LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[HariPrasad-1]

LCA Tejas and Meteor? With current Israeli Radar LCA Tejas Will not be having the Capability to fire Meteor Missile because you need a European radar for it. Also MBDA has refused to Integrate Meteor Missile in Tejas already so no meteor on Tejas mk1a Aircrafts. I am Not sure about Integration of AIM-120 Missiles though. We could Export Tejas with Astra MK-1 Missiles on it.

MBDA has said that they will not allow meteor to be integrated with ISREALI radar because of secracy issue. When we will put Uttam in Tejas, they may allow integration of meteor. Anyway, MBDA has offered to develop super meteor with India.

 

[Super Flanker]

MBDA has said that they will not allow meteor to be integrated with ISREALI radar because of secracy issue. When we will put Uttam in Tejas, they may allow integration of meteor. Anyway, MBDA has offered to develop super meteor with India.

I am not sure about that though. Maybe this type of thing with regards to Integration of meteor with UTTAM AESA Radar will be helpful in Export of Tejas. I am not against Integration of Meteor with UTTAM AESA Radar, maybe we should do it because Astra Mk3 will take time to come to in the meanwhile we can integrate Meteor with UTTAM AESA Radar. And Lastly I don't know if MBDA will allow the Integration of Meteor with UTTAM AESA Radar or not.

 

[vishnugupt]

One of my friend is working with a national news agency. He told me that:
Just after CDS Rawat's death was confirmed, his news agency planned a debate on the same lines you are raising. As they asked MoD for official response, they got unofficial request not to pursue that suspicion angle.

So, I am convinced of import lobby role in murder of CDS Rawat.

Please refrain yourself putting such allegations to anyone. Neither there is direct evidence nor a circumstantial evidence to prove it. Journalist are having habit to bring Masala over actual news

CDS wasn't a helpless guy. He was holder of a Minister level portfolio and highest person in military office. Import lobby can't even dare to touch him....

Inter service rivalry is also a fake narrative... Losses suffered by all.

There could be diffence in opinion or opposition among service for their interest but Rivalry something I don't believe.

 

[LakshmanPST7]

Till few years ago, MiG-21 was BACKBONE of Imported Air Force. Therefore, what's your logic against Tejas ?

Please enlighten Desi FanBoys like me with some example of prominent Air Forces (P-5 / G-20 nations) having 3 types of fighters based on :
1) Light 2) Medium & 3) Heavy definition of IAF.

As far as I know, combat aircraft compositions of prominent Air Forces are as following:
United States Air Force
Heavy: Earlier F-15 variants and now F-22A Raptor
Light: Earlier F-16 variants and now F-35A Lightning
Russian Air Force
Heavy: Su-27 variants
Light: MiG-29 variants
Chinese Air Force
Heavy: Su-27 variants, Shenyang J-11 & J-16 (Chinese variants of Su-27), Chengdu J-20
Light: Chengdu J-7, J-8 & J-10
British Air Force
Heavy: Eurofighter Typhoon
Light: F-35B Lightning
French Air Force
Medium-1: Rafale variants
Medium-2: Mirage variants

Now, bestow your valuable knowledge on ignorant Desi FanBoys.

First of all, the classification of Light, Medium, Heavy etc. is not standard and varies from Air Force to Air Force...
Classification varies from Air Force to Air Force based on number of engines, relative differences of payload, relative differences in range etc....

Force structure is planned based on threat perception and operational requirements...
MIG21 was the backbone of IAF when PAF and PLAAF operated 100s of F7s & other light fighters 2-3 decades back...

Today PLAAF has 1000+ 4th & above Generation Jets, Huge number of SAM systems, lot of infrastructure in Tibet and a huge Rocket Force...
PLAAF will replace remaining F7 Air Brigades with Medium/Heavy 4+ or 5th Gen jets by the end of this decade and they're aiming for 100 Air Brigades of all 4th & 5th Gen Jets by 2040...

You want IAF to fight that with 20 squadrons of Tejas...? Thank Gods that IAF planners are not listening to you...
----
IAF's force structure plans have undergone a major revision around 15-20 years back after they got wind of PLAGF's and PLAAF's rise... Having huge no. of Tejas Mk1s is simply not enough...

