LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[MirageBlue]

Does anyone think something might come out of this?

India has Russia's S-400 SAM system. The possession of that system by NATO member ,Turkey, was apparently sufficient grounds for the US not selling Turkey her F-35 plane.

The S-400 is a networked system and the data from it is transmitted back to Moscow. The Americans don't want the clandestine signature,characteristics and capabilities of a plane ,that is the backbone of NATO combat operations, being acquired by the Russians.

It is highly unlikely. The only way that the F-35 could be offered would be for the GoI to sign some iron-clad guarantee that the Russians should not have access to any F-35 related data that the IAF's S-400 batteries will collect. It is only natural that the S-400 in the IAF will collect electronic signatures for all of the IAF's fleet types so as to avoid friendly fire incidents. It will also mean that some very strict form of surveillance will be in place to ensure that Russian contractors/maintenance folks who will be accessing the S-400 during it's warranty period for repairs, etc. will not be able to access the radar signatures the system stores.

This S-400 was the primary issue that got Turkey thrown out of the F-35 program. And now the stupid Turks are busy burning their bridges with the Russians with UAV and weapons sales to Ukraine, as well as Erdogan's snubbing of Putin recently. Turkey has a habit of over-estimating their importance and strength. The kick in the face from the US with the F-35 program removal and denial of sales of helicopter engines has brought their ego down a few notches. If US denies engines for the TF-X prototypes, it'll be a non-starter of a program as well.

 

[skunk works]

It is highly unlikely. The only way that the F-35 could be offered would be for the GoI to sign some iron-clad guarantee that the Russians should not have access to any F-35 related data that the IAF's S-400 batteries will collect. It is only natural that the S-400 in the IAF will collect electronic signatures for all of the IAF's fleet types so as to avoid friendly fire incidents. It will also mean that some very strict form of surveillance will be in place to ensure that Russian contractors/maintenance folks who will be accessing the S-400 during it's warranty period for repairs, etc. will not be able to access the radar signatures the system stores.

This S-400 was the primary issue that got Turkey thrown out of the F-35 program. And now the stupid Turks are busy burning their bridges with the Russians with UAV and weapons sales to Ukraine, as well as Erdogan's snubbing of Putin recently. Turkey has a habit of over-estimating their importance and strength. The kick in the face from the US with the F-35 program removal and denial of sales of helicopter engines has brought their ego down a few notches. If US denies engines for the TF-X prototypes, it'll be a non-starter of a program as well.

I would just not fall into the trap. Doesn't the F35 need regular go-codes from the manufacturer to keep working, even if in another air force? They can literally remote-kill it.
Frankly, I don't think it's a good choice financially as well. Can India really afford F35? How many squadrons? Then what will be role of the Rafale? Will we be maintaining 3 kinds of Frontline 'silver bullet fighter'- MKI, Rafale and F35?
The constant worry of not exposing it to Russian hardware, or not falling into enemy hands will make it impossible to properly train with it, and to even use it in combat.
A kind of paradox sets in (vidambana)- I have this super fighter but it's SO GOOD that I can't send it forth into battle. So let's send the 20 year old conventional kit instead.

 

[ShukantC]

More than there help in developing Manned 5th Gen aircraft, I would prefer we get there help in developing drones of heavier categories MALE/HALE types because frankly speaking in this area we haven't done that well at present. Only NewSpace Research provides a ray of hope in these categories.

 

[MonaLazy]

It is highly unlikely.

In "peace time" ops don't they already sling Luneburg lenses to throw off any potential snooping?

In war when it flies in VLO config and have the radar signature of a golf ball then what good is knowing that signature? When you'll (hostile AD battery vs VLO aircraft) be toast long before the F-35 comes close enough to be detectable?

I mean to say if the S400 can detect an F-35 reliably from say 10-20 kms away then what good is such a signature even if known to Russia? In war the F-35 would have released it's payload from a safe distance and turned around.


