LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[IndianHawk]

Most of the answers of mk1a...mk2...
You want to know............
Here

Another confirmation mwf is going to be rafale lite.

Of the components listed aesa radar is already under testing on lsp.
Unified ew suite under development already.
Digital rwr we have developed one for su30mki so should be able to make one for mwf comfortably.

Irst has been sanctioned to be developed for su30MKI already. So again easy port / modification for mwf .

Sdr under development for su30. So is indegenios high band jammer pod.

Maws has to be developed for su30 upgrade also so may be a common program.

Twin launcher is being prepared for mk1a.

All in all most components of mwf will be ready by the time it's prototype / lsp is ready .


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[Prashant12]

83 LCAs Order: HAL may finally agree to lower price


BENGALURU: Staring at a depleting order book, defence PUS Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) — negotiating price for the 83 Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas aircraft order — is likely to agree to a price that is significantly lower than its quotation.

According to sources privy to the negotiations, HAL quoted Rs 450 crore per aircraft as the basic price. “MoD and IAF (customers) are firm that this price is not competitive and are negotiating for a price that is less than Rs 300 crore per aircraft. Negotiations are nearly complete and final price is likely to be in the range of Rs 250 crore and Rs 275 crore,” a source said.

If the price is Rs 275 crore, then the value of 83 LCAs would be about Rs 22,825 crore compared to Rs 37,350 crore if it was Rs 450 crore. This value would be excluding maintenance and other aspects of the overall deal. It’s noteworthy that former defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman had pegged the total value of LCA order at Rs 50,000 crore in January.

“HAL really has no choice. If we need to sustain our production lines and the employees, we need fresh orders, and this is one of the bigger orders which will go on for at least five years,” a source said.
At present HAL has orders worth only Rs 45,000 crore, with a major concern brewing in its plant in Nasik, which has orders to sustain only until March 2020. According to MoD, HAL has orders for 48 fixed wing aircraft—only 12 of these for Nasik plant—67 helicopters, 80 engines and 26 sets of rocket structures placed by Isro (See graphic).

One source claimed: “The Gripen, which has features similar to LCA, was costing less than Rs 300 crore per plane and that HAL must become competitive and be able to offer similar price.” Gripen is manufactured by Swedish firm SAAB.

Another source said that this would benefit HAL in the long run to increase efficiency to reduce costs. Eventually, the aim is to export LCAs and HAL has already expressed an interest in supplying them to Malaysia. If it wants to export, it needs to price aircraft in the same range as others.

“Why would anybody pay Rs 450 crore for Tejas if they can buy Gripens for cheaper,” the source argued, adding: “Also, HAL quoted 2.5 lakh man hours to build one aircraft and the customers want it to be 1.5 lakh hours,” a source said.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...agree-to-lower-price/articleshow/70823895.cms

 

[varun9509]

83 LCAs Order: HAL may finally agree to lower price


BENGALURU: Staring at a depleting order book, defence PUS Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) — negotiating price for the 83 Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas aircraft order — is likely to agree to a price that is significantly lower than its quotation.

According to sources privy to the negotiations, HAL quoted Rs 450 crore per aircraft as the basic price. “MoD and IAF (customers) are firm that this price is not competitive and are negotiating for a price that is less than Rs 300 crore per aircraft. Negotiations are nearly complete and final price is likely to be in the range of Rs 250 crore and Rs 275 crore,” a source said.

If the price is Rs 275 crore, then the value of 83 LCAs would be about Rs 22,825 crore compared to Rs 37,350 crore if it was Rs 450 crore. This value would be excluding maintenance and other aspects of the overall deal. It’s noteworthy that former defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman had pegged the total value of LCA order at Rs 50,000 crore in January.

“HAL really has no choice. If we need to sustain our production lines and the employees, we need fresh orders, and this is one of the bigger orders which will go on for at least five years,” a source said.
At present HAL has orders worth only Rs 45,000 crore, with a major concern brewing in its plant in Nasik, which has orders to sustain only until March 2020. According to MoD, HAL has orders for 48 fixed wing aircraft—only 12 of these for Nasik plant—67 helicopters, 80 engines and 26 sets of rocket structures placed by Isro (See graphic).

