LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Flying Dagger]

Why? This is an indian missile, with just a link to the weapons system other than radar.
Same than to integrate SPICE guided bomb already accepted.

It will be integrated when ready.

 

[MirageBlue]

And desperate chicom is posting years old stuff here

He's a false flagger. Chinese fellow pretending to be Japanese.

 

[MirageBlue]

What exactly is the point of ordering NLCA when IN rejected it as unsuitable, there is MiG-29 available and an acceptable design is in the works? Furthermore, it would push back delivery of Mk1A to IAF, I presume.

They will be ordering Naval LCA trainers, not the single seater fighters.

There will be no twin seater TEDBF for the Navy nor a twin seater Tejas Mk2 for the IAF. The Tejas trainer for the IAF and Naval LCA trainer (IN does not call the LCA the Tejas, which is the name of the IAF variant) for the IN are the only dual seat conversion trainers that will be available.

What the Naval LCA trainer will offer the IN is a dedicated trainer that will mostly be used from INS Hansa where the SBTF is located. If you can master the art of carrier landing and take-off from INS Hansa with Naval LCAs, you conserve the life of MiG-29KUBs, 2 of which have crashed already. And when possible, it will embark with the MiG-29Ks and offer a secondary point defence capability.

Plus, the LCA trainer will most likely take inputs from the LCA SPORT trainer where the Large Area Display with configurable displays will be used, to tailor the display to the MiG-29K or TEDBF.

And as an added benefit, ADA and HAL then have a way to generate tons of operational data that will flow into the TEDBF design refinement when it actually rolls out and begins flight trials.

 

[mist_consecutive]

LCA Tejas in operational deployment, Suratgarh AFS, June 2021.

@Haldilal post it.

 

[fire starter]

 

[abingdonboy]

HAL products

LCA is not a HAL product

 

[abingdonboy]

At this rate I fully expect
the mark order to be completed by 2024 earliest
mark1a between 2025 and 2031

mark2 to arrive in 2032 finishing 2040

Amca mark 1 by 2040
Amca mark 2 by 2050

AMCA production has NOTHING to do with LCA (and little to do with HAL)

MK1A by contract has to be delivered from 2024 and completed by 2028- HAL will do whatever needs to be done to make that happen. So MK2 production will not be impacted in the slightest as long as development timelines are maintained.

half of the outstanding single seat FOC birds are either sat on the flight line or in final integration. The balance can easily be delivered within the next 18 months.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

LCA is a very beautiful aircraft

 

[abingdonboy]

They will be ordering Naval LCA trainers, not the single seater fighters.

There will be no twin seater TEDBF for the Navy nor a twin seater Tejas Mk2 for the IAF. The Tejas trainer for the IAF and Naval LCA trainer (IN does not call the LCA the Tejas, which is the name of the IAF variant) for the IN are the only dual seat conversion trainers that will be available.

What the Naval LCA trainer will offer the IN is a dedicated trainer that will mostly be used from INS Hansa where the SBTF is located. If you can master the art of carrier landing and take-off from INS Hansa with Naval LCAs, you conserve the life of MiG-29KUBs, 2 of which have crashed already. And when possible, it will embark with the MiG-29Ks and offer a secondary point defence capability.

Plus, the LCA trainer will most likely take inputs from the LCA SPORT trainer where the Large Area Display with configurable displays will be used, to tailor the display to the MiG-29K or TEDBF.

And as an added benefit, ADA and HAL then have a way to generate tons of operational data that will flow into the TEDBF design refinement when it actually rolls out and begins flight trials.

I have heard about the TEDBF not having a 2 seat version but is it confirmed there won’t be one for LCA MK.2? That seems entirely pointless

There was meant to be a 2 seat Rafale-M (BM) that was culled because of budgetary constraints but otherwise it makes sense to have a 2 seat version where possible not just for training/OCU roles but for WSO roles and especially as HAL is pushing the CATS division and the ‘mothership’ idea.

 

[Spitfire9]

MK1A by contract has to be delivered from 2024 and completed by 2028- HAL will do whatever needs to be done to make that happen. So MK2 production will not be impacted in the slightest as long as development timelines are maintained.

half of the outstanding single seat FOC birds are either sat on the flight line or in final integration. The balance can easily be delivered within the next 18 months.