This video illustrates how difficult it is to see even a small UAV (detected at 328 feet high, 4.9 miles away), they actually could not see it at tree top level. I'm guessing a full blown stealth fighter would be whole order of magnitude more difficult to track.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

More than there help in developing Manned 5th Gen aircraft, I would prefer we get there help in developing drones of heavier categories MALE/HALE types because frankly speaking in this area we haven't done that well at present. Only NewSpace Research provides a ray of hope in these categories.

We have actually mastered MALE/HALE drones technologies.
The current problem we are facing is with respect to engine.
We have an endogenous EO suite, SDR and SatCom system
SAR is under development and will begin tetsing soon.

 

[proud_indian]

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

View attachment 165446

Incorrect headlines, its clearly mentioned in the report that the target date is 2030, and not the date when the last of the Tejas Mk1A are to be delivered.
If HAL starts delivery of 16 jets/year from Feb 2024, it will be able to wrap up the deliveries for 73 Tejas Mk1A by 2028.

 

[mokoman]

In "peace time" ops don't they already sling Luneburg lenses to throw off any potential snooping?

In war when it flies in VLO config and have the radar signature of a golf ball then what good is knowing that signature? When you'll (hostile AD battery vs VLO aircraft) be toast long before the F-35 comes close enough to be detectable?

I mean to say if the S400 can detect an F-35 reliably from say 10-20 kms away then what good is such a signature even if known to Russia? In war the F-35 would have released it's payload from a safe distance and turned around.


This video illustrates how difficult it is to see even a small UAV (detected at 328 feet high, 4.9 miles away), they actually could not see it at tree top level. I'm guessing a full blown stealth fighter would be whole order of magnitude more difficult to track.

my guess is to prevent s400 from getting a upclose reading of the f35 - say when it takes off from an airbase and s400 is deployed near it to protect it .

 

[MonaLazy]

View attachment 165446

Things still chugging along as planned in Feb 2021. But 3 lines doing 8/year should mean a 3.5-year run to completion of order- unless one line is dedicated to foreign orders?

IAF to get 1st delivery of LCA Tejas by March 2024, says HAL Chairman

Meanwhile, Arup Chatterjee, one of the directors of HAL, informed about a "high altitude pseudo satellite" being developed by the HAL, along with a start-up company. "We are developing a high altitude pseudo satellite with start-up company, it is futuristic. No country in the world has developed...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

"As per the contract, we are to start delivery of LCA (Light Combat Aircraft) by 36 months from today. The first delivery will be by March 2024. In the first year, there will be delivery of two aircraft which will be ramped up to 16. Total supply time, post first delivery is 6 years," Madhavan said at a press conference in Bengaluru.

assuming 2 in the first year and then 16/yr from the very next year:
2+16*5=82 they are still one aircraft short in the proposed timeline

 

[MonaLazy]

3 lines

2+16*5=82

This article gets the maths right for two lines.

‘Light Combat Aircraft MK-1A to take flight in June’

A larger aircraft LCA MK-2 to roll out by year end or early 2023, says HAL MD

www.thehindu.com

Despite 3 lines we are planning for only 2?

 

[DocK]

India should offer RMAF Tejas Mk2 directly. If they order then we should give them squadron 7 no matter what UNAF says.

That will be enough to sell Tejas to RMAF and teach UNAF a point.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

India should offer RMAF Tejas Mk2 directly. If they order then we should give them squadron 7 no matter what UNAF says.

That will be enough to sell Tejas to RMAF and teach UNAF a point.

Offering Tejas Mk. 2 would be analogous to offering of TAI Hürjet.
Currently both airplanes are on paper.

 

[daya]

Incorrect headlines, its clearly mentioned in the report that the target date is 2030, and not the date when the last of the Tejas Mk1A are to be delivered.
If HAL starts delivery of 16 jets/year from Feb 2024, it will be able to wrap up the deliveries for 73 Tejas Mk1A by 2028.