Currently, IAF is targetting a force structure of 1/3rd Heavy, 1/6th Light and 1/2 mix of Single Engine & Twin Engine Medium jets, over the next two decades...
That 1/6th Light jets is due to push from late Manohar Parrikar and because many in IAF understood the importance of having a domestic MIC... If given a chance, IAF would gladly exchange those 1/6th Light jets with Medium Weight jets...

Fighting with Light Fighters with 4 Tonnes payload is a thing of past... We need fighters with heavier payload and longer legs...

 

[MonaLazy]

I don't know if MBDA will allow the Integration of Meteor with UTTAM AESA Radar or not.

Will.

in response to an IAF query whether the Meteor could be integrated onto the Uttam AESA radar the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) was developing, MBDA gave conditional acceptance on July 13, 2018. Writing to the deputy chief, MBDA wrote: “integration would be perfectly feasible (provided) this DRDO ‘UTTAM’ radar would need to be shown to be completely indigenous.”

Please read the entire saga:

Israeli radar means Tejas aircraft won't have world-class Meteor missile

The IAF had made the Meteor an essential pre-condition for ordering the fighter in large numbers

www.business-standard.com

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

What is MBDA's issue with Israel? Israel has access to almost everything thats NATO.

 

[Super Flanker]

Will.



Please read the entire saga:

Israeli radar means Tejas aircraft won't have world-class Meteor missile

The IAF had made the Meteor an essential pre-condition for ordering the fighter in large numbers

www.business-standard.com

That means MBDA will allow the Integration of UTTAM provided UTTAM AESA Radar would be completely Indigenous.

What is MBDA's issue with Israel? Israel has access to almost everything thats NATO.

MBDA has cited technology security concerns that integrating the Meteor with Israeli radar would endanger secret source codes and technologies.

 

[Vaibhavseafarer]

Any confirmed news on MWF GaN radar?

 

[Vikas Lohia]

Hello Friends,

I see a lot of friends here actively engaged in heated discussions. I can understand. We are all genuinely frustrated with the slow-moving pace. Promising projects keep getting delayed. No cohesion and synergies amongst top-level decision-makers. We have many horror stories to tell. But what can we do?

Sometimes I feel everyone from a Mid-level manager in HAL to senior bureaucrats behind CCS are compromised and hell-bent to delay India from getting a strategic edge.

Don't call me paranoid, but isn't it possible, Lobbies bribing HAL managers just to delay Tejas as much as possible so it frustrates IAF which then proceeds with off-the-shelf emergency procurements?

I'm not even going to insinuate my hunch as to why CCS sat on LCH proposal for 5 years?

I'm too afraid to ask why our Army cannot decide on a universal assault rifle for its million-strong infantry.

I'll just ignore the fact that India can build ungodly huge SSBNs from scratch, apparently without any tech sharing (wink, wink), but can't design diesel-electric subs?

I promise I'll never mention that our IAF looks like a depleted zoo of exotic extinct birds.

I am frustrated. I am scared. But I'll not utter a word.

 

[FalconZero]

Hello Friends,

I see a lot of friends here actively engaged in heated discussions. I can understand. We are all genuinely frustrated with the slow-moving pace. Promising projects keep getting delayed. No cohesion and synergies amongst top-level decision-makers. We have many horror stories to tell. But what can we do?

Sometimes I feel everyone from a Mid-level manager in HAL to senior bureaucrats behind CCS are compromised and hell-bent to delay India from getting a strategic edge.

Don't call me paranoid, but isn't it possible, Lobbies bribing HAL managers just to delay Tejas as much as possible so it frustrates IAF which then proceeds with off-the-shelf emergency procurements?

I'm not even going to insinuate my hunch as to why CCS sat on LCH proposal for 5 years?

I'm too afraid to ask why our Army cannot decide on a universal assault rifle for its million-strong infantry.

I'll just ignore the fact that India can build ungodly huge SSBNs from scratch, apparently without any tech sharing (wink, wink), but can't design diesel-electric subs?

I promise I'll never mention that our IAF looks like a depleted zoo of exotic extinct birds.

I am frustrated. I am scared. But I'll not utter a word.

Noted but this doesn't belong here, somewhere but not here.

IAF has ordered 123 tejas mk1/mk1a that's a good start. Coming to LCH one theory was it being toothless, without any proper atgm integration, now Helina is tested and trials are completed we may see some trials on LCH and subsequently some orders for now.

