LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[DumbPilot]

Back To The Future: Air Chief’s SWOT Analysis Of The IAF

“Irrespective of international treaties, 'friendship between countries' will always come second to a nation's own security. There’s a lesser appetite for the global rules-based order.” Air Chie

bharatshakti.in

Great article

 

[vishnugupt]

yeah...not believing in one type of aircraft in a air force. but 3 type should be perfect:-
1:- single engine light aircraft (like gripin e or tejas 2)..plz dont call them medium weight for god shake. lesser than 20000 kg weight.
2:- double engine medium weight (like rafale or eurofighter typhoon etc). lesser than 30000 kg weight.
3:- either heavy weight fighter (like su 30, f15 etc) or fifth or sixth generation fighter. lesser than 40000 kg weight.
thats enough. nd give variety also for different missions.

This three tier aircraft principle artificially invented by UN Generals only to promote import. That’s why UN Generals imported more than 6 types of aircrafts from all over world.

SU -27 have many variants for absolutely different roles, Su-30SM (Multirole), Su-34 ( Bomber), Su-35 ( Air superiority) with > 85% commonality.

Even if you choose expense wise then choose single engine or double engine. Or something like 4th generation or 5th generation.

Yes, I also do believe, investing enormously on single platform ( F 35 ) or relying on single source ( Specially foreign one ) also mistake.

imagine if F-35 compromised then it will be disastrous for all operators. Western countries reliance on F-35 alone could potentially prove fatal one day.

 

[MirageBlue]

What was the type of radar present in the Tejas that tested the Astra missile? Was it MMR or ELTA2052 AESA? Also, is there any idea against which target it was tested? If the target interception happened at the max range, then we could have got some idea regarding the radar's range.

LSP-7 was the Tejas prototype that fired the Astra Mk1 BVRAAM. The same LSP-7 prototype also was involved in the testing of AASM Hammer and the Gsh-23 gun butt firing trials on the ground. But there is no information as yet on whether LSP-7 was upgraded with the Elta 2052 AESA radar or not.

But, given that the primary requirement for integrating AASM Hammer and Astra BVRAAM arose with the Tejas Mk1A which is to be handed over in Feb 2024, I would assume that LSP-7 has already been modified to carry the Elta 2052 AESA.

So my assumption would be that the testing of the Astra BVRAAM was with the Elta 2052 AESA and not the Elta 2032 MMR.

No info on which target it was tested against (could just be an electronic target) or the range of the interception.

 

[MirageBlue]

Outdated specifications. MTOW of Tejas is 14200 KG now.

I don't think that is the case.

As per ADA's AR 2021-22, the Reject Takeoff Tests (RTO) was conducted on LSP-5 in heavy configuration (Max All Up Weight = 13500 kgs) with 90% naturally worn out brakes.

They specifically called out the AUW = 13,500 kgs.

 

[johnj]

I think he doesn’t mean French military records.

he meant to say intelligent airforce can use fewer type of Aircraft’s in different configurations. increasing commonality among aircrafts helps speed up further upgradation.

Just see the crazy variants of SU-27.

SU -27

This three tier aircraft principle artificially invented by UN Generals only to promote import. That’s why UN Generals imported more than 6 types of aircrafts from all over world.

SU -27 have many variants for absolutely different roles, Su-30SM (Multirole), Su-34 ( Bomber), Su-35 ( Air superiority) with > 85% commonality.

Even if you choose expense wise then choose single engine or double engine. Or something like 4th generation or 5th generation.

Yes, I also do believe, investing enormously on single platform ( F 35 ) or relying on single source ( Specially foreign one ) also mistake.

imagine if F-35 compromised then it will be disastrous for all operators. Western countries reliance on F-35 alone could potentially prove fatal one day.