One source claimed: “The Gripen, which has features similar to LCA, was costing less than Rs 300 crore per plane and that HAL must become competitive and be able to offer similar price.” Gripen is manufactured by Swedish firm SAAB.

Another source said that this would benefit HAL in the long run to increase efficiency to reduce costs. Eventually, the aim is to export LCAs and HAL has already expressed an interest in supplying them to Malaysia. If it wants to export, it needs to price aircraft in the same range as others.

“Why would anybody pay Rs 450 crore for Tejas if they can buy Gripens for cheaper,” the source argued, adding: “Also, HAL quoted 2.5 lakh man hours to build one aircraft and the customers want it to be 1.5 lakh hours,” a source said.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...agree-to-lower-price/articleshow/70823895.cms

How can they bring down they price this much? Are they excluding any subsystem in this quote or worse, were they highly overpricing in the previous quote?

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[patriots]

How can they bring down they price this much? Are they excluding any subsystem in this quote or worse, were they highly overpricing in the previous quote?

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By using Uttam aesa....
And using desi ew suite....Indian spj ..
Own dual luncher ..
Astra instead of derby bvr ....
If available in time..
You can use desi systems instead of imported systems to. ..cut prices..
Bdw if hal accept s lower price then it will be a boon....may help in exporting Tejas...
No one will buy Tejas at the price of su30..
Though tejas has aesa ..mm

 

[Deathstar]

How can they bring down they price this much? Are they excluding any subsystem in this quote or worse, were they highly overpricing in the previous quote?

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Exactly i dont understand , 450 crore mounts to approx 64 million dollars (70rs /dollar) which is quite less than other 4.5 gen a/c . If IAF and MoD is ok spending 120 million a piece for Rafale /F16 etc so whats the problem with Tejas?
Jf17 block 3 costs around 35-40 million but we know its chinese maal.
I dont understand about the cost , is HAL overstating or IAF is reluctant to spend on domestic a/c

 

[rohit b3]

If all my calculations are correct, 50,000 crores comes to roughly 7 Bil$. Thats less than 90 mil$ per fighter(the whole deal inclusive of everything).
Compare that to Brazil's Gripen E deal in 2015 - 4.68Bil$ for 36 Gripens, and thats about 130 mil$ each(all inclusive).
And i am pretty sure, Gripen E's price would be slightly higher today, adjusting inflation of 4 years.

So either i am calculating wrong, or these "sources" who say Gripen is cheaper than Tejas needs a massive boot up their..

 

[IndianHawk]

By using Uttam aesa....
And using desi ew suite....Indian spj ..
Own dual luncher ..
Astra instead of derby bvr ....
If available in time..
You can use desi systems instead of imported systems to. ..cut prices..
Bdw if hal accept s lower price then it will be a boon....may help in exporting Tejas...
No one will buy Tejas at the price of su30..
Though tejas has aesa ..mm

The price is for base aircraft without weaponry so using Astra or derby doesn't change it.

However using Uttam + desi ew suite could bring down price substantially not just the outright price of radar and ew suite but also the integration cost of weapons as no Israeli input will be needed .

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[Deathstar]

If all my calculations are correct, 50,000 crores comes to roughly 7 Bil$. Thats less than 90 mil$ per fighter(the whole deal inclusive of everything).
Compare that to Brazil's Gripen E deal in 2015 - 4.68Bil$ for 36 Gripens, and thats about 130 mil$ each(all inclusive).
And i am pretty sure, Gripen E's price would be slightly higher today, adjusting inflation of 4 years.

So either i am calculating wrong, or these "sources" who say Gripen is cheaper than Tejas needs a massive boot up their..

