LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Rajaraja Chola]

SP25 is going on with MK1a mods and testing. April deadline will be pushed to 1st quarter or maybe second quarter.

True. Only 7 would be delivered. 1 will become test bed for Mk1A. Just like 1 Rafale is still with Dassault for F4 variant.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Werent 9 FOC being assembled at Bangalore? (SP-27...to...SP-36 in various states)

That is ministers statement of 24. Which means only 8 are being assembled. I believe 2 of them are also nearly ready as 2 Trainers are already on Jigs. And I believe we have 8 production jigs.

The jigs made for LSP ones need to be modified to be used in production.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

@abingdonboy i remember on brf it was told that IAF is taking soft-delivery & are handling the aircrafts still at HAL facility. I believe Astra ke n baad they'll move them.

Yes. That is why when there were complaint from "public" on why only 1 FOC is at sulur, this was the most plausible explanation. FOC were soft delivered and might be sitting in HAL tarmac. Though it's also possible they might have departed to Sulur and back. Not sure if HAL has hangers for 15 FOC aircrafts.

IAF has history of not taking delivery of helis as their base infra building takes time. It's also possible for Tejas. They are either building requirements for 40ac in Sulur or an forward base in Punjab.

 

[Chinmoy]

If you have radar neutral coatings on, they wont add to rcs but will protect ram. On the downside, it will make maintenance worse.

Basic of physics. Energy could neither be created, nor be destroyed.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Basic of physics. Energy could neither be created, nor be destroyed.

Wot?

 

[space marine]

Any chance for Elta 8222 SPJ to be installed right below tailwing section on Tejas Max?
View attachment 129163
Something like this??

Too much to ask there is always a limit on goodies due to budget even if engine can carry all of them.
I dont see wings load, conf tanks happening it will add too much time for bird to be put in service

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Too much to ask there is always a limit on goodies due to budget even if engine can carry all of them.
I dont see wings load, conf tanks happening it will add too much time for bird to be put in service

That could happen maybe around 2030 if they come out with a upgraded version of tejas mk1, much like f16 upgrades.

 

[Chinmoy]

Wot?

First of all we have to understand how RAM coating works. RAM or Radar Absorbing Material works on principle of absorbing radar waves as we all know. But as I mentioned earlier, basic of physics is, energy could neither be created, nor be destroyed. Means energy is constant, it would only change its form.

Radar waves are energy waves. Now just think, when you would absorb that energy wave, where would it go? It is indestructible means it would change its form. Those absorbed radar waves get transformed into heat. If you have read or seen detailed video of B2 spirit, you might have seen that how much intricate designing has gone into it just for the purpose of heat dissipation. Engineers call it a breathing machine.

Now this is a typical radar transparent coat composition. It is designed to let RADAR wave pass thru it both ways. But the biggest issue with this type of coating is, they would trap the temperature and hinder the dissipation. In turn the IR signature of the target would increase manifold.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

First of all we have to understand how RAM coating works. RAM or Radar Absorbing Material works on principle of absorbing radar waves as we all know. But as I mentioned earlier, basic of physics is, energy could neither be created, nor be destroyed. Means energy is constant, it would only change its form.

Radar waves are energy waves. Now just think, when you would absorb that energy wave, where would it go? It is indestructible means it would change its form. Those absorbed radar waves get transformed into heat. If you have read or seen detailed video of B2 spirit, you might have seen that how much intricate designing has gone into it just for the purpose of heat dissipation. Engineers call it a breathing machine.

View attachment 129958

Now this is a typical radar transparent coat composition. It is designed to let RADAR wave pass thru it both ways. But the biggest issue with this type of coating is, they would trap the temperature and hinder the dissipation. In turn the IR signature of the target would increase manifold.

Ahh. I didnt get what you were pointing at, thanks. BTW from what I know, radar isnt powerful enough to do much heating compared to going through air at supersonic speed. Radar waves are pretty low power compared to the heat from drag.

IR signature is the issue with most stealth fighters, best you can do is keep afterburner off , have cooling vents well shaped, and hope for the best. Engines can be locked on, but flares can counter it.

 

[Chinmoy]

Ahh. I didnt get what you were pointing at, thanks. BTW from what I know, radar isnt powerful enough to do much heating compared to going through air at supersonic speed. Radar waves are pretty low power compared to the heat from drag.

IR signature is the issue with most stealth fighters, best you can do is keep afterburner off , have cooling vents well shaped, and hope for the best. Engines can be locked on, but flares can counter it.

Radar in themself would not generate heat. But when you absorb that energy, things change a lot. Radar is a particle wave. When we say absorbing radar wave, here the energy is getting absorbed. But how?