IAF invented three tier aircraft principle based on cost. You really think IAF can afford 42sq of rafale/teddy orca ??
Su27 series uses three or more type of radar/modified, 2/3 type of TF, different EWS, 3 modified designs etc and their commonality is < 70~75 %. LCA mk1Au and LCA mk2 having better commonality than Su 27 series.
Su27 - Air superiority
Su30 - multirole
Su33 - carrier version
Su34 - CAS
Su35 - Air superiority
F35 is designed fulfil roles similar to Su30, Su33 and Su34
UASF need F15, F22 and NGAD for air superiority role

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

IAF invented three tier aircraft principle based on cost. You really think IAF can afford 42sq of rafale/teddy orca ??
Su27 series uses three or more type of radar/modified, 2/3 type of TF, different EWS, 3 modified designs etc and their commonality is < 70~75 %. LCA mk1Au and LCA mk2 having better commonality than Su 27 series.
Su27 - Air superiority
Su30 - multirole
Su33 - carrier version
Su34 - CAS
Su35 - Air superiority
F35 is designed fulfil roles similar to Su30, Su33 and Su34
UASF need F15, F22 and NGAD for air superiority role

Not to forget, F35 and FA XX for Naval role also separate

 

[vishnugupt]

IAF invented three tier aircraft principle based on cost. You really think IAF can afford 42sq of rafale/teddy orca ??
Su27 series uses three or more type of radar/modified, 2/3 type of TF, different EWS, 3 modified designs etc and their commonality is < 70~75 %. LCA mk1Au and LCA mk2 having better commonality than Su 27 series.
Su27 - Air superiority
Su30 - multirole
Su33 - carrier version
Su34 - CAS
Su35 - Air superiority
F35 is designed fulfil roles similar to Su30, Su33 and Su34
UASF need F15, F22 and NGAD for air superiority role

Su 27 family does not use 3 types of Radar or EWS. Only difference is modes like Su -34 use Air to ground more prominently than Air to air.

Commonality is more than 85% because they use same subsystems. They could be Looking 70% common.

LCA mk1a will have < 20% commonality with MWF. engine, wings, fuselage, IRST, IFRP, flight computer, radome, possibly landing gears all are different. But both are local so it not affect much.

Original question was commonality, specifically when all plans are imported from different countries so Zero commonality which is a headache.

 

[johnj]

Su 27 family does not use 3 types of Radar or EWS. Only difference is modes like Su -34 use Air to ground more prominently than Air to air.

Commonality is more than 85% because they use same subsystems. They could be Looking 70% common.

LCA mk1a will have < 20% commonality with MWF. engine, wings, fuselage, IRST, IFRP, flight computer, radome, possibly landing gears all are different. But both are local so it not affect much.

Original question was commonality, specifically when all plans are imported from different countries so Zero commonality which is a headache.

FCR - N001, N001VE
Zhuk-MS
N011
Irbis-E

etc
Airframe, Su30mki is based on su37, and Su35 having less than 1/3rd of su27 RCS
Su27, Su37, Su35 are extremely different aircrafts, using different subsystems, FCR, flight computer, FCS, IRST etc . mki and mkk are another two beasts which are different from those above
But in the case of LCA, its use a lots of common systems except desi engine, even in the case of engine, F414 is a modified version of F404, and both lacks TVC. Most of the foreign components will get replaced by local common desi s/ms
Su30mki used by IAF is different from PLAAF su30 series.
Similarity b/w su27 family is like F16/F21/F2 family.
There is a lots of possibility that LCAmk1au share more commonality with mwf than mk1 ioc

 

[InfinityWarrior Thanos]

Sad, Pacific rim really deserves a sequel

Only if Guillermo del toro makes it. He is good with monster movies.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Su 27 family does not use 3 types of Radar or EWS. Only difference is modes like Su -34 use Air to ground more prominently than Air to air.

Commonality is more than 85% because they use same subsystems. They could be Looking 70% common.

LCA mk1a will have < 20% commonality with MWF. engine, wings, fuselage, IRST, IFRP, flight computer, radome, possibly landing gears all are different. But both are local so it not affect much.

Original question was commonality, specifically when all plans are imported from different countries so Zero commonality which is a headache.