FOC - yes, would be astonishing if they were not all delivered in next 18 months.
Mk1A - why are you so confident HAL will deliver all of these on time because that is in the contract? Weren't there delivery deadlines in the contracts for Mk1 IOC and FOC?

The proposal for 18 NLCA mentioned elsewhere - long lead items need 18? months so production would not start before 2024/2025. HAL would need to build 91 Mk1A and NLCA between 2024/2025 and 2028, assuming the 10 Tejas trainers were built by 2024. What is the likelihood of all this getting done and not holding MWF up?

 

[abingdonboy]

FOC - yes, would be astonishing if they were not all delivered in next 18 months.
Mk1A - why are you so confident HAL will deliver all of these on time because that is in the contract? Weren't there delivery deadlines in the contracts for Mk1 IOC and FOC?

The proposal for 18 NLCA mentioned elsewhere - long lead items need 18? months so production would not start before 2024/2025. HAL would need to build 91 Mk1A and NLCA between 2024/2025 and 2028, assuming the 10 Tejas trainers were built by 2024. What is the likelihood of all this getting done and not holding MWF up?

HAL has never had a series order of this scale before, they have ample time to get all their ducks in a row, place orders, assign resources etc and the contract has time bound penalties also. All the infra HAL have added around LCA division for the last 3 years has been with the MK1A order in mind. As long as the development timelines are met they’ll deliver on the production side no question

No separate NLCA exists but any additional orders of LCA over and above the 83 MK1A/2 seat MK1 will see HAL expand annual production to cater to them, they won’t cut into the IAF orders.

 

[Spitfire9]

HAL has never had a series order of this scale before, they have ample time to get all their ducks in a row, place orders, assign resources etc and the contract has time bound penalties also. All the infra HAL have added around LCA division for the last 3 years has been with the MK1A order in mind. As long as the development timelines are met they’ll deliver on the production side no question

No separate NLCA exists but any additional orders of LCA over and above the 83 MK1A/2 seat MK1 will see HAL expand annual production to cater to them, they won’t cut into the IAF orders.

Thanks for that info. From what you say, one can have far more confidence than ever before in HAL building frames at the rate scheduled.

I note the following reservation, though:

Former IAF officer Air Vice Marshal Manmohan Bahadur (Retd), now the additional director general of the Centre for Air Power Studies (CAPS), a leading think-tank on defence affairs, said it is important that HAL delivers because the future of the IAF’s squadron strength depends on it.

“These are ambitious timelines and HAL has to really turn a new leaf with respect to work culture and ethos to meet the timeline.

Contract signed for 83 LCA Tejas fighters, all eyes now on HAL delivery schedule

IAF is also focusing on Mk 2 version of Tejas and 5th generation AMCA fighter, which HAL is developing and has set ambitious timelines for.

theprint.in

Has HAL turned over a new leaf?

Also, any idea if the various new radar, EWF, sensor etc systems are almost ready to go? Nothing there that is late and could hold up testing/production?

 

[MirageBlue]

LCA is not a HAL product

Well it is partly. They have designed quite a few parts and work packages. And they're the overall integrator and responsible for final assembly, check out and flight testing.

While Tejas is an ADA design, they don't build any part of it. They simply designed it the overall product along with quite a bit of it's software and so on.

 

[MirageBlue]

I have heard about the TEDBF not having a 2 seat version but is it confirmed there won’t be one for LCA MK.2? That seems entirely pointless

There was meant to be a 2 seat Rafale-M (BM) that was culled because of budgetary constraints but otherwise it makes sense to have a 2 seat version where possible not just for training/OCU roles but for WSO roles and especially as HAL is pushing the CATS division and the ‘mothership’ idea.

Yup, confirmed by Grp Cpt HV Thakur. At least as of now there is no plan to build one.

 

[MirageBlue]

What a lot of people don't realise the sheer number of different variants that have emerged from the LCA program..

1- LCA Mk1 IAF single seater
2- LCA Mk1 IAF twin seater
3- Naval LCA Mk1 twin seater derived from IAF twin seater
4- Naval LCA Mk1 single seater derived from Naval LCA Mk1 twin seater

Now what this did is to divide scarce engineering and flight testing resources into testing several variants. I believe the rationale is to focus on the single seaters and let the LCA Mk1 IAF twin seater be developed into LCA LIFT or SPORT for training and conversion for both Mk1, Mk1A and Mk2.

