LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

Whitecollar

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highly unlikely CAATSA will bother us if they are negotiating with turkey for giving back them f35!
especially when INDIA matters in their strategic interests…
View attachment 132703https://eurasiantimes.com/f-35-fighters-us-turkey-to-negotiate-reacquisition-stealth-aircraft/
Whether US imposes CAATSA or not is secondary. If India wants to become a super power, it has to focus on Kaveri's completion and integration process. We can't keep buying stuffs off the shelf and expect there won't be a backstab, consequence, so looney US president will impose CAATSA...

As Monalazy and a lot of others say in Kaveri thread: We desparately need our own FTB/s if we even dream of being self reliant in aerospace field.
 

Ar.gaurav28

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Whether US imposes CAATSA or not is secondary. If India wants to become a super power, it has to focus on Kaveri's completion and integration process. We can't keep buying stuffs off the shelf and expect there won't be a backstab, consequence, so looney US president will impose CAATSA...

As Monalazy and a lot of others say in Kaveri thread: We desparately need our own FTB/s if we even dream of being self reliant in aerospace field.
I agree completely we need to be self reliant & even tejas mk2 with f414 is underpowered just 90-95kn in Indian conditions, but things are underway hopefully as rumours suggest the jv partner will be finalised this defexpo22 and will have the much needed 110kn with space for 20% possible thrust increase for future needs…these things need time!! We need to ask UPA and the people voted for them wtf they achieved from 2004-2014 that was the decade wasted(the very time china accelerated), right now the time we needing to decide is good we need to be sure about our needs and the reliability of our partner as this will be a marriage for 3-5decades, both Safran & RR are really good at what they do…GTRE & HAL can never compete with them not because of talent but because of the bureaucracy here! Thus the much needed JV…
On 26Jan there will be 75 other fighters but no tejas, it certainly does raises some eyebrows…
 

Rajaraja Chola

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There's definitely pain involved- and given our babudom they are not known to move fast, things will only move the day after CAATSA sanctions kick in. However, RD-33 was a possible option all those years back when it was F404 vs EJ200- but it was not even in the running then- because of being smokey, unreliable etc. Besides one of the trump cards of Tejas has been the ever-reliable F404 otherwise there is room for a more equal-equal comparison with Thunda fighter.

So if after burning Kaveri is years away from being ready for Tejas- and we need a non-American jet engine replacement for Tejas right away- shouldn't it be the EJ200 which may be fuel-guzzling but eminently more powerful than F404? Unless that is also impacted by CAATSA. :shock:

If both EJ200 & F404 are out of reach and air worthy Kaveri/M-88 core'd Kaveri are years away from realization only then RD-33 is a possible option. The problem is if CAATSA kicks in this unlikely scenario becomes a reality suddenly.

But that is such a slap on the face of our foreign policy & years of planning- just for a moment stand back and think of the debilitating impact it will have on Mk2, AMCA & TEDBF. All those 202x timelines confidently announced by GTRE slip into 203x-4x as we need 10-15 years to drop everything else and focus on getting our jet engine right. :scared2:

We will have to go at it like the Chinese- good for us I say!
Kaveri with M88 core itself needs a lot of work. Remember M88 engine in itselfs Maz thrust is 75kn. Our kaveri has more thrust than M88 at around 83KN but it is unable to sustain for longer duration.
So my guess is Kaveri can sustain btw 70-75KN wet thrust. We all know it's dry thrust is around 50KN and have no problems with that.

So first Safran has to modify and uprate their core in M88 to like 90KN+ first. And then we can integrate with Kaveri with other hardware mods. If we are going core replacement path, we have to pay for both process of development. A reason why Safran quoted nearly 3B on their end (4B-1B offsets) and asked India to invest another 3B on our end for an final working Kaveri version. French have a habit of quoting huge amount of money. But the max they could do is reduce 1-1.5 B. If India wants to do an JV, engine development along would cost 2-3B for ann single engine.
 

Kharavela

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How come MoD came to know that your friend channel is planning to make a such show??