Because there is a reason. LCA MK1 was our first plane and the systems were not as much evolved else we could have commonality in Radar, EW, Refueling probe etc had we had a developed industries. More over, MWF is a medium weight fighter and its EW are to be incorporated internally and not on Pod.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Su35 having less than 1/3rd of su27 RCS

How? Just based on aerodynamics, this is still a very big bird? There is a lot of fine print around stealth numbers, even a small missile that is magnitudes smaller and stealthy shape is visible on radar to an airdefence. I think parameters at what range and altitude and so on are important and all open sources no matter how detailed it is at math level and so on is crap. All signatures are usually trapped and models updated in the RADAR computers....only killer feature for sure is the speed (more for missiles) and tactics (more for aircraft)

 

[johnj]

How? Just based on aerodynamics, this is still a very big bird? There is a lot of fine print around stealth numbers, even a small missile that is magnitudes smaller and stealthy shape is visible on radar to an airdefence. I think parameters at what range and altitude and so on are important and all open sources no matter how detailed it is at math level and so on is crap. All signatures are usually trapped and models updated in the RADAR computers....only killer feature for sure is the speed (more for missiles) and tactics (more for aircraft)

I don't know how.
Doesn't matter becz su27 having 10~15 m2 RCS, little less than Su30mki
For those signatures & tactics one need to fight a lots of war, a major reason why IAF demanding MRFA. USA having the largest signatures and tactics, followed by EU, Israel, Russia etc

 

[omaebakabaka]

I don't know how.
Doesn't matter becz su27 having 10~15 m2 RCS, little less than Su30mki
For those signatures & tactics one need to fight a lots of war, a major reason why IAF demanding MRFA. USA having the largest signatures and tactics, followed by EU, Israel, Russia etc

Physics can help in minimizing via better aerodynamics but EW and Materials and their coatings take it to next level but these are defeatable in theory as there is no true black or white for instance that absorbs or radiates to that level....rest is the computer's job to isolate signatures from noise and so on....so its a cat and mouse game between capable countries....this is the reason why US does not expose its f22 and f35 very much and when they do they fly falsifying true parameters....you can call it a few tricks pony and possibly not a good strategy to make the stealth the prime investment in a platform....against not so capable enemy it can do wonders though.....optical advancements is another pin prick to stealth. SU's don't make sense outside big countries as they are too big but for Russia it totally makes sense as they can traverse across country.

 

[johnj]

Physics can help in minimizing via better aerodynamics but EW and Materials and their coatings take it to next level but these are defeatable in theory as there is no true black or white for instance that absorbs or radiates to that level....rest is the computer's job to isolate signatures from noise and so on....so its a cat and mouse game between capable countries....this is the reason why US does not expose its f22 and f35 very much and when they do they fly falsifying true parameters....you can call it a few tricks pony and possibly not a good strategy to make the stealth the prime investment in a platform....against not so capable enemy it can do wonders though.....optical advancements is another pin prick to stealth. SU's don't make sense outside big countries as they are too big but for Russia it totally makes sense as they can traverse across country.

Comparing Su30 mki/F15F with F22/F35 wrt their EW and Materials and coatings
etc is not a good idea. In simple f22 can spot mki 350km away but mki can only spot F22 less than 20km, means F22 can kill mki without showing any signature
Su is not the only heavy fighter jet in the world
FYI, Israel a small country also using heavy class fighter jet

 

[DumbPilot]

Physics can help in minimizing via better aerodynamics but EW and Materials and their coatings take it to next level but these are defeatable in theory as there is no true black or white for instance that absorbs or radiates to that level....rest is the computer's job to isolate signatures from noise and so on....so its a cat and mouse game between capable countries....this is the reason why US does not expose its f22 and f35 very much and when they do they fly falsifying true parameters....you can call it a few tricks pony and possibly not a good strategy to make the stealth the prime investment in a platform....against not so capable enemy it can do wonders though.....optical advancements is another pin prick to stealth. SU's don't make sense outside big countries as they are too big but for Russia it totally makes sense as they can traverse across country.

