LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

cannonfodder

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I really hope we don't waste any resources to integrate RD33 which in most likely hood has no synergy with local IAF requirement or potential benefit in integrating indigenous kaveri engine. Otherwise it will be lot to chew just for export and don't know when we will start breaking even with all internal / FCS changes requirement.

Between doesn't it makes sense to try RD33 when we have Kaveri?
 

Whitecollar

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Isn't it as good as modifying the air-frame as everything is built around the engine.
The way Kaveri was designed(around F404), it would take much lesser airframe modification for integration compared to a 3rd engine coming out of nowhere. I hope they finish integrating the existing Kaveri with an LSP and start collecting vital data.

It's high time our babus are woken up from chamchagiri, chandigarh lobby's hypnosis and made to work for building our nation.
 

Rajaraja Chola

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Isn't it as good as modifying the air-frame as everything is built around the engine.
If you are asking me does it takes time, then yes. I would say 2-3 years for Indian Defence standard timeline.

But this discussion is quite unnecessary. We aren't going to integrate anyway. As far as engine is concerned we are firmly in US camp.
 

Javelin_Sam

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The way Kaveri was designed(around F404), it would take much lesser airframe modification for integration compared to a 3rd engine coming out of nowhere. I hope they finish integrating the existing Kaveri with an LSP and start collecting vital data.

It's high time our babus are woken up from chamchagiri, chandigarh lobby's hypnosis and made to work for building our nation.
Kaveri won't go into Tejas atleast in the next 5 years.
 

MonaLazy

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The way Kaveri was designed(around F404), it would take much lesser
That's incorrect. Kaveri wasn't designed around the GE engine. It pursued an independent path and was tightly coupled to Tejas in initial days of the program.

Only when the Kaveri program faltered did they suddenly switch to Americans by decoupling Kaveri & Tejas. That change was unplanned and disruptive- adding about 5 years to the Tejas program. If Kaveri is to now make it back into Tejas it will have to be carefully weighed decision- of course the pros are obvious but the cons are a large redoing of the engine mating work to account for Kaveri's weight and consequent movement in center of mass in the plane, testing in all flight regimes slowly expanding its envelope. Will consume both time and effort even from the point that Kaveri is certified as air worthy. It's not a simple drop fit. In my personal opinion it is totally worth it- even if Kaveri cannot match the performance and reliability of F404. But what the IAF & aero establishments of the country think is what matters in the end.
 
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Aditya Ballal

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That's incorrect. Kaveri wasn't designed around the GE engine. It pursued an independent path and was tightly coupled to Tejas in initial days of the program.

Only when the Kaveri program faltered did they suddenly switch to Americans by decoupling Kaveri & Tejas. That change was unplanned and disruptive- adding about 5 years to the Tejas program. If Kaveri is to now make it back into Tejas it will have to be carefully weighed decision- of course the pros are obvious but the cons are a large redoing of the engine mating work to account for Kaveri's weight and consequent movement in center of mass in the plane, testing in all flight regimes slowly expanding its envelope. Will consume both time and effort even from the point that Kaveri is certified as air worthy. It's not a simple drop fit.
I think the question now arises, if this news is even true, IMO it’s not, does it make more sense integrating Kaveri (if it’s ready in a few years) or RD-33, as both will definitely require modifications.
 

Whitecollar

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I think the question now arises, if this news is even true, IMO it’s not, does it make more sense integrating Kaveri (if it’s ready in a few years) or RD-33, as both will definitely require modifications.
IAF, in all sense and purpose, will never give green signal for any single engine derived fighter be it an AL31 based MK2 or RD-33 based MK1A(even Russia hasn't been so brave despite using RD-33 since 80s). They've faced numerous engine failure incidents in the past especially with RD33 and now that you've spoiled them with one of the most reliable engine in the world, they simply won't budge.

That being said, we have a better chance of using Safran's core inside Kaveri and then integrating it on LSPs than using RD-33s
 

MonaLazy

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I think the question now arises, if this news is even true, IMO it’s not, does it make more sense integrating Kaveri (if it’s ready in a few years) or RD-33, as both will definitely require modifications.
There's definitely pain involved- and given our babudom they are not known to move fast, things will only move the day after CAATSA sanctions kick in. However, RD-33 was a possible option all those years back when it was F404 vs EJ200- but it was not even in the running then- because of being smokey, unreliable etc. Besides one of the trump cards of Tejas has been the ever-reliable F404 otherwise there is room for a more equal-equal comparison with Thunda fighter.

So if after burning Kaveri is years away from being ready for Tejas- and we need a non-American jet engine replacement for Tejas right away- shouldn't it be the EJ200 which may be fuel-guzzling but eminently more powerful than F404? Unless that is also impacted by CAATSA. :shock:

If both EJ200 & F404 are out of reach and air worthy Kaveri/M-88 core'd Kaveri are years away from realization only then RD-33 is a possible option. The problem is if CAATSA kicks in this unlikely scenario becomes a reality suddenly.