May be it was a advisory but it doesn’t mean there was conspiracy. Government often issues advisory in the matter of national security/ interest. Otherwise we all know at what extent our beloved media could go?
In a haste to reply, you probably skipped this:

Just after CDS Rawat's death was confirmed, his news agency planned a debate on the same lines you are raising. As they asked MoD for official response, they got unofficial request not to pursue that suspicion angle.
Please read that again.

Don’t know about Dr Bhaba but none of above was a murder

Due to watching too much Bollywood movies and Dramatic TV serials during childhood People nowadays don’t believe that affluent person can also die a natural death or could met with accident.

I never believe in conspiracy theories. Truth can be seen through the wall
The accidents & deaths I have mentioned are not theories, those are real. If you want to discuss each case, let's not derail this thread and move to chit chat thread. Or simply search the accidents on internet.

As Byron correctly said: Truth is stranger than fiction.
 

Kharavela

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I didn't prove anything... And I'm not that well-read... You assume a lot of things...
You should know the deference of perception & assumption. I appreciate your humbleness with not that well-read phrase.


You think IAF's doctrine is only defending Air Space...? Then who will attack targets in enemy land...? Who does the breaking-in of enemy Air Defence assets...? Who does dominating of enemy air space so that Army can move in...?
Have you read the IAF Doctrine last updated in 2012 ? Let me quote from that:
"Control of the air is seen not merely as the most fundamental role of airpower (to protect the nation-state from attack) and a vital prerequisite for all other operations but also as the capability to defend a nation and provide freedom of maneuver as a deterrent in itself."
Note the key-phrases "protect the nation from attack", "capability to defend a nation" and "deterrent in itself". As we know from the history, IAF never and I repeat never planned / executed an expeditionary mission. To know more about IAF's doctrinal contradictions and debacles, please read this -->

Exploring Indian Airpower Doctrine and Debacles In The Himalayas

@vishnugupt You stated that Inter-Service rivalry is fake narrative. I suggest you to read the above link which has detailed accounts of IA & IAF blaming each other during 1962 & Kargil.
 

Kharavela

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Don't say UAVs and Drones... Drones work only in safe air space... In contested air-space, drones are roast...
If that's so, please tell me Is it safer to use a manned aircraft in contested air-space ? Or a remotely piloted unmanned system (which is expendable) in such situation ? Imagine yourself as Theater Commander and decide, would you prefer to risk life of your men or send the expendable machine instead ?

Every Air Force is planning to build manned aircraft and every 6th Gen program currently in plans is a twin-engine medium/heavy jet... Yes they have MUM teaming capability, but those are for speacial missions... Manned Aircrafts are here to stay...
Read this: Unmanned aerial vehicles in the United States armed services by Thomas P. Ehrhard

Even to defend one own air space, you need both defending fighters AND multiple levels of SAM systems... No Air Force buys a bunch of SAMs snd stay put...
Agreed, 100%
 

Kharavela

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Due to watching too much Bollywood movies and Dramatic TV serials during childhood People nowadays don’t believe that affluent person can also die a natural death or could met with accident.
During my high school years, there were very few TV serials such as Humlog, Nukkad apart from Ramayan, Rangoli & Chitrahaar. Didn't have the luxury of watching too much bollywood movies and dramatic tv serials then. :crying::crying:
 

Kharavela

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No Comments...
While my post was more of a general observation based on various numbers which IAF gave to media at various times regarding their procurement plans, I definitely wouldn't call Air Force planners as idiots for planning it... Particularly when I type this sitting in my chair and I don't have skin-in-the-game...
My comment was conditional in nature and started with IF YOUR WORDS <your words> ARE TRUE. I am willing to stand by my comment.

We cannot simply convert retired MIG jets into Unmanned systems... It doesn't work that way...
The best we can do with them is use them as Kamikaze drones... Beyond that, they're pretty useless after retirement...
It is better to build new UAVs than convert these vintage jets into UAVs...
US Air Force must be dumb. :daru::daru:
The US Air Force is turning old F-16s into pilotless AI-powered fighters
F-16 into Pilotless AI-powered fighters
 

Rajaraja Chola

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My comment was conditional in nature and started with IF YOUR WORDS <your words> ARE TRUE. I am willing to stand by my comment.