LPI intercept is insane.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Comparing Su30 mki/F15F with F22/F35 wrt their EW and Materials and coatings
etc is not a good idea. In simple f22 can spot mki 350km away but mki can only spot F22 less than 20km, means F22 can kill mki without showing any signature
Su is not the only heavy fighter jet in the world
FYI, Israel a small country also using heavy class fighter jet

That is what they claim, is there proof that it is true? They claimed a lot of nonsense about leopards, challengers and thei storm shadow and what not....we are seeing how they perform and its no better for sure and possibly worse as they are not really star performers under real scenarios against capable opponent. There is enough data to call lot of stuff about west fantasy level....as for Israel, it goes against lesser capable opponents with full spectrum of intelligence and capabilities and agreement with Russia not to interfere....for them f-16 is workhorse more than 15 but they are surrounded by opponents and 15 does give speed and higher carrying limits....

Data is in front of us, west deviated from good engineering practices 3 decades ago and all their stuff is needlessly complex and exagerrated and not to mention mindlessly expensive. They do make good engines and few other things but it does not take a genius to see that they are incapable of doing anything fundamentally new anymore. Most of their projects are white elephants....french are bit better overall

F22 and 35 are products designed for countries and wars like gulf war not Ukraine, while they can be used their magic does not necessarily work.

 

[johnj]

That is what they claim, is there proof that it is true? They claimed a lot of nonsense about leopards, challengers and thei storm shadow and what not....we are seeing how they perform and its no better for sure and possibly worse as they are not really star performers under real scenarios against capable opponent. There is enough data to call lot of stuff about west fantasy level....as for Israel, it goes against lesser capable opponents with full spectrum of intelligence and capabilities and agreement with Russia not to interfere....for them f-16 is workhorse more than 15 but they are surrounded by opponents and 15 does give speed and higher carrying limits....

Data is in front of us, west deviated from good engineering practices 3 decades ago and all their stuff is needlessly complex and exagerrated and not to mention mindlessly expensive. They do make good engines and few other things but it does not take a genius to see that they are incapable of doing anything fundamentally new anymore. Most of their projects are white elephants....french are bit better overall

F22 and 35 are products designed for countries and wars like gulf war not Ukraine, while they can be used their magic does not necessarily work.

After 1990, after the collapse of USSR, EU possess zero major threat
US is the major country, busy fighting around the world, NATO follows US, and French also there and some other places
All the weapons they developed by west works and meets their requirements
War is a business, which is needed to supports multi trillion $ eco systems and the future, and Ukraine is an advertisement, a big long advertisement and a highly, very highly successful one, and helping west to dominate the industry
F22 is designed for alien warfare. not gulf
F35 is designed to dominate and control major allied AF
Except Iran, there is major threat to West in Gulf, and US don't need F22 or F35 to destroy Iran.
Israel - its hard to say which country is the biggest enemy of Israel, Saudi or pak or Iran, & they are surround by enemies. They work/betray/allay with any country to meet their needs, these hostilities provide great opportunities to major weapon exporters, and these exporters works directly or indirectly with Israel
French weapons are no better than other western ones and worse than US ones.
In other words, US makes better ones based on their 800bill$ needs, followed by EU and EU weapons are basically overall same, and each country offering niche technology

 

[vishnugupt]

Comparing Su30 mki/F15F with F22/F35 wrt their EW and Materials and coatings
etc is not a good idea. In simple f22 can spot mki 350km away but mki can only spot F22 less than 20km, means F22 can kill mki without showing any signature
Su is not the only heavy fighter jet in the world
FYI, Israel a small country also using heavy class fighter jet

You seem, yet another fan of wunderwaffe.

Whatever you claiming are thausand miles from reality. We have heard lots in the past about Chalanger 2 and Leopard 2 wunderwaffe and guess what ?? Reality is just apposite.

Recently a Israeli F-35 was damaged by Syrian S-200 missile.

 

[DumbPilot]

Recently a Israeli F-35 was damaged by Syrian S-200 missile.

there is zero proof about this being true and there is no source which provides evidence for it being true.

 

[vishnugupt]

there is zero proof about this being true and there is no source which provides evidence for it being true.

Hahahaha..... Seems you got hurt just by hearing the claim.

But it's true. A Israeli F-35 was sent back to USA for Repair.

F-35 is a capable aircraft but it's far from wunderwaffe. There is others way to detect stealth aircraft.