LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Bleh]

Possible Combat Scenarios between LCA and JF 17.

Based on the type of missions these Multirole fighters can perform ,the Author have assumed possible Combat Scenarios of both. Taking into consideration the Flight Characteristics of LCA mk1 and JF...

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Possible Combat Scenarios between LCA & Tejas

1st one is so bad that its almost comical!.. Middle ones get successively better but still baloney. Last two don't apply anymore.

1. No LCA will ever go for deep stike when we have Mirage & Rafale... Ordnance payload will be simply smaller than Mirage or Rafale. Not to mention it will prefer Brahmos-NG.

2/3. Porks would however used FC-1 for strike. Which means LCA from forward bases like Srinagar will be first to respond... But again in that case LCA will try to BVR the sluggish package, before engaging the F-16 escorts. I doubt they'll ever be able to reach the target with the delivery.

4. NLCA is gone & FC-1 will face TEDBF/ORCA which will eat it for lunch.

5. Mark2/ORCA + Brahmos-NG.

The author has grandly fail to take into account the basic fact that LCA is our lowest end jet & meant for support roles.

 

[patriots]

1st one is so bad that its almost comical!.. Middle ones get successively better but still baloney. Last two don't apply anymore.

1. No LCA will ever go for deep stike when we have Mirage & Rafale... Ordnance payload will be simply smaller than Mirage or Rafale. Not to mention it will prefer Brahmos-NG.

2/3. Porks would however used FC-1 for strike. Which means LCA from forward bases like Srinagar will be first to respond... But again in that case LCA will try to BVR the sluggish package, before engaging the F-16 escorts. I doubt they'll ever be able to reach the target with the delivery.

4. NLCA is gone & FC-1 will face TEDBF/ORCA which will eat it for lunch.

5. Mark2/ORCA + Brahmos-NG.

The author has grandly fail to take into account the basic fact that LCA is our lowest end jet & meant for support roles.

Bdw .....lca with Brahmos ng
And saaw bomb...,can do deep strike......
Bdw some one YouTube saying ,saaw 50 lsp are in production ,I searched but didn't find anyone
Bdw most of the time we expect a lot

 

[Bleh]

Some size comparisons...

 

[varun9509]

@Bleh Two noob questions.

1. Will the low RCS really help Tejas in dogfights? Yes if we speculate the RCS, is seems quite low. But when it is carrying weapons it is going increase the RCS so in dogfights Pork's F16 can detect the aircraft early. Then it will only depend on who is carrying the greater range missile and a better jammer at that dogfight.

2. Why isn't IRST part of Mk1(a)? It seems pretty inexpensive thing size-wise and cost-wise? Is it unnecessary for the role Tejas is made for?

 

[Bleh]

@Bleh Two noob questions.

1. Will the low RCS really help Tejas in dogfights? Yes if we speculate the RCS, is seems quite low. But when it is carrying weapons it is going increase the RCS so in dogfights Pork's F16 can detect the aircraft early. Then it will only depend on who is carrying the greater range missile and a better jammer at that dogfight.

2. Why isn't IRST part of Mk1(a)? It seems pretty inexpensive thing size-wise and cost-wise? Is it unnecessary for the role Tejas is made for?

Giving noob answers in layman's terms.

1. In A2A config, more or less. Especially if it has radar switched off using AWACS data link instead... Once it punches tanks it'll carry a pair of BVR & WVR missiles. That shouldn't have too much RCS over clean config.

Still external stealthy weapons pods would be good.


2. The lightening pod can double as IRST, confirmed by HVT.

 

[patriots]

@Bleh Two noob questions.

1. Will the low RCS really help Tejas in dogfights? Yes if we speculate the RCS, is seems quite low. But when it is carrying weapons it is going increase the RCS so in dogfights Pork's F16 can detect the aircraft early. Then it will only depend on who is carrying the greater range missile and a better jammer at that dogfight.

2. Why isn't IRST part of Mk1(a)? It seems pretty inexpensive thing size-wise and cost-wise? Is it unnecessary for the role Tejas is made for?

Dogfight means close combat..
Low RCS does not helps in close combat or dogfight
Low RCS will help a fighter....suppose a jet has A radar ,which can track a object of 5m2 from 150 km
1m2 from 100 km
And 0.5 m2 object in 50 km
Then this jet can only see Tejas at below 50 km ,as Tejas has 0.5m2 rca with weapon and 0.3 m2 rca in clean configuration

Again let Tejas too has a radra with same capability
5m2 from 150 km
1m2 from 100 km
And 0.5 m2 object in 50 km
But the other jet has RCS of 1m2
So Tejas can see the jet at 100 km....so it can fire first......
So RCS is useful for bvr fight ......
Also low RCS jets can be useful to do strike s ...by fooling the enemy radar........