Large Area Displays with configurable displays and possibly even FCS that can be configured prior to flight would allow for most of the Mk2 and TEDBF flight and cockpit display characteristics to be accurately simulated.

Given that there is a TEDBF and AMCA program concurrently on-going I think it's a good decision.

 

[Bleh]

HAL has never had a series order of this scale before,

Dude, they built 260 MKIs & delivery upto 40 Mig-21s each year back in 80s... I know they're not exactly comparable, but your above statement is not correct.

 

[abingdonboy]

Thanks for that info. From what you say, one can have far more confidence than ever before in HAL building frames at the rate scheduled.

I note the following reservation, though:

Contract signed for 83 LCA Tejas fighters, all eyes now on HAL delivery schedule

IAF is also focusing on Mk 2 version of Tejas and 5th generation AMCA fighter, which HAL is developing and has set ambitious timelines for.

theprint.in

Has HAL turned over a new leaf?

Also, any idea if the various new radar, EWF, sensor etc systems are almost ready to go? Nothing there that is late and could hold up testing/production?

Forgive me if I don’t take an assessment from a servile IAF officer (and a retired one at that) too seriously. God knows what axe he has to grind with HAL

‘Turning over a new leaf’ is such a reductive and simplistic statement so no surprise it comes from this kind of hit piece. The industrial activities that HAL has been involved in for the best part of half a decade now are all aimed at hitting the ground running for the eventual MK1A order, the delivery schedule is set in stone, they’ll do whatever the contract says- no more, no less.

on the MK1A package

AESAR and SPJ are being tested on the LCA LSP airframes as we speak, they are also looking to use a few of the FOC airframes for certain MK1A tech ahead of full certification in 2022.

Theoretically something could come along to detail the final certification effort and thereby impact MK1A production but the approach HAL has taken has de-risked the 83 MK1A order quite a bit- the AESAR EL/M-2052 is a mature product that they are already comfortable with (they have fitted it on the IAF’s Jags for the DARIN 3 upgrade) similarly the SPJ is an off the shelf proven system. If they had gone for the UTTAM AEASAR from the first airframe there would’ve been a question mark on if UTTAM could be certified and put into production in time but HAL has committed to the first 20 MK1A coming with the EL/M-2052 and UTTAM from the 21st airframe so there’s scope here to build in contingencies should UTTAM be delayed.

1st MK1A is to be delivered in early 2024, metal cutting for those airframes will be in mid-2023 but worst case scenario they can commence metal cutting without the final MK1A configuration being certified as there’s not a huge amount of structural differences between MK1 and MK1A so they can probably get the airframes to 85-90% complete (late 2023) without having the full approval

The F404 engines are on order

the radars are being tested

the internal LRU changes have been set in stone for a while now

The biggest risk this entire process faces is in fact external- if there’s another dangerous COVID variant that forces the entire productive part of the Indian economy to shut down again for months that will derail everything and push back all effort by 6-12 months easily.

 

[abingdonboy]

Well it is partly. They have designed quite a few parts and work packages. And they're the overall integrator and responsible for final assembly, check out and flight testing.

While Tejas is an ADA design, they don't build any part of it. They simply designed it the overall product along with quite a bit of it's software and so on.

LCA is an ADA product, they own the IP for it (hence why HAL is paying ADA a royalty for the MK1A deal), ADA outsourced production and certain development activities to them.

similarly LCA MK.2, TEDBF and AMCA are all ADA projects with varying degrees of HAL involvement but limited in all cases. I imagine AMCA will only see tangential involvement of HAL.

 

[abingdonboy]

Dude, they built 260 MKIs & delivery upto 40 Mig-21s each year back in 80s... I know they're not exactly comparable, but your above statement is not correct.

Licence assembly (the majority of which was purely assembling SKD/CKD) with OEM handholding is entirely different to what they are having to do with LCA so I don’t count that in the same category.

Yup, confirmed by Grp Cpt HV Thakur. At least as of now there is no plan to build one.

Sub-optimal to say the least

This emphases the need for an NLCA LIFT squadron then.

 

[abingdonboy]

Somewhat related

The flying test bed for DRDO’s UTTAM AESAR