 5th gen fighter qualifications req are - Stealth+Low obsevable+Internal weapon bay+modern sensors+supercruise+TVC+New weapons
Mig and su47 had all that except very modern sensors of today's 5gen jets (do remember AESA was not devloped in 90's) and they were just prototype like what PAK-FA is today(no radar, no final engines,no modern weapons),so if anything happens to PAKFA it will not mean russians never built a 5gen jet.
So it' not correct to say MIG has'nt built or has no experience of 5gen jet.
Since there are sites that mention them as 5gen and others that don't it basically boils down to how authentic the material on the site is.

Firstly it will be either PHAZTRON NIIR or NIIP - Only these two manufacture radar in russia (Mig and sukhoi :well i doubt them building radar), so if Mig is consulted it will bring these two in as well -Business after all
Well Europeans have started manufacturing these microchips on small scale , i read russia and china are planning to do so on commercial scale (let me get that link- it is from a chinese research paper)
Why not then try to have just partner with these radar manufacturers?
I think they already make all they need (atleast they claim so) : http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2009/08/tikhomirovs-niip-aesa-radar-for-pak-fa.html

Buddy we dont know price as yet
Russia has always been supportive of India and hasnt denied topmost technology or quoted price too high.Plz dont forget gorshkov was given free, cost was for refit but it was mistake from russian's who underestimated it.
When everyone was imposting bans Russia helped us, it was first country that supported India's UN security council seat ,our nuclear reactors and fuel are russian,Arihant is helped by russia,our space tech is russian cooperation,planned 2013 space mission will use russian vehicle. Just few months back Russia's war doctrine stated "Any attack on russia's allies will be taken as attack on russia and will mean direct war with russia
I am not against Russia in any way. Besides not many would agree to Gorshkov being all that free.

I personally feel so infact thats only option . Mig have -Experience in 5th gen tech+technology+Expertise+dedication to india.Recently i heard Russia wants to have india in their GLONASS concept (another commitment by russia to india)
Europe doesnt have experience in 5gen jets as much as russians or US / Israel will be under american pressure ( similar to arrow missile defence blockage by US/ Forget US
Mig might be the only available option, quiet true.
 

ramamohan

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Yup, we heard this long back but is there any confirmation from ADA? if it is, what is the current status of the program?
 

jassi

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Mig's fifth gen fighter and India. What happened next???

There were reports few year back that India would be partnering in Mig's 5th generation fighter program as it would give India better chances of understanding design and making of 5th gen fighter as Mig was just in starting phase of designing and making the fighter. Moreover it was said that it would be a lighter fighter as compare to T50. Also Pranab Mukharjee once admitted that India has discussed this subject with Russia. Here is a news talking about this:
http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/5122.aspx

So anyone knows what happened next? Any new news about this project
 

SHASH2K2

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Good points made int he article but Problem is that Pak FA has a flying prototype while MIG will have to start from scratch . Question is Can we afford to wait for so long?
 

maomao

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Good points made int he article but Problem is that Pak FA has a flying prototype while MIG will have to start from scratch . Question is Can we afford to wait for so long?
Now days, Sukhoi is considered to be better at designing, integrating and timely producing the required product in comparison to MIG.
 
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jassi

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I think Mig was mainly for AtoA. And about starting from scratch, it was the main reason India was considering to invest as it would have given us know how about building an 5th gen Fighter jet. About AMCA, i really dont know how much success we will get it. Its ok to think positive but here we are talking about AMCA which would be 5th gen. Even we havent finalized the design yet, so i think it is atleast 15 years away. These 15 years can also turn into 20 easily as we dont have that much experience in designing and building fighter aircraft. We are still struggling with LCA. I think it would have been a good chance to learn form scratch to end. Everything of pakfa was already done before we joined the project and see after so much negotiation we have got hardly 25% ( i dont know how much it is true) share in making of FGFA. Also that will be only in Avionics and some other components like composites. About money, If our Babus can eat billions in CWG, i dont think it would be a big deal for our growing economy to afford additional $ 5-10 bn load for next 5-10 years.
 

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