MWF will be rolling out within a span of a year, or so once it is that then it's better to talk about its induction and MemeRCA is meme, anyone else who thinks otherwise is deluded, we don't have money nor does GOI is going to shill that much money for imports even if they could.

Army just chose Ak203 along with Sigs for frontline troops. Yes it's not idle case but it doesn't belong here.

There are lots of positives, including government's push for indigenous system and it is going to get better with time. Be it Tejas, MWF, AMCA or UAV or UCAV programs, if we can get better design and help then it's alright.

>but i'll not utter a word
Too late, you are already on the watch list, get ready for gulag.

 

[Vikas Lohia]

Too late, you are already on the watch list, get ready for gulag.

If I have to face the firing squad, I chose Made in Amethi AK-203. That way, my execution will be deferred by 10 yrs at least.

 

[Whitecollar]

Fighting with Light Fighters with 4 Tonnes payload is a thing of past... We need fighters with heavier payload and longer legs...

If you remember anything about the IAF's fighting prowess against a tough adversary in 1965 and 71, you'll see that IAF did something almost extraordinary with what they had. The star jet of 65 and 71 wars were not the Multirole Hawker Hunters but the nimble and light Folland Gnats.

Pic courtsey of respective owner

While the PAF had one of the best multirole fighters in the world(F86 Sabres with state of the art hest seeking missiles) and F104 Starfighters, IAF had relatively lesser effective Hunters and Gnats. Gnats weren't even looked as a fighter and were used as a trainer by RAF back in the days. It was IAF that revealed Gnat's potential to the world and what we now call as Sabre Slayers.

Now why am I telling this? Because this has always been IAF's go to doctrine for defensive duties. Hence the Tejas MK1 was born. Hence the whole program was funded for so long despite being expensive. IAF knows this all too well that the best point defence and interception aircrafts are the ones smaller in size but agile and nimble. Tejas literally ticks all the parameters needed by the IAF for point defence duties and much more now that it can fire BVRs and accurately perform A2G roles. I'm sure they will order more after 1-2 decades looking at the operational cost, maintenance cost, etc of LCA compared to other fighters and threat perception.

 

[Kharavela]

Please refrain yourself putting such allegations to anyone. Neither there is direct evidence nor a circumstantial evidence to prove it. Journalist are having habit to bring Masala over actual news

The friend I am speaking of is not a journalist. He works at the top management of that News Channel. Secondly, I am not levelling allegations against anybody. Just posted what I heard that MoD asked the channel not to pursue that angle in their debate show.

CDS wasn't a helpless guy. He was holder of a Minister level portfolio and highest person in military office. Import lobby can't even dare to touch him....

This country has seen murder of her Prime Minister Lal Bahadur Shastri, and
deaths of:
* Father of Indian Nuclear Program Homi Jehangir Bhaba in plane crash
* Top Cabinet Ministers Madhav Rao Scindia in plane crash and Rajesh Pilot, Gopinath Munde in car accidents
* Chief Minister YS Rajshekhar Reddy in helicopter crash.

I leave it to you to deduce what you want to.

 

[Kharavela]

First of all, the classification of Light, Medium, Heavy etc. is not standard and varies from Air Force to Air Force...
Classification varies from Air Force to Air Force based on number of engines, relative differences of payload, relative differences in range etc....

Force structure is planned based on threat perception and operational requirements...
MIG21 was the backbone of IAF when PAF and PLAAF operated 100s of F7s & other light fighters 2-3 decades back...

Today PLAAF has 1000+ 4th & above Generation Jets, Huge number of SAM systems, lot of infrastructure in Tibet and a huge Rocket Force...
PLAAF will replace remaining F7 Air Brigades with Medium/Heavy 4+ or 5th Gen jets by the end of this decade and they're aiming for 100 Air Brigades of all 4th & 5th Gen Jets by 2040...

You want IAF to fight that with 20 squadrons of Tejas...? Thank Gods that IAF planners are not listening to you...
----
IAF's force structure plans have undergone a major revision around 15-20 years back after they got wind of PLAGF's and PLAAF's rise... Having huge no. of Tejas Mk1s is simply not enough...

