LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[NutCracker]

How did this fking chink get the figure of 230 hrs is he part of hal
Fking idiots they really underestimate us
It will come to bite them back someday

It's total airborne testing. Ground testing might be in thousands of hours.
And Airborne testing hours might've been in also increased by now. If the source is true about 230 hrs.

From wiki.
The Uttam radar has completed 230 hours of AIRBORNE testing onboard two Tejas fighter jets (LSP2 and LSP3) and on an executive jet; presumed to be DRDO's Dornier 228 "Nabhratna" used as a flying test bed by LRDE.[7]


SOURCE WEBSITE NOT OPENING FOR ME.

https://guardingindia.com/exclusive/exclusive-why-desi-uttam-aesa-radar-is-a-game-changer/

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Yes 8 LCA sqdrn means aprox 160.
123 already ordered, this kind of corroborates the possibility of order of more 40+ LCA.

IAF should stop harping about 114 MRFA. 36 already acquired. Combine their order of 74 with Navy's 26 and then India can ask assembly line for 100+ Rafales.

Rafale build in india will be very expensive compared to getting from France. And build for even just 100 with 26 Rafale M would be unsuitable. All the components would have to be imported.

As for Su30mki deal IAF and GoI knew from the very onset that they are going to buy 200+ aircraft’s, it’s just the people in govt never ordered them in one go, made the aircraft quite expensive than in Russia but we made components here and making investments made sense. Not for Rafale.
36 more for IAF + 26 M should be the last order, directly imported from France and kill MRFA and commit 200 mk2 from the set go to bring down costs. This and the next decade will be painful for Indian armed forces and bureaucrats to ensure war doesn’t break out with China till we get 42sq min.

 

[kamaal]

Rafale build in india will be very expensive compared to getting from France. And build for even just 100 with 26 Rafale M would be unsuitable. All the components would have to be imported.

As for Su30mki deal IAF and GoI knew from the very onset that they are going to buy 200+ aircraft’s, it’s just the people in govt never ordered them in one go, made the aircraft quite expensive than in Russia but we made components here and making investments made sense. Not for Rafale.
36 more for IAF + 26 M should be the last order, directly imported from France and kill MRFA and commit 200 mk2 from the set go to bring down costs. This and the next decade will be painful for Indian armed forces and bureaucrats to ensure war doesn’t break out with China till we get 42sq min.

I always had doubt about IAFs approach towards maintaining Rafale in the inventory, like why only 18 jets per squadron? Why not go for 20 per squadron, it'll be less costly to maintain.
I think IAF should order 64 Rafales and maintain 5 squadrons that'll give it edge over both adversaries, also the Ms shall be ordered in good quantities like 26+26=52.
That takes total to 116 jets, which is enough to be assembled in India, it may be costly at first but this will make India the 2nd home for the jet, MRO facility and future upgrades can be done in our country.
If we think about future in the coming decades then setting up assemblies in India is an viable option.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

I always had doubt about IAFs approach towards maintaining Rafale in the inventory, like why only 18 jets per squadron? Why not go for 20 per squadron, it'll be less costly to maintain.
I think IAF should order 64 Rafales and maintain 5 squadrons that'll give it edge over both adversaries, also the Ms shall be ordered in good quantities like 26+26=52.
That takes total to 116 jets, which is enough to be assembled in India, it may be costly at first but this will make India the 2nd home for the jet, MRO facility and future upgrades can be done in our country.
If we think about future in the coming decades then setting up assemblies in India is an viable option.

Jets are getting costlier by the day and even Soviets can’t manufacture 1000s of jets they did for Mig 21 today. Navy reduced their number for 26 cos they are convinced to go for TEDBF now. That TEDBF programme is now floundering is a different argument now as still Qualitative requirements is ongoing. Then there is CCS clearance which I don’t expect before 2025.

There is no economics involved in setting an like for 64 ir plus 26. Cos the design is not ours. We have to perform R&D to replace components in Rafale and it increases costs cos it has to be certified again. Again the components we want to replace have to better than the OEM so it’s worth it.
So to reduce costs we have to import components. So screw driver tech which we are already pretty good at. My point is india will be self sufficient in most avionics tech in the next 10-20 years except for the engines. Whatever JV we make we need to concentrate on engine side and get our knowledge in flesh

 

[kamaal]

Jets are getting costlier by the day and even Soviets can’t manufacture 1000s of jets they did for Mig 21 today. Navy reduced their number for 26 cos they are convinced to go for TEDBF now. That TEDBF programme is now floundering is a different argument now as still Qualitative requirements is ongoing. Then there is CCS clearance which I don’t expect before 2025.