.........tried to make you understand

 

[piKacHHu]

2. Why isn't IRST part of Mk1(a)? It seems pretty inexpensive thing size-wise and cost-wise? Is it unnecessary for the role Tejas is made for?

IRST is good for Passive detection; IAF has plenty of experience with embedded IRST in Mig 29 and MKI. Putting powerful RADAR for detection at longer ranges has its own short-coming, It will consume more power and alert the hostile forces which is sniffing EM emission through passive means like RWR. So, having IR based passive sensors come handy to maintain low electronic observability.

For Tejas, there is a space crunch which doesn't allow it to fit at the front of the cockpit. That's why they will utilize external PODs for IRST. I am not sure about exact specification of LITENING Pod, but in most of the cases these pods consist of FLIR + Laser range finder. IRST & FLIR are based on same IR based principle but the difference comes in the field of view (FOV) & tracking ability, IRST has much larger FOV as compared to FLIR for target detection. FLIR at best could be employed for 20-30 kms range, that probably will be utilized in WVR. But for complete A2A role, integrated IRST is always better as compared to external POD. (Lower drag as compared to the external POD)

IR/Optical based detection systems are evolving further so much so that it's claimed that F-35 DAS can detect ballistic missile launches up to 500+ kms or even more. But considering 4+ gen & Indian scenario, they act as a tool for situational awareness; i.e. it can detect the target but can't get its exact vector (direction, speed, & location) over which Firing solution could be calculated at longer ranges. May be we can find solace in the fact, that the US till the arrival of F-35 doesn't put enough impetus on integrated IRST on their fighter fleet.

At best, Tejas Mk1A/Mk1 as part of strike/defensive package could be cued by other aircraft like Mig 29/MKI with IRST so that they will keep getting closer to achieve better chances of kill without being detected earlier.

 

[varun9509]

@piKacHHu , @patriots , @Bleh.

Thanks for the answers guys. Everyday I learn new stuff about aircrafts from all of you.
You guys are awesome

 

[Karthi]

1st one is so bad that its almost comical!.. Middle ones get successively better but still baloney. Last two don't apply anymore.

1. No LCA will ever go for deep stike when we have Mirage & Rafale... Ordnance payload will be simply smaller than Mirage or Rafale. Not to mention it will prefer Brahmos-NG.

2/3. Porks would however used FC-1 for strike. Which means LCA from forward bases like Srinagar will be first to respond... But again in that case LCA will try to BVR the sluggish package, before engaging the F-16 escorts. I doubt they'll ever be able to reach the target with the delivery.

4. NLCA is gone & FC-1 will face TEDBF/ORCA which will eat it for lunch.

5. Mark2/ORCA + Brahmos-NG.

The author has grandly fail to take into account the basic fact that LCA is our lowest end jet & meant for support roles.

Just chill don't over think , it is about possible Combat scenarios that may or may not be occur , why over thinking?

There may be chances did we ever imagined our Mig 21 face F16 which is atleast a generation ahead

 

[Karthi]

@Bleh Two noob questions.

1. Will the low RCS really help Tejas in dogfights? Yes if we speculate the RCS, is seems quite low. But when it is carrying weapons it is going increase the RCS so in dogfights Pork's F16 can detect the aircraft early. Then it will only depend on who is carrying the greater range missile and a better jammer at that dogfight.

2. Why isn't IRST part of Mk1(a)? It seems pretty inexpensive thing size-wise and cost-wise? Is it unnecessary for the role Tejas is made for?

RCS is a very complex thing to calculate , it depends on the Types of Radar waves , Type of Radar tech , orientation of the Aircraft . As an example if an unstealthy Aircraft chasing a Stealthy Aircraft which isn't have 360 degree radar coverage then Unstealthy Aircraft detect the Stealthy one first .

As in the case of Tejas it's RCS is 0.5 in clean configuration and F16 block C 1.2 With Weapons both have greater RCS , but I wont think a slight advantage in RCS doesn't make much difference. And RCS doesn't matter within Visual range and Dog fight battles. It matters most in BVR , with the help of AWACS both parties can detect each other but depends on the quality of AWACS and onboard sensors .

 

[piKacHHu]

As an example if an unstealthy Aircraft chasing a Stealthy Aircraft which isn't have 360 degree radar coverage then Unstealthy Aircraft detect the Stealthy one first .