Thats what i feel someone is addicted to imports thus stalling domestic purchase , someone'' commissions are getting affected

 

[IndianHawk]

Exactly i dont understand , 450 crore mounts to approx 64 million dollars (70rs /dollar) which is quite less than other 4.5 gen a/c . If IAF and MoD is ok spending 120 million a piece for Rafale /F16 etc so whats the problem with Tejas?
Jf17 block 3 costs around 35-40 million but we know its chinese maal.
I dont understand about the cost , is HAL overstating or IAF is reluctant to spend on domestic a/c

My guess it's both. IAF doesn't want HAL to earn profit while is happy to fork out premium for rafale or other foreign jets.

HAL on the other hand is inefficient. Look at the man hours quoted .
What is the industry standard man hours for a 4.5 gen fighter?

Mk1a is League ahead of metal junk 17 but steps behind gripen E.

Even at 50-60 million a piece a fighter with composite skin , aesa radar , ew suite , air to air refueling with twin launcher and long range bvr is worth it so much. It's still half the price of gripen E or f16. And it's our own plane we can add anything to it.

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[IndianHawk]

If all my calculations are correct, 50,000 crores comes to roughly 7 Bil$. Thats less than 90 mil$ per fighter(the whole deal inclusive of everything).
Compare that to Brazil's Gripen E deal in 2015 - 4.68Bil$ for 36 Gripens, and thats about 130 mil$ each(all inclusive).
And i am pretty sure, Gripen E's price would be slightly higher today, adjusting inflation of 4 years.

So either i am calculating wrong, or these "sources" who say Gripen is cheaper than Tejas needs a massive boot up their..

These are lying bastards. They compare price of mk1a with gripen c/d but would compare performance of mk1a with gripen E .

Gripen E isn't even ready yet. It's cost will escalate further.

Military inflation runs at 15-20% per annum so price of gripen E today would be 50% higher or more. It won't cost less than 170-200 million .

While mk1a can be had all inclusive within 100 million even if unit price is 60 million.

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[Prashant12]

Talks fail, HAL employees threaten indefinite strike

Alleging gross disparity in workmen salaries and perks, employees of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd have threatened an indefinite strike at all the nine divisions countrywide.

The strike is spearheaded by the All India HAL Trade Unions Coordination Committee (AIHALTUCC). Employees say while officer wages have seen a 35% rise in gross pay and 110 to 145% hike in perks, the management has offered workmen a meagre 6% growth.

Talks between the committee and the HAL management on Saturday failed to reach a consensus. Later, the chief convenor of AIHALTUCC proposed to the entire nine divisions’ unions for an indefinite strike to achieve more than 15% fitment and 35% perks with all other demands.

The decision to launch an indefinite strike was later communicated to the management.

HAL had maintained that there was no justification in the demand to extend the benefits (fitment benefit and allowances) on par or more than the executives, when the salary revision of executives was effected from January 1, 2017, after the stipulated 10-year period.

Read more at: https://www.deccanherald.com/city/t...loyees-threaten-indefinite-strike-756781.html

 

[Bleh]

Another source said that this would benefit HAL in the long run to increase efficiency to reduce costs. Eventually, the aim is to export LCAs and HAL has already expressed an interest in supplying them to Malaysia. If it wants to export, it needs to price aircraft in the same range as others.

“Why would anybody pay Rs 450 crore for Tejas if they can buy Gripens for cheaper,” the source argued.

This is good, no special treatment for indeginous stuff. Patronising is what ruined the future of INSAS.
Tejas should be bought only if it can outcompete... Harder push for export market as well.

Also, the more they outsource the manufacturing, the higher the assembled product will cost... Their partners are looking to make profits, not do charity.

Employees say while officer wages have seen a 35% rise in gross pay and 110 to 145% hike in perks, the management has offered workmen a meagre 6% growth.

With those numbers, they were expecting talks to succeed?!?!!!!!