Currently, IAF is targetting a force structure of 1/3rd Heavy, 1/6th Light and 1/2 mix of Single Engine & Twin Engine Medium jets, over the next two decades...
That 1/6th Light jets is due to push from late Manohar Parrikar and because many in IAF understood the importance of having a domestic MIC... If given a chance, IAF would gladly exchange those 1/6th Light jets with Medium Weight jets...

Fighting with Light Fighters with 4 Tonnes payload is a thing of past... We need fighters with heavier payload and longer legs...

I perceived you as well-read man, but you proved me WRONG

You have admitted that PLAAF has 1000+ 4th & above Generation Jets, Huge number of SAM systems, lot of infrastructure in Tibet and a huge Rocket Force. In that case, how can a sane military planner think of using more heavy & medium fighter jets which can be easier target for SAM systems ?

If your words IAF is targeting a force structure of 1/3rd Heavy, 1/6th Light and 1/2 mix of Single Engine & Twin Engine Medium jets, over the next two decades are true, then even GOD himself can't save us in a conflict with PLA. I can't but pity on such idiots working as planners for IAF.

Results of armed conflict between Azerbaijan & Armenia changed views of defence planners around the world. All prominent forces are moving towards unmanned systems & swarm capability. In this context, HAL has envisioned CATS (Combat Air Teaming System), which is a good sign.

I agree with you that Fighting with Light Fighters with 4 Tonnes payload is a thing of past, but We DON'T need fighters with heavier payload and longer legs...

Rather, we need to convert all MiG-21, MiG-25, MiG-27 jets at our disposal as Unmanned Systems, need to induct & deploy HAL CATS at the earliest.

 

[vishnugupt]

The friend I am speaking of is not a journalist. He works at the top management of that News Channel. Secondly, I am not levelling allegations against anybody. Just posted what I heard that MoD asked the channel not to pursue that angle in their debate show.

How come MoD came to know that your friend channel is planning to make a such show??

May be it was a advisory but it doesn’t mean there was conspiracy. Government often issues advisory in the matter of national security/ interest. Otherwise we all know at what extent our beloved media could go?

This country has seen murder of her Prime Minister Lal Bahadur Shastri, and
deaths of:
* Father of Indian Nuclear Program Homi Jehangir Bhaba in plane crash
* Top Cabinet Ministers Madhav Rao Scindia in plane crash and Rajesh Pilot, Gopinath Munde in car accidents
* Chief Minister YS Rajshekhar Reddy in helicopter crash.

Don’t know about Dr Bhaba but none of above was a murder

Due to watching too much Bollywood movies and Dramatic TV serials during childhood People nowadays don’t believe that affluent person can also die a natural death or could met with accident.

I never believe in conspiracy theories. Truth can be seen through the wall

 

[Bleh]

IAF had relatively lesser effective Hunters and Gnats.

Don't say that.. Hawker Hunters were the bloody Su-27 of its era. Its only because of no heatseekers on them that the Paki SuperSabres got an edge. Just GOI being GOI.

 

[LakshmanPST7]

I perceived you as well-read man, but you proved me WRONG

I didn't prove anything... And I'm not that well-read... You assume a lot of things...

You have admitted that PLAAF has 1000+ 4th & above Generation Jets, Huge number of SAM systems, lot of infrastructure in Tibet and a huge Rocket Force. In that case, how can a sane military planner think of using more heavy & medium fighter jets which can be easier target for SAM systems ?

You think IAF's doctrine is only defending Air Space...? Then who will attack targets in enemy land...? Who does the breaking-in of enemy Air Defence assets...? Who does dominating of enemy air space so that Army can move in...?
Don't say UAVs and Drones... Drones work only in safe air space... In contested air-space, drones are roast...
Every Air Force is planning to build manned aircraft and every 6th Gen program currently in plans is a twin-engine medium/heavy jet... Yes they have MUM teaming capability, but those are for speacial missions... Manned Aircrafts are here to stay...

Even to defend one own air space, you need both defending fighters AND multiple levels of SAM systems... No Air Force buys a bunch of SAMs snd stay put...

If your words IAF is targeting a force structure of 1/3rd Heavy, 1/6th Light and 1/2 mix of Single Engine & Twin Engine Medium jets, over the next two decades are true, then even GOD himself can't save us in a conflict with PLA. I can't but pity on such idiots working as planners for IAF.