There is no economics involved in setting an like for 64 ir plus 26. Cos the design is not ours. We have to perform R&D to replace components in Rafale and it increases costs cos it has to be certified again. Again the components we want to replace have to better than the OEM so it’s worth it.
So to reduce costs we have to import components. So screw driver tech which we are already pretty good at. My point is india will be self sufficient in most avionics tech in the next 10-20 years except for the engines. Whatever JV we make we need to concentrate on engine side and get our knowledge in flesh

We have the ability to offer scale for production, the experience we gained from mki is being used in LCA production, we haven't got experience in producing any western jet. This may well prove vital in producing future indigenous jets. The initial cost will be higher but we'll maintain around 35 squadrons of diverse jets, the friendly countries can bring their jets for cheaper maintenance. The deal involves both strategic and economic benefit in the long run.

AFA TEDBF is concerned, I think it's still a decade to wait before it's launch and by that time mig 29ks won't survive and we need more than 26 jets to maintain operational strength in the sea. Hence 26+26 deal with 60% availability rate will help IN in compensating the loss of 29ks.

 

[Flying Dagger]

How did this fking chink get the figure of 230 hrs is he part of hal
Fking idiots they really underestimate us
It will come to bite them back someday

From 21st Mk1a we will get Uttam AESA. At most from 40th or so.

We can use them for extensive training and post 2030, mk2 will take the main lead in western sector. That's why I am ok with the current 123 order. Another batch of trainer variant is also fine but not more.

Better we get some Rafales now. We don't need them once mk2 line starts.

 

[NutCracker]

Jets are getting costlier by the day and even Soviets can’t manufacture 1000s of jets they did for Mig 21 today. Navy reduced their number for 26 cos they are convinced to go for TEDBF now. That TEDBF programme is now floundering is a different argument now as still Qualitative requirements is ongoing. Then there is CCS clearance which I don’t expect before 2025.

There is no economics involved in setting an like for 64 ir plus 26. Cos the design is not ours. We have to perform R&D to replace components in Rafale and it increases costs cos it has to be certified again. Again the components we want to replace have to better than the OEM so it’s worth it.
So to reduce costs we have to import components. So screw driver tech which we are already pretty good at. My point is india will be self sufficient in most avionics tech in the next 10-20 years except for the engines. Whatever JV we make we need to concentrate on engine side and get our knowledge in flesh

We can ask Dassault and UAE to shift some orders to Indian assembly line.

Also as kamaal said, we can be regional MRO hub for Dassault considering lots of SEA and M.E. countries buying Rafale.

 

[johnj]

Jets are getting costlier by the day and even Soviets can’t manufacture 1000s of jets they did for Mig 21 today.

Jets are not the only thing which gets costlier, every thing is extremely expensive now, you can't buy a brand new car today for 15k inr, but the truth is jets cost is raising in a slow rate compared to rest, making them less expensive compared to others.
Soviets ? there is no soviets today and chines are new soviets, and they are manufacture 1000s of jets.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Jets are not the only thing which gets costlier, every thing is extremely expensive now, you can't buy a brand new car today for 15k inr, but the truth is jets cost is raising in a slow rate compared to rest, making them less expensive compared to others.
Soviets ? there is no soviets today and chines are new soviets, and they are manufacture 1000s of jets.

I meant if Soviets were today. Jets are less expensive only if you are making by the hundreds or thousands. Example in case is F35.

Rafale flyaway costs is 85m approx from media reports. F35 would be reaching that price in a few years.

Second, even if we absorb the fly away costs, the maintenance costs are getting expensive. A reason why IAF did hold on to Mig21 cos it did not have complex electronics or weapons. Simple yet efficient. The new age jets are neither simple or maintenance friendly. Yes even F35 has maintenance complaints. Naturally the life cycle costs of an jet is exploding. Case in point for that example is Su30 and Mig29k.

Chinese does manufacture 100s every year. Their budget is huge enough. I can only hope India follows China example in ordering equipment to bring down the costs

 

[johnj]

I meant if Soviets were today. Jets are less expensive only if you are making by the hundreds or thousands. Example in case is F35.

Rafale flyaway costs is 85m approx from media reports. F35 would be reaching that price in a few years.

Second, even if we absorb the fly away costs, the maintenance costs are getting expensive. A reason why IAF did hold on to Mig21 cos it did not have complex electronics or weapons. Simple yet efficient. The new age jets are neither simple or maintenance friendly. Yes even F35 has maintenance complaints. Naturally the life cycle costs of an jet is exploding. Case in point for that example is Su30 and Mig29k.

Chinese does manufacture 100s every year. Their budget is huge enough. I can only hope India follows China example in ordering equipment to bring down the costs

If Soviets exists now, they will manufacture 1000s of jets today, USSR == 100x Russia, don't forget Russia equipped with large no.of mi31[heavy], su27[heavy] class jets[left overs].
Its true maintenance cost of jets are increased, yet it is low compared to non aircraft items - for ex. consider phones, 350 inr capital cost with 250inr monthly cost[old] vs 10k inr capital cost with 250inr monthly[now]. IAF holding mig21 is like a person using both feature phone & iphone . In simple su30mki is very expensive to maintain compared rest with low availability rate & sortie rate & need two pilots to fly and IAF need a low cost platform for low cost operations with high availability rate, like lca. Normally countries chose low[70%]-hi[30%] or medium[100%] in their AF, but IAF stuck with 270 mkis, forcing them to keep m2k, mig29, mig21 with expensive upgrades. Best solution for this issue is more local content in mki & 200 lca mk1 & 250 mk2. Mig21 is equipped with fcr, hmcs, r77, spj, ccm etc.
Mass manufacturing depends of industrial & manufacturing sector & economy - we are multiple decade behind chinese and cost of human resources is exploding. Right now we can only sustain 30 jets per year compared to 500 per year of chinese and they can easily increase further, but we can't, similar to US, French etc.
F35- its designed for low cost operations with high availability rate unlike other stealth jets & its operational cost is a higher due to over engg. and come down in future.