 

[rohit b3]

By using Uttam aesa....
And using desi ew suite....Indian spj ..
Own dual luncher ..
Astra instead of derby bvr ....
If available in time..
You can use desi systems instead of imported systems to. ..cut prices..
Bdw if hal accept s lower price then it will be a boon....may help in exporting Tejas...
No one will buy Tejas at the price of su30..
Though tejas has aesa ..mm

I think thats a very good point! Im sure HAL officials are also involved in the corruption nexus which results in using more foreign parts over Indian ones. Indiginization is the only way to bring the price down.

But.....to this "No one will buy Tejas at the price of su30"

I believe the Tejas mk1A would be more advanced than the Su-30MKI as of 2022-23. The MKI has not been upgraded once since induction in 2002, and thats quite evident if you look at the cockpit,etc.
Further, we are not even sure of the MKI price as of 2019. Considering its somewhere close to a Su-35....I would assume it would be around 80mil$each all inclusive.
But then unlike Tejas, your pockets would go empty on maintenance and life cycle cost a couple of decades down the line. Not to mention low availability.

 

[dude00720]

Exactly i dont understand , 450 crore mounts to approx 64 million dollars (70rs /dollar) which is quite less than other 4.5 gen a/c . If IAF and MoD is ok spending 120 million a piece for Rafale /F16 etc so whats the problem with Tejas?
Jf17 block 3 costs around 35-40 million but we know its chinese maal.
I dont understand about the cost , is HAL overstating or IAF is reluctant to spend on domestic a/c

Price can be reduced since, a big part of the price is the initial investment. HAL is looking re-using the Su-30 MKI Nasik plant, that can lead to huge price reduction, since, Su-30 MKI is over by 2020. The same assembly line can be used for Tejas MK-1A with not too extra investment.

 

[Deathstar]

Price can be reduced since, a big part of the price is the initial investment. HAL is looking re-using the Su-30 MKI Nasik plant, that can lead to huge price reduction, since, Su-30 MKI is over by 2020. The same assembly line can be used for Tejas MK-1A with not too extra investment.

How is it possible when IAF is gonna order more Su30s as attrition and newer orders.
Anyways we should give importance to our domestic defence industry , we have been so accustomed to imports that we feel our domestic equivalents are cheap and inferior

 

[dude00720]

Exactly i dont understand , 450 crore mounts to approx 64 million dollars (70rs /dollar) which is quite less than other 4.5 gen a/c . If IAF and MoD is ok spending 120 million a piece for Rafale /F16 etc so whats the problem with Tejas?
Jf17 block 3 costs around 35-40 million but we know its chinese maal.
I dont understand about the cost , is HAL overstating or IAF is reluctant to spend on domestic a/c

IAF refuses to believe that Tejas MK-1A is 4.5

 

[dude00720]

How is it possible when IAF is gonna order more Su30s as attrition and newer orders.
Anyways we should give importance to our domestic defence industry , we have been so accustomed to imports that we feel our domestic equivalents are cheap and inferior

That article states that there are no new orders for Su-30 MKI. Hence, the move for Tejas MKI. In my view, this can be a game changer. IAF will have nothing left to say. Getting a Su-30MKI at price of gripen will be huge. HAL will be flooded with orders.

 

[Deathstar]

IAF refuses to believe that Tejas MK-1A is 4.5

Not IAF , import lobby..................

 

[IndianHawk]

Price can be reduced since, a big part of the price is the initial investment. HAL is looking re-using the Su-30 MKI Nasik plant, that can lead to huge price reduction, since, Su-30 MKI is over by 2020. The same assembly line can be used for Tejas MK-1A with not too extra investment.

They need a plant to overhaul and upgrade su30 MKI . We have 272 even of we don't order any more it will take a decade or more to upgrade su30mki to super sukhoi standard . Nasik plant will remain busy.

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[dude00720]

They need a plant to overhaul and upgrade su30 MKI . We have 272 even of we don't order any more it will take a decade or more to upgrade su30mki to super sukhoi standard . Nasik plant will remain busy.

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The article says differently for some reason.