But that is such a slap on the face of our foreign policy & years of planning- just for a moment stand back and think of the debilitating impact it will have on Mk2, AMCA & TEDBF. All those 202x timelines confidently announced by GTRE slip into 203x-4x as we need 10-15 years to drop everything else and focus on getting our jet engine right. :scared2:

We will have to go at it like the Chinese- good for us I say!
 
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India Super Power

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There's definitely pain involved- and given our babudom they are not known to move fast, things will only move the day after CAATSA sanctions kick in. However, RD-33 was a possible option all those years back when it was F404 vs EJ200- but it was not even in the running then- because of being smokey, unreliable etc. Besides one of the trump cards of Tejas has been the ever-reliable F404 otherwise there is room for a more equal-equal comparison with Thunda fighter.

So if after burning Kaveri is years away from being ready for Tejas- and we need a non-American jet engine replacement for Tejas right away- shouldn't it be the EJ200 which may be fuel-guzzling but eminently more powerful than F404? Unless that is also impacted by CAATSA. :shock:

If both EJ200 & F404 are out of reach and air worthy Kaveri/M-88 core'd Kaveri are years away from realization only then RD-33 is a possible option. The problem is if CAATSA kicks in this unlikely scenario becomes a reality suddenly.

But that is such a slap on the face of our foreign policy & years of planning- just for a moment stand back and think of the debilitating impact it will have on Mk2, AMCA & TEDBF. All those 202x timelines confidently announced by GTRE slip into 203x-4x as we need 10-15 years to drop everything else and focus on getting our jet engine right. :scared2:

We will have to go at it like the Chinese- good for us I say!
But kaveri with kabhini core is ready but not being tested in air
So if caatsa is imposed then kaveri in tejas can be possible right with our own core
It will 4-5 years but still possible
 

MonaLazy

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But kaveri with kabhini core is ready but not being tested in air
So if caatsa is imposed then kaveri in tejas can be possible right with our own core
It will 4-5 years but still possible
If India commits to it long term then how much time just to acquire a flying testbed? Otherwise, keep paying the Russians through your nose every time.

Then they need to know the process for certifying and testing and ironing out any further bugs that will inevitably show up. In air testing will reveal a lot more gremlins- you can simulate only so much on the ground.

This alone could take 4-5 years. Then re-plumbing a twin-engine fighter or if they are confident & crazy a single-engined Tejas for fitting in Kaveri. Then many years of laborious flight testing- redoing the same things they did with F404 gradually opening up the Gs (for reference please look up Air Cmde Harish Nayani's fantastic interview on Blue Skies Podcast) easily 10-15 years and this is just Mk1 Tejas when are we ever going to start with Mk2, AMCA & TEDBF?? When the F404 which had seen service in F117 nighthawk, the F-18 hornet and even briefly Rafale and many others was put through its paces very conservatively by GTRE/NFTC then there is no reason to believe Kaveri will get an exemption.

In 15 years from now, where will China be? More militarised and an even bigger bully than it is today. :playball:
 
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India Super Power

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If India commits to it long term then how much time just to acquire a flying testbed? Otherwise, keep paying the Russians through your nose every time.

Then they need to know the process for certifying and testing and ironing out any further bugs that will inevitably show up. In air testing will reveal a lot more gremlins- you can simulate only so much on the ground.

This alone could take 4-5 years. Then re-plumbing a twin-engine fighter or if they are confident & crazy a single-engined Tejas for fitting in Kaveri. Then many years of laborious flight testing- redoing the same things they did with F404 gradually opening up the Gs (for reference please look up Air Cmde Harish Nayani's fantastic interview on Blue Skies Podcast) easily 10-15 years and this is just Mk1 Tejas when are we ever going to start with Mk2, AMCA & TEDBF??

In 15 years from now, where will China be? More militarised and an even bigger bully than it is today. :playball:
I was just saying from the other options available this one is also possible nothing else
Everything you have written is right just saying that this option is better in worse case scenario
 

MonaLazy

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I was just saying from the other options available this one is also possible nothing else
Everything you have written is right just saying that this option is better in worse case scenario
No, EJ200 or M88-2 is the next best- available off-the-shelf today- but I'm not sure if they are reliable for single -engine use and if they even have the required redundancies built in at all.

If Amreeka goes cuckoo, & expects Europeans to oblige, will they? After what it did to the French with AUKUS (back stabber!). There's billions of dollars at stake here. We have to make the most of the cracks in the so-called "Western bloc"- they could put up a unified front vs Russia but why should they all rub India the wrong way? Especially when it strengthens China, weakens their own position in Asia.

If we can weather out the pain over the next few months or even years if CAATSA is triggered- long term it is the best strategy. Eventually, China will become so powerful that US will have to come calling here, seeking an alliance & undoing CAATSA. Besides, isn't CAATSA racist? How can you punish two sovereign countries from military transactions with each other if you have a problem with one of them?
 

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