No Comments...
While my post was more of a general observation based on various numbers which IAF gave to media at various times regarding their procurement plans, I definitely wouldn't call Air Force planners as idiots for planning it... Particularly when I type this sitting in my chair and I don't have skin-in-the-game...

Results of armed conflict between Azerbaijan & Armenia changed views of defence planners around the world. All prominent forces are moving towards unmanned systems & swarm capability. In this context, HAL has envisioned CATS (Combat Air Teaming System), which is a good sign.

All that happened in the conflict is ghat Azerbaijan used a bunch of tactical drones to target enemy ground assets, where enemy didn't have a major air force or layered Air Defence assets...
This is not sone new technology nagically implemented by Azerbaijan... World has known these techniques since many years...
But you're right... Armenian-Azerbaijan conflict was definitely studied by military experts all over the world... Because this is the first time drones are used in a proper battle...

And just becoz. they studied it doesn't mean that every Air Force is giving up manned fighter jets and working on drones... A very wrong conclusion from your side...
Drones and UAVs will compliment manned jets, but won't replace them...

HAL has been planning for CATS much before Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict... And CATS system is way different from the tactical drones used by Azerbaijan... CATS is more in line with MUM teaming systems being developed aroubd the world as part of 6th Gen Fighters...

I agree with you that Fighting with Light Fighters with 4 Tonnes payload is a thing of past, but We DON'T need fighters with heavier payload and longer legs...

Rather, we need to convert all MiG-21, MiG-25, MiG-27 jets at our disposal as Unmanned Systems, need to induct & deploy HAL CATS at the earliest.

We cannot simply convert retired MIG jets into Unmanned systems... It doesn't work that way...
The best we can do with them is use them as Kamikaze drones... Beyond that, they're pretty useless after retirement...
It is better to build new UAVs than convert these vintage jets into UAVs...

 

[LakshmanPST7]

While the PAF had one of the best multirole fighters in the world(F86 Sabres with state of the art hest seeking missiles) and F104 Starfighters, IAF had relatively lesser effective Hunters and Gnats. Gnats weren't even looked as a fighter and were used as a trainer by RAF back in the days. It was IAF that revealed Gnat's potential to the world and what we now call as Sabre Slayers.

Now why am I telling this? Because this has always been IAF's go to doctrine for defensive duties. Hence the Tejas MK1 was born. Hence the whole program was funded for so long despite being expensive. IAF knows this all too well that the best point defence and interception aircrafts are the ones smaller in size but agile and nimble. Tejas literally ticks all the parameters needed by the IAF for point defence duties and much more now that it can fire BVRs and accurately perform A2G roles. I'm sure they will order more after 1-2 decades looking at the operational cost, maintenance cost, etc of LCA compared to other fighters and threat perception.

What you said about GNats may be true in the era of Single Role fighters and WVR battles... That was 50 years ago and world has moved ahead in terms of technology and the way Air Battles are fought...

The main requirement for Air Interception and Point Defence is that the jet should be in air in a very short time... A lighter fighter is prefered only from operational cost point of view...
Good radar, BVR & WVR missiles, maneuverability etc. are also important, but then every modern fighter have them...
Ofcourse, lighter fighter may also have RCS advantage but that is secondary...
----
World over, there are generally only two classifications by weight in any Air Force; Light and Heavy... Most countries generally consider Single Engine fighters as Light and Twin Engine fighters as Heavy (except maybe Russia)...
-
The classification of Light, Medium and Heavy is purely IAF's classification...
The light fighters in many countries will be classified as Medium-Weight by IAF... This is because back in 2000, IAF had lighter MiG21s and Heavier Su30s... IAF needed a Mirage 2000 class fighter and hence Medium-Weight class was created for MMRCA Tender...

The point I'm trying to make is, every major Air Force has moved away or is moving away from actual Light fighters of MIG21 class... The new 'Light' fighters they're moving towards are Single-Engine Medium Weight Multirole Fighters... These new Light fighters can perform good and cost-effective Air Interception, and also Ground Attack given their longer range and heavier payload...

While Tejas is technologically at par or superior to most 4th Gen jets, it has smaller range and lesser payload to fully utilize its Multi-Role capabilities...
It can definitely perform excellent Air-interception duties...
Given the overall requirements of IAF, I don't think IAF will order anything beyond 6 squadrons of Tejas Mk1/1A...

 

[Narasimh]

 

[HawkisRight]

Air force thread still locked?