 

[SKC]

If Soviets exists now, they will manufacture 1000s of jets today, USSR == 100x Russia, don't forget Russia equipped with large no.of mi31[heavy], su27[heavy] class jets[left overs].
Its true maintenance cost of jets are increased, yet it is low compared to non aircraft items - for ex. consider phones, 350 inr capital cost with 250inr monthly cost[old] vs 10k inr capital cost with 250inr monthly[now]. IAF holding mig21 is like a person using both feature phone & iphone . In simple su30mki is very expensive to maintain compared rest with low availability rate & sortie rate & need two pilots to fly and IAF need a low cost platform for low cost operations with high availability rate, like lca. Normally countries chose low[70%]-hi[30%] or medium[100%] in their AF, but IAF stuck with 270 mkis, forcing them to keep m2k, mig29, mig21 with expensive upgrades. Best solution for this issue is more local content in mki & 200 lca mk1 & 250 mk2. Mig21 is equipped with fcr, hmcs, r77, spj, ccm etc.
Mass manufacturing depends of industrial & manufacturing sector & economy - we are multiple decade behind chinese and cost of human resources is exploding. Right now we can only sustain 30 jets per year compared to 500 per year of chinese and they can easily increase further, but we can't, similar to US, French etc.
F35- its designed for low cost operations with high availability rate unlike other stealth jets & its operational cost is a higher due to over engg. and come down in future.

Dude, Soviets were not 100 times Russian.

After WWII, soviets managed to build most no of Mig-17, Mig-21 and Mig-23.
Mig-17 and Mig-21 both more than 10000 units and Mig-23 less than 5000. Rest all are much less in no.

Even on its highest point Soviet Union GDP managed to reach only ~58% of then US GDP!
rest of the time it was much less than US.

 

[johnj]

Dude, Soviets were not 100 times Russian.

After WWII, soviets managed to build most no of Mig-17, Mig-21 and Mig-23.
Mig-17 and Mig-21 both more than 10000 units and Mig-23 less than 5000. Rest all are much less in no.

Even on its highest point Soviet Union GDP managed to reach only ~58% of then US GDP!
rest of the time it was much less than US.

I think you totally misunderstood the concept, FYI- here no one is talking about GDP or USA.
Here we are talking about IAF & Tejas & increase in expensive.
After reading your comment. I changed USSR == 100x Russia to USSR == 1000x Russia.
If still you can't get it, simply read what you wrote, ''Mig-17 and Mig-21 both more than 10000 units and Mig-23 less than 5000'' thats too much, on the other hand Russia struggling to maintain them & building new ones
& China depends on Russia & HAL totally depends on foreign countries for jet engine.
Easy way to understand USSR- Current indian defence manufacturing capability represent 1~5% to USSR and Russia only similar to India due to USSR.
FYI- USSR AF- 500 bombers, 3500 jet fighters/bombers, 70 tankers, 500 transport aircrafts.
They spend so much on STEM & military, still follow on countries facing economic difficulties, something both USA & China never do.
Back to topic- IAF still struggling to buy 100 golden EU jets, only 83 mk1a instead of 150~200.

 

[Haldilal]

Ya'll Nibbiars

 

[patriots]

Ya'll Nibbiars

View attachment 198443

Rajasthan

 

[Haldilal]

Rajasthan

Ya'll Nibbiars Yeah The Classic Bengaluru to the Jodhpur journey for the various training exercises.

 

[patriots]

Paf is already getting the j10c and jf17 blk 3
We need mk1a ,
Hope we won't see j10c and mig 21 bison fight

 

[Haldilal]

Paf is already getting the j10c and jf17 blk 3
We need mk1a ,
Hope we won't see j10c and mig 21 bison fight

Ya'll Nibbiars

133 MK 1A > 50 Udan Khatola Chop Tails 3 Bheja fry of the Katora stan from Mleecahs made maal.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Paf is already getting the j10c and jf17 blk 3
We need mk1a ,
Hope we won't see j10c and mig 21 bison fight

You are too optimistic. It will be Mig-21 vs J-20 fight.

 

[IndianHawk]

You are too optimistic. It will be Mig-21 vs J-20 fight.

And yet again mig21 might score.

 

[Haldilal]

You are too optimistic. It will be Mig-21 vs J-20 fight.

Ya'll Nibbiars