US Air Force must be dumb. :daru::daru:
The US Air Force is turning old F-16s into pilotless AI-powered fighters
F-16 into Pilotless AI-powered fighters
I think the other poster has a point. Even if one converts the Mig into an drone, it's cost will higher through high maintenance. So will be the same for F16. Primary reason for drones is they are cheap to operate and maintain. USAF has money to probably convert some 100 fighters of thousands it operates. Do IAF has that luxury?
 

WolfPack86

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Improved Light Combat Aircraft Tejas MK-1A to take first flight in June
India’s ‘Light Combat Aircraft Tejas MK-1A fighter aircraft with AESA radar to take flight in June this year.


Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) expects to deliver all Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas in the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) variant to the Indian Air Force (IAF) in 2022 while the LCA MK-1A, with specific enhancements, will take flight by middle of this year, said R. Madhavan, Chief Managing Director, HAL.

“We will be attempting at least 6-8 aircraft (LCA) this year. All 10 aircraft are already ready, there are some systems to be delivered from Israel. If that happens in time, we can deliver all 10,” Mr. Madhavan told The Hindu talking of the hectic calendar HAL has for this year. “By June this year we should start flying the LCA MK-1A configuration. Once flying starts, we have about 20 to 24 months of testing. Once that is done, we will be ready for deliveries as expected.”

Last February the Defence Ministry had signed a ₹48,000 crore deal with HAL to supply 83 LCA MK-1A to the IAF. HAL will be delivering the first three aircraft in 2024 and 16 aircraft per year for subsequent five years, the Defence Ministry had stated earlier.

We will start manufacturing activities parallel with the testing, Mr. Madhavan said on LCA MK-1A schedule. With COVID-19 cases surging again, there could be some delay if the work schedule is disrupted.

To ramp up production, HAL has already set up two additional assembly lines. Stating that all three LCA assembly lines are operational now, Mr. Madhavan said the back end of the lines is what they are finishing now including the supply of sub-assemblies by vendors.

There are minor changes on structure design in Tejas mk1A compared to Tejas mk1 (FOC) version Presently, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has completed the structural design phase of HAL Tejas Mk1A and final designs are likely to be cleared for production by early-2021. This will be followed by manufacturing, system integration, and around 200 test fights before Tejas Mk1A is cleared for mass production by mid-2022. Mark 1A variant of the LCA will come with around 40 major and minor improvements over Mark 1

Tejas FOC Features


SP-21 boasts of key features like air-to-air refuelling probe, Gsh-23 mm gun, pressure refuelling with three drop tank configuration, improved wing navigation lamp, tandem pylon and auto-low speed recovery to name a few. Here’s a quick glance at the new features :

Air-to-air refuelling probe: This novel feature of mid-air refuelling introduced to FOC variants will enhance the range without additional touchdowns or pit-stops to refuel. This is the first desi fighter to have this feature.

Fuel system enhancement: Over and above 2350 kg fuel carrying capability of IOC variant with its external drop tanks of 1200 and 800 litres capacity, Tejas FOC has an additional 725 litres centre line drop tank with pressure refuelling.

Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles: The reliable Derby missile has expanded the firing envelope making it more lethal. This feature was tested and cleared for the entire FOC envelope via the exhaustive study of missile separation characteristics.

GSH 23 mm twin barrelled gun: This Russian gun underwent extensive butt firing at Nasik before getting on board SP-21. The integral gun would give an edge to the pilot in case of a close-combat scenario.

LCA-MK2 roll out by year end or early 2023
The design for LCA MK-2, a much bigger aircraft, has been frozen and some of the manufacturing activities have started. Hopefully by this year end or early 2023 we should have the first roll out of the aircraft, and one year after that it will be taking to the skies, Mr. Madhavan said. “We are targeting early 2023 but we should be able to do it slightly early.”

The LCA MK-2 features enhanced range and endurance including Onboard Oxygen Generation System (OBOGS), which is being integrated for the first time. Heavy stand off weapons of the class of Scalp, Crystal Maze and Spice-2000 will also be integrated on the MK-2. The MK-2 will be a heavier and much more capable aircraft than the current LCA variants with the aircraft 1350mm longer, featuring canards and can carry a payload of 6,500 kg compared to 3,500 kg by the LCA.