Just take the example of a ball bouncing off a wall. Replace the wall with a cloth. The ball would not bounce back. Why? Because unlike in case of the wall, the energy here would get transferred to the cloth and the particles in cloth would start vibrating. The same happens in case of a RAM coating. The wave energy gets transferred to the coat which in turn excites its particles which makes them vibrate. This in turn create heat in the body.

Now don't take this example literally. I have just quoted it to give a rough idea of how RAM works.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

I was saying the power of the rradar incident would be very low, hence would not give much heat when absorbed. I looked up a commercial radar, for 1200 m range it had 40kw peak power. Meaning that assuming military radars to be twice as powerful to be on the safe side, and taking airplanes to be a disk of 10 m radius (roughly the area that will be getting hit by radar at any time) it gives a grand total of.....







0.004 watts

That is less than most small LED lights power consumption, spread over the airplane. Even taking military radars to be 2000x as powerful as civillian radars, that is still 4 watts, less than power of a cfl bulb. Compare that to the airplane engine running at about 1000k, the airframe going through air at supersonic speed, etc and you might see why its a minor issue compared to others.

 

[Roland55]

That is ministers statement of 24. Which means only 8 are being assembled. I believe 2 of them are also nearly ready as 2 Trainers are already on Jigs. And I believe we have 8 production jigs.

The jigs made for LSP ones need to be modified to be used in production.

i kinda went trough he while HT episode while making this post some time ago, and i think after seeing it again i have some doubts.

LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

I wonder if they'll order more with time passing. By the time last MK1a would be delivered, Serial production MK2 would be in the Jig. IAF could order more Tejas MAX/Tejas trainer with UAV stuff though

defenceforumindia.com

From what we see, there are 6 aircraft being assembled there, with 2 already painted and almost ready, one of them is LA-5024 (SP-2028), while the other appears to be...LA-5022? (one of the 3 that went to the dubai air show)

The other painted example is LA-5024 (SP-28)

From the other 4 that are also being assembled, only 2 have LA-50XX serials, and those are..

LA-5027

LA-5026 (or is it 25?)

That means we have
LA-5022 (doing...?)
LA-5024 (being finished)
LA-5026 (under assembly)
LA-5027 (under assembly)
Two more units (SP-32 and the other thats behind LA-5027)
SP-36 (seen in up close)
LSP-6 (in Jig)
Series trainer?

Of course thats not all, but makes me question where are the remaining examples and if they have already been given to the IAF. (where is LA-5023?)

I remember reading about SP-27 first flight (LA-5023) but could it be its already done?

 

[rohit b3]

So finally even JF17 is actually matching upto the Tejas.
- Addition of the 3 channel Fly by wire
-AESA radar
-More composites in the airframe
-Dual pylons
-Addition of an extra hardpoint
Will match Tejas mk1A

While some features such as
-Addition of MAWS
- Large screen with sensor fusion
-Missiles like PL15
will surpass it.

Areas where Tejas is still ahead though-
-Engine
-higher usage of composites
-maintainability?

I mean , i cant believe , they are still "Equipping" Tejas with Astra mk1 since like the last 6-8 months...and still not even a single flight trial..

 

[Covfefe]

From the other 4 that are also being assembled, only 2 have LA-50XX serials, and those are..

LA-5027

Sorry for the ot, but why is this gentleman under the wings wearing a sports shoe? Don't they have some PPE Industrial shoe issued as a matter of rule? These basic hygiene issues reflect poorly on the organization

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

i kinda went trough he while HT episode while making this post some time ago, and i think after seeing it again i have some doubts.

LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

I wonder if they'll order more with time passing. By the time last MK1a would be delivered, Serial production MK2 would be in the Jig. IAF could order more Tejas MAX/Tejas trainer with UAV stuff though

defenceforumindia.com

From what we see, there are 6 aircraft being assembled there, with 2 already painted and almost ready, one of them is LA-5024 (SP-2028), while the other appears to be...LA-5022? (one of the 3 that went to the dubai air show)

The other painted example is LA-5024 (SP-28)

From the other 4 that are also being assembled, only 2 have LA-50XX serials, and those are..

LA-5027

LA-5026 (or is it 25?)

That means we have
LA-5022 (doing...?)
LA-5024 (being finished)
LA-5026 (under assembly)
LA-5027 (under assembly)
Two more units (SP-32 and the other thats behind LA-5027)
SP-36 (seen in up close)
LSP-6 (in Jig)
Series trainer?

Of course thats not all, but makes me question where are the remaining examples and if they have already been given to the IAF. (where is LA-5023?)

