LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Lancer]

IMO IAF has a whole lot of issues with the Su-57 design and avionics. Induction of a limited number of Su-57s would again add to our plane zoo. Not worth it if AMCA is the plan.

Plane zoo is about to get much much smaller in the coming decades. MiG-21's will be gone, eventually Jaguars, Mirages & MiG-29's will all be gone too.

Then it's just LCA family (incl ORCA, if it happens), Rafale, Su-30 MKI, and AMCA (+ any Su-57's). Not too bad.

Re: issues with Su-57. It's certainly the best designed stealth fighter after F-22 & F-35; and avionics - you can customize the way we've done in the past.

 

[Trololo]

Plane zoo is about to get much much smaller in the coming decades. MiG-21's will be gone, eventually Jaguars, Mirages & MiG-29's will all be gone too.

Then it's just LCA family (incl ORCA, if it happens), Rafale, Su-30 MKI, and AMCA (+ any Su-57's). Not too bad.

Re: issues with Su-57. It's certainly the best designed stealth fighter after F-22 & F-35; and avionics - you can customize the way we've done in the past.

If IAF is happy with AMCA then it might press for more numbers. Also I have a feeling that towards the middle of the decade India will either team up for the Tempest or the FCAS. But I don't see the Su-57 making it to the IAF. The IAF leadership seems to have made up to move to western/ western influenced platforms.

 

[Lancer]

If IAF is happy with AMCA then it might press for more numbers. Also I have a feeling that towards the middle of the decade India will either team up for the Tempest or the FCAS. But I don't see the Su-57 making it to the IAF. The IAF leadership seems to have made up to move to western/ western influenced platforms.

Interesting possibilities.

Although by that time, AMCA would probably be a mature program with existing platforms. A big part of Su-57 appeal, for me, is that it will be available sooner - and probably be cheaper than a Western stealth fighter.

 

[Trololo]

Interesting possibilities.

Although by that time, AMCA would probably be a mature program with existing platforms. A big part of Su-57 appeal, for me, is that it will be available sooner - and probably be cheaper than a Western stealth fighter.

India will not "buy" a western stealth fighter. IAF has numerous issues with Su-57 design and since its now set in stone any mods cannot be done without essentially making a new bird at a huge cost. That opportunity was lost due to the FGFA fiasco.

Events after Galwan have cemented in the Indian policy makers' minds that China is our principal rival. Chinese also probably know most Russian systems well since they either use them or have stolen their tech. That may prove to be a problem for next generation Russian platforms in Indian service. But it is well known that the Chinese fear Western weapons.

And with the whole "Aatmanirbharta" plan in progress, I doubt if the Su-57 will be imported. My gut feeling again is that while 5th and 5.5th gen platforms are being developed in the shape of the AMCA, towards the middle of the decade or even earlier India will opt for either Tempest or FCAS. I feel it will be the FCAS if Safran is the partner for the 110Kn class AMCA engine. Or Tempest if Rolls Royce.

Only possible scenario of Su-57 import is if Pak gets FC-31 in operational status before the end of the decade and AMCA is hopelessly delayed. In such a scenario, we also cannot rule out F-35 purchase if India decides to take things further with the US and induct frontline platforms from them. Pretty sure IAF has taken these scenarios into consideration.

 

[Dessert Storm]

India will not "buy" a western stealth fighter. IAF has numerous issues with Su-57 design and since its now set in stone any mods cannot be done without essentially making a new bird at a huge cost. That opportunity was lost due to the FGFA fiasco.

Events after Galwan have cemented in the Indian policy makers' minds that China is our principal rival. Chinese also probably know most Russian systems well since they either use them or have stolen their tech. That may prove to be a problem for next generation Russian platforms in Indian service. But it is well known that the Chinese fear Western weapons.

And with the whole "Aatmanirbharta" plan in progress, I doubt if the Su-57 will be imported. My gut feeling again is that while 5th and 5.5th gen platforms are being developed in the shape of the AMCA, towards the middle of the decade or even earlier India will opt for either Tempest or FCAS. I feel it will be the FCAS if Safran is the partner for the 110Kn class AMCA engine. Or Tempest if Rolls Royce.

Only possible scenario of Su-57 import is if Pak gets FC-31 in operational status before the end of the decade and AMCA is hopelessly delayed. In such a scenario, we also cannot rule out F-35 purchase if India decides to take things further with the US and induct frontline platforms from them. Pretty sure IAF has taken these scenarios into consideration.