IAF had earlier placed orders for 20 IOC (Initial Operational Configuration) standard aircraft and 20 FOC standard aircraft including eight twin seater trainers. The First LCA squadron with IOC aircraft is complete and the second squadron with FOC has also been operationalised. Once the FOC aircraft are delivered, the twin seater aircraft would be the balance from this order.

The HAL is also expecting the formal contract from the Services for the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) which was formally handed over to the IAF by Prime Minister Narendra Modi at an event in Jhansi in November.

The manufacture of the Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), which has received the Initial Operational Clearance, is also in advanced stages with HAL’s new facility in Tumkur set to be ready by March. The government recently informed in Parliament that four Limited Series Production (LSP) LUH would be manufactured by 2022-23 and eight LSP LUHs by 2023-24.
 

thebakofbakchod

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Improved Light Combat Aircraft Tejas MK-1A to take first flight in June
India’s ‘Light Combat Aircraft Tejas MK-1A fighter aircraft with AESA radar to take flight in June this year.


Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) expects to deliver all Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas in the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) variant to the Indian Air Force (IAF) in 2022 while the LCA MK-1A, with specific enhancements, will take flight by middle of this year, said R. Madhavan, Chief Managing Director, HAL.

“We will be attempting at least 6-8 aircraft (LCA) this year. All 10 aircraft are already ready, there are some systems to be delivered from Israel. If that happens in time, we can deliver all 10,” Mr. Madhavan told The Hindu talking of the hectic calendar HAL has for this year. “By June this year we should start flying the LCA MK-1A configuration. Once flying starts, we have about 20 to 24 months of testing. Once that is done, we will be ready for deliveries as expected.”

Last February the Defence Ministry had signed a ₹48,000 crore deal with HAL to supply 83 LCA MK-1A to the IAF. HAL will be delivering the first three aircraft in 2024 and 16 aircraft per year for subsequent five years, the Defence Ministry had stated earlier.

We will start manufacturing activities parallel with the testing, Mr. Madhavan said on LCA MK-1A schedule. With COVID-19 cases surging again, there could be some delay if the work schedule is disrupted.

To ramp up production, HAL has already set up two additional assembly lines. Stating that all three LCA assembly lines are operational now, Mr. Madhavan said the back end of the lines is what they are finishing now including the supply of sub-assemblies by vendors.

There are minor changes on structure design in Tejas mk1A compared to Tejas mk1 (FOC) version Presently, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has completed the structural design phase of HAL Tejas Mk1A and final designs are likely to be cleared for production by early-2021. This will be followed by manufacturing, system integration, and around 200 test fights before Tejas Mk1A is cleared for mass production by mid-2022. Mark 1A variant of the LCA will come with around 40 major and minor improvements over Mark 1

Tejas FOC Features


SP-21 boasts of key features like air-to-air refuelling probe, Gsh-23 mm gun, pressure refuelling with three drop tank configuration, improved wing navigation lamp, tandem pylon and auto-low speed recovery to name a few. Here’s a quick glance at the new features :

Air-to-air refuelling probe: This novel feature of mid-air refuelling introduced to FOC variants will enhance the range without additional touchdowns or pit-stops to refuel. This is the first desi fighter to have this feature.

Fuel system enhancement: Over and above 2350 kg fuel carrying capability of IOC variant with its external drop tanks of 1200 and 800 litres capacity, Tejas FOC has an additional 725 litres centre line drop tank with pressure refuelling.

Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles: The reliable Derby missile has expanded the firing envelope making it more lethal. This feature was tested and cleared for the entire FOC envelope via the exhaustive study of missile separation characteristics.

GSH 23 mm twin barrelled gun: This Russian gun underwent extensive butt firing at Nasik before getting on board SP-21. The integral gun would give an edge to the pilot in case of a close-combat scenario.

LCA-MK2 roll out by year end or early 2023
The design for LCA MK-2, a much bigger aircraft, has been frozen and some of the manufacturing activities have started. Hopefully by this year end or early 2023 we should have the first roll out of the aircraft, and one year after that it will be taking to the skies, Mr. Madhavan said. “We are targeting early 2023 but we should be able to do it slightly early.”