I doubt that it would happen in real life; the un-stealthy aircraft with its RADAR emission in tracking mode will alert the Stealthy aircraft much before it could detect it. (Assuming the RWR/passive sensors are working on "Stealthy" aircraft).

That's the possible reason that the USAF doesn't bother much about powerful radars on board Su-35 because they know the moment Su-35 start tracking them they will in turn sniff-out their location in the skies based on its emissions.

 

[Bleh]

Super HD stuff... Unfortunately no photos of it carrying payload are available.

 

[tsunami]

Low RCS will help a fighter....suppose a jet has A radar ,which can track a object of 5m2 from 150 km
1m2 from 100 km
And 0.5 m2 object in 50 km

If a radar can detect 1m2 object at 100 km, it will still detect a 0.5 m2 object at 80+ km range. You will have to go below 0.1 m2 to be stealthy upto 50km against same radar.

 

[rohit b3]

1st one is so bad that its almost comical!.. Middle ones get successively better but still baloney. Last two don't apply anymore.

1. No LCA will ever go for deep stike when we have Mirage & Rafale... Ordnance payload will be simply smaller than Mirage or Rafale. Not to mention it will prefer Brahmos-NG.

2/3. Porks would however used FC-1 for strike. Which means LCA from forward bases like Srinagar will be first to respond... But again in that case LCA will try to BVR the sluggish package, before engaging the F-16 escorts. I doubt they'll ever be able to reach the target with the delivery.

4. NLCA is gone & FC-1 will face TEDBF/ORCA which will eat it for lunch.

5. Mark2/ORCA + Brahmos-NG.

The author has grandly fail to take into account the basic fact that LCA is our lowest end jet & meant for support roles.

The article assumes the year of 2030.
Do you really think we would wanna send some 1980s Mirage2000 deep into enemy territory when we have a matured Tejas mk1A then with powerful AESA radar and EW suites, and offcourse lower RCs?

And talking about BrahMos-NG, its a costly missile with an unit cost of 2.75mil$. So would you wanna use a 2.75 mil$ missile to destroy a 100$ bunker or maybe a 1 mil$ military installation?

 

[Bleh]

The article assumes the year of 2030.

Oh. Didn't notice that... 2030 huh?

Do you really think we would wanna send some 2020s Tejas Mark1 deep into enemy territory when we have a matured MWF/Rafale then with powerful AESA radar and EW suites, and offcourse lower RCS?

For bunkers glide bombs will be used most likely.

 

[rohit b3]

Oh. Didn't notice that... 2030 huh?

Do you really think we would wanna send some 2020s Tejas Mark1 deep into enemy territory when we have a matured MWF/Rafale then with powerful AESA radar and EW suites, and offcourse lower RCs?

Rafale is in teeny tiny numbers, with much lower availability than Tejas. But yes, for certain missions, Rafale can be used, but i would rather prefer to use to for deeper penetration/Air supremacy.
MWF is a good choice, but it would have just entered service during that period and the pilots would be familiarizing with the cockpit and new systems.
Hence my mainstay choice would continue to be the Tejas mk1A(not mk1).

 

[Bleh]

Rafale is in teeny tiny numbers...

Exactly, just like Mirage-2000... I have a strong feeling that until AMCA is available Rafale is only going to be used for deep strikes.

Air-superiority & support roles are for Su-30, Mig-29 & Tejas. MWF & Jaguar would fill in CAS & interdiction.

 

[BeEverVectorMan]

I am new here and I have been taking lots of interest in our own CA
Just wanna know if kaveri engine passes all the test then will Tejas get a boost

 

[airtel]

I am new here and I have been taking lots of interest in our own CA
Just wanna know if kaveri engine passes all the test then will Tejas get a boost

Kaveri already passed all the tests and certified by safran as flightworthy but it is a 3rd generation engine not suitable for modern jets as its fuel consumption and weight are more so the range/ performance of Tejas would be reduced .
So DRDO is working on a new generation of engine which would used in the later variants of Amca , orca and Mwf and which would replace the GE414 .

 

[BeEverVectorMan]

Kaveri already passed all the tests and certified by safran as flightworthy but it is a 3rd generation engine not suitable for modern jets as its fuel consumption and weight are more so the range/ performance of Tejas would be reduced .
So DRDO is working on a new generation of engine which would used in the later variants of Amca , orca and Mwf and which would replace the GE414 .

Thanks so much and do we update here regarding this new generation of engines on which DRDO is working