I remember reading about SP-27 first flight (LA-5023) but could it be its already done?

That is what the minister of defence production told in Parliament.

24 Desi Tejas fighters inducted

Giving a boost to the IAF fighter aircraft fleet, 24 indigenously designed and manufactured Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) have been inducted into the service. The total cost of these jets is more than Rs 6,000 crore and the IAF plans to have a total of 123 Tejas in the coming years, the Rajya

www.dailypioneer.com

The YouTube videos might be old. Interviews might have done 3-4 months back, edited and presented it long after.

 

[Roland55]

That is what the minister of defence production told in Parliament.

24 Desi Tejas fighters inducted

Giving a boost to the IAF fighter aircraft fleet, 24 indigenously designed and manufactured Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) have been inducted into the service. The total cost of these jets is more than Rs 6,000 crore and the IAF plans to have a total of 123 Tejas in the coming years, the Rajya

www.dailypioneer.com

The YouTube videos might be old. Interviews might have done 3-4 months back, edited and presented it long after.

The vid was released like a month ago, but ill agree that it could be a bit out of date for today (still thanks to it we know all FOC airframes are being worked on)

 

[IndianHawk]

So finally even JF17 is actually matching upto the Tejas.
- Addition of the 3 channel Fly by wire
-AESA radar
-More composites in the airframe
-Dual pylons
-Addition of an extra hardpoint
Will match Tejas mk1A

While some features such as
-Addition of MAWS
- Large screen with sensor fusion
-Missiles like PL15
will surpass it.

Areas where Tejas is still ahead though-
-Engine
-higher usage of composites
-maintainability?

I mean , i cant believe , they are still "Equipping" Tejas with Astra mk1 since like the last 6-8 months...and still not even a single flight trial..

Tejas is still ahead with respect to fly by wire as it has quadruplex digital fly by wire.

Mk1a is also getting sensor fusion. It will get pylon based maws later . Similarly Derby ER test remains in vauge as of now . Janes reported It but IAF is mute.

Mk1a also has refueling probe over jf17 bk3 and it's confirmed to get hammer from France . Elta spj is also bound to be superior to whatever jf17 is getting .

In wvr mk1a has tested python 5 and will soon get asraam. Both are far superior to chinese counterparts.

Lca also showcased hot refueling which saab touted as a great feature of gripen . Don't know if jf17 has it ?? probably not.

 

[Lonewolf]

So finally even JF17 is actually matching upto the Tejas.
- Addition of the 3 channel Fly by wire
-AESA radar
-More composites in the airframe
-Dual pylons
-Addition of an extra hardpoint
Will match Tejas mk1A

While some features such as
-Addition of MAWS
- Large screen with sensor fusion
-Missiles like PL15
will surpass it.

Areas where Tejas is still ahead though-
-Engine
-higher usage of composites
-maintainability?

I mean , i cant believe , they are still "Equipping" Tejas with Astra mk1 since like the last 6-8 months...and still not even a single flight trial..

Air cooled aesa
Not qudraplex fbw
Less composite than old f 16
Dual pylons ? U mean dual launcher
Extra hardpoint for electronics
Maws is a good addition
Large screen ? Not much of a game changer
Pl15 , let Astra mk2 come , it will be integrated

 

[THESIS THORON]

Tejas is still ahead with respect to fly by wire as it has quadruplex digital fly by wire.

Mk1a is also getting sensor fusion. It will get pylon based maws later . Similarly Derby ER test remains in vauge as of now . Janes reported It but IAF is mute.

Mk1a also has refueling probe over jf17 bk3 and it's confirmed to get hammer from France . Elta spj is also bound to be superior to whatever jf17 is getting .

In wvr mk1a has tested python 5 and will soon get asraam. Both are far superior to chinese counterparts.

Lca also showcased hot refueling which saab touted as a great feature of gripen . Don't know if jf17 has it ?? probably not.

ONLY problem is bvr, but that will get solved as uttam comes.

imo they might integrate uttam to mk1 also.

 

[IndianHawk]

Air cooled aesa
Not qudraplex fbw
Less composite than old f 16
Dual pylons ? U mean dual launcher
Extra hardpoint for electronics
Maws is a good addition
Large screen ? Not much of a game changer
Pl15 , let Astra mk2 come , it will be integrated

Derby ER will come faster to counter pl15E. But I think Derby ER is already here and hence why porks are so eager for pl15E.

From Janes report=
The Python 5 test-firings were the last in a series of missile trials designed to validate the aircraft’s performance under “extremely challenging scenarios”, noted the PIB, adding that the I-Derby ER (extended range) beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM), which is also made by Rafael, was also test-fired.