The LCA MK-2 features enhanced range and endurance including Onboard Oxygen Generation System (OBOGS), which is being integrated for the first time. Heavy stand off weapons of the class of Scalp, Crystal Maze and Spice-2000 will also be integrated on the MK-2. The MK-2 will be a heavier and much more capable aircraft than the current LCA variants with the aircraft 1350mm longer, featuring canards and can carry a payload of 6,500 kg compared to 3,500 kg by the LCA.

IAF had earlier placed orders for 20 IOC (Initial Operational Configuration) standard aircraft and 20 FOC standard aircraft including eight twin seater trainers. The First LCA squadron with IOC aircraft is complete and the second squadron with FOC has also been operationalised. Once the FOC aircraft are delivered, the twin seater aircraft would be the balance from this order.

The HAL is also expecting the formal contract from the Services for the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) which was formally handed over to the IAF by Prime Minister Narendra Modi at an event in Jhansi in November.

The manufacture of the Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), which has received the Initial Operational Clearance, is also in advanced stages with HAL’s new facility in Tumkur set to be ready by March. The government recently informed in Parliament that four Limited Series Production (LSP) LUH would be manufactured by 2022-23 and eight LSP LUHs by 2023-24.
Yes keep going. Keep pushing the date behind by a few months every other week and pretend no one will notice
 

Whitecollar

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Yes keep going. Keep pushing the date behind by a few months every other week and pretend no one will notice
Infact Mr Madhavan is the only CMD that I know of who has been repeatedly lying about delivery dates, kept failing on that too and still holds such a position without a single finger being raised on him.

Don't we all want such a "no strings attached" job in life??
 

Love Charger

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Infact Mr Madhavan is the only CMD that I know of who has been repeatedly lying about delivery dates, kept failing on that too and still holds such a position without a single finger being raised on him.

Don't we all want such a "no strings attached" job in life??
It's the best kind of job
 

Ar.gaurav28

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Infact Mr Madhavan is the only CMD that I know of who has been repeatedly lying about delivery dates, kept failing on that too and still holds such a position without a single finger being raised on him.

Don't we all want such a "no strings attached" job in life??
We need atleast 300+ fighter in next 10-15 years…

That could only be achieved via a competition… In which Tejas mk2 to be developed by Tata-LM & ORCA/TEDBF by Mahindra-Boeing, with ADA & HAL overseeing both the companies…and focusing totally on AMCA!

Thus two fighters will definitely meeting IAF standards and will be on time & which ever fighter IAF like the most can go with 200 of that and 100 of the other.

It will create an ecosystem and also reduce our dependence on foreign products plus two more potent platforms to sell in international markets.

& most importantly

ADA & HAL putting all the efforts and time in AMCA!!

Gripen isn’t totally indigenous still it is a potent fighter we should act smart rather than trying to be jack of all trades
 

MonaLazy

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MonaLazy

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Tejas quality
Here's a more comprehensive thread on the same..


Many critics of the Tejas will tell you that this gap on the tail, where the engine nozzle meets the fuselage, is a result of poor build quality of the Tejas. However this is far from the case! Let me explain

1642676433807.png




Firstly, notice this symbol. It indicates that the gap is a engine bleed air heat exchanger. Bleed air is the compressed air taken from the compressor stage. This hot air can be used for various functions e.g. deicing, powering pumps, etc. In the LCA it is used for ECS.

1642676446838.png


1642676483387.png




After cycling through the aircraft for whatever of the many purposes it is used for, it is still hot, and addition ducts might be needed on the exterior to get rid of this heat. Diagram for LCA's bleed exchange system: Source: GP Ravishankar, Sc ‘F’
1642676521218.png




This is what the engine bleed air heat exchanger is needed for, to get rid of the hot bleed air. The Tejas is not the only aircraft with such an arrangement, the Eurofighter has a similar system, as you can identify by the bleed air exchanger symbol. Image Credit:
@BurkhardDomke
1642676569327.png




The early prototype vehicles had a different arrangement. So, they did not have this gap. Hence it is definitely not a case of poor build!

1642676612274.png


1642676623902.png



However, Mao Sir is not happy- it could have probably been done better:


When you extol a workaround as a great virtue, you run the risk of repeating rubbish work ad nauseum! Praising the wrong things is almost as bad as unthinking criticism
 

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