The rate of production is too slow.. However, it directly proportionate to orders.

 

[silverghost]

I would just not fall into the trap. Doesn't the F35 need regular go-codes from the manufacturer to keep working, even if in another air force? They can literally remote-kill it.
Frankly, I don't think it's a good choice financially as well. Can India really afford F35? How many squadrons? Then what will be role of the Rafale? Will we be maintaining 3 kinds of Frontline 'silver bullet fighter'- MKI, Rafale and F35?
The constant worry of not exposing it to Russian hardware, or not falling into enemy hands will make it impossible to properly train with it, and to even use it in combat.
A kind of paradox sets in (vidambana)- I have this super fighter but it's SO GOOD that I can't send it forth into battle. So let's send the 20 year old conventional kit instead.

I don't think we are buying any Russian fighter jets in the future. SU 30 MKI once done will be the last of the Russian jets in IAF. Mig 29 probably will retire before SU 30 MKI. The US probably realizes that India is not going to consider F21 or F15 EX & doesn't want the opportunity of $20 billion sale to go to France hence the offer. They will demand an ironclad guarantee w.r.t not mixing Russian & US weapon systems but given the control, they can exercise on the weapon system I don't see that as a big deal. Also, there is a big difference between Turkey & India.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

I don't think we are buying any Russian fighter jets in the future. SU 30 MKI once done will be the last of the Russian jets in IAF. Mig 29 probably will retire before SU 30 MKI. The US probably realizes that India is not going to consider F21 or F15 EX & doesn't want the opportunity of $20 billion sale to go to France hence the offer. They will demand an ironclad guarantee w.r.t not mixing Russian & US weapon systems but given the control, they can exercise on the weapon system I don't see that as a big deal. Also, there is a big difference between Turkey & India.

Few years from now IAF will suddenly show interest in SU 57 again to replace SU 30 in heavy frontline role

 

[silverghost]

Few years from now IAF will suddenly show interest in SU 57 again to replace SU 30 in heavy frontline role

I doubt it. We fell into the SU 30 MKI trap & faced a lot of maintenance, reliability & availability issues. Moreover, the Russian engines have 1/2 the life of the engines used in US & French fighter jets. Also, checkout even the Russian Air Force prefers SU 35 S over SU 57. We would be idiots to buy SU 57.

 

[johnj]

I don't think we are buying any Russian fighter jets in the future. SU 30 MKI once done will be the last of the Russian jets in IAF. Mig 29 probably will retire before SU 30 MKI. The US probably realizes that India is not going to consider F21 or F15 EX & doesn't want the opportunity of $20 billion sale to go to France hence the offer. They will demand an ironclad guarantee w.r.t not mixing Russian & US weapon systems but given the control, they can exercise on the weapon system I don't see that as a big deal. Also, there is a big difference between Turkey & India.

When US offered F 35 to India ?

 

[johnj]

Few years from now IAF will suddenly show interest in SU 57 again to replace SU 30 in heavy frontline role

iff Pak buys 5th gen and its depend on engine.
IAF consider sixth gen first[EU].
Another 36 or 54 rafale, then consider 6th gen.
Russians jets gets replaced by Indian jets excluding a small portion of mki.
Hi-Lo tech, Hi from uk,eu & lo from India.
<Just a guess>

 

[kamaal]

India should offer RMAF Tejas Mk2 directly. If they order then we should give them squadron 7 no matter what UNAF says.

That will be enough to sell Tejas to RMAF and teach UNAF a point.

RMAF don't have money to buy 18 MK1A, they can't afford MK2. MK2 may cost around $ 60+ million per piece. MK2 will have to go through lots of testing between 2023-2028 before IAF giving final approval for their 6 squadron.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Hi-Lo tech, Hi from uk,eu & lo from India.

What high technology can UK or EU give other than engine that India doesn't already have