Basically @Lancer is for SU 57 if there are any slippages in the AMCA timelines.
I myself believe that 6th Gen should be a collaborative effort with the Europeans. However, given that it would be seen as a direct competition by the Americans, India should choose the partner wisely i.e. the one less likely to back off under American pressure.
The purchase of SU 57 should also be looked at from a different angle. In my view, India should get some sort of stake in the SU 57 program for the following reasons:
(1) Having stake in Russia's top platform would make it less attractive for the Chinese.
(2) By late 20s to mid 30s India can start creating reverse dependencies vis-a-vis the Russians. Indian money would be needed for high end research by the Russians. Chinese cannot be allowed to have a free run on the Russians.

 

[Trololo]

Basically @Lancer is for SU 57 if there are any slippages in the AMCA timelines.
I myself believe that 6th Gen should be a collaborative effort with the Europeans. However, given that it would be seen as a direct competition by the Americans, India should choose the partner wisely i.e. the one less likely to back off under American pressure.
The purchase of SU 57 should also be looked at from a different angle. In my view, India should get some sort of stake in the SU 57 program for the following reasons:
(1) Having stake in Russia's top platform would make it less attractive for the Chinese.
(2) By late 20s to mid 30s India can start creating reverse dependencies vis-a-vis the Russians. Indian money would be needed for high end research by the Russians. Chinese cannot be allowed to have a free run on the Russians.

The US has a major rival in China. Trying to pressurise the Europeans to not partner with India on a 6th gen aircraft will only cause the US to lose an important partner.

The US will not sell any 6th gen planes anytime soon. Even if they do, it will be extremely watered down and IAF will not accept something like this.

FCAS' prime contractor is Dassault, and it seems like the bulk of the aircraft will be developed by the French. Advantage is that cost sharing can be divided amongst 4 nations (France, Germany, Spain, India)

Tempest prime contractor is BaE systems, but with India in the picture there's more of the pie to be had. Plus less bureaucracy and whims of the other partners.

Regardless, both aircraft should be top class.

"Having stake in Russia's top platform would make it less attractive for the Chinese.": Nope. The Russians still sold them the Su-30 in MKK form and now the Su-35. The Russian MIC is deeply dependent on Chinese money as of now.

"By late 20s to mid 30s India can start creating reverse dependencies vis-a-vis the Russians. Indian money would be needed for high end research by the Russians. Chinese cannot be allowed to have a free run on the Russians.": But the Chinese will have their slot booked. Won't be easy to dislodge them unless they try to take over the Russian Far East. Even if we invest in future Russian programs, there is no guarantee that they will not sell out to the Chinese.

 

[Dessert Storm]

The US has a major rival in China. Trying to pressurise the Europeans to not partner with India on a 6th gen aircraft will only cause the US to lose an important partner.

My point was not what you mentioned.
The US sees the European effort at 6th Gen as a direct competitor to itself, so India should choose the partner which is less likely to back out if the 6th Gen project altogether. You are right Franco-German project is less likely to back out.

The US will not sell any 6th gen planes anytime soon. Even if they do, it will be extremely watered down and IAF will not accept something like this.

You never know. They can start involving other countries like the JSF project. If and when it's offered to India and what version is a long shot. Won't react to that.

Tempest prime contractor is BaE systems, but with India in the picture there's more of the pie to be had. Plus less bureaucracy and whims of the other partners.

Absolutely. But as mentioned previously, Brits are more likely to back out of the project altogether, in case of American pressure. Otherwise, a JV with RR for engines and JV for Tempest is a great option.

"Having stake in Russia's top platform would make it less attractive for the Chinese.": Nope. The Russians still sold them the Su-30 in MKK form and now the Su-35. The Russian MIC is deeply dependent on Chinese money as of now.

"By late 20s to mid 30s India can start creating reverse dependencies vis-a-vis the Russians. Indian money would be needed for high end research by the Russians. Chinese cannot be allowed to have a free run on the Russians.": But the Chinese will have their slot booked. Won't be easy to dislodge them unless they try to take over the Russian Far East. Even if we invest in future Russian programs, there is no guarantee that they will not sell out to the Chinese.

Agreed, that the Chinese have slots with Russians, dosen't mean we quit on investing in 'influencers'. There are never any guarantees as far as diplomacy and strategy is concerned. Chinese weren't always that strong. They dislodged somebody and somebody would dislodge them. It's never easy. Chinese have influence all over the world, dosen't mean that we don't invest in $6 billion refinery in Myanmar or stop dealing with African Nations.

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

Plane zoo is about to get much much smaller in the coming decades. MiG-21's will be gone, eventually Jaguars, Mirages & MiG-29's will all be gone too.

Then it's just LCA family (incl ORCA, if it happens), Rafale, Su-30 MKI, and AMCA (+ any Su-57's). Not too bad.

Re: issues with Su-57. It's certainly the best designed stealth fighter after F-22 & F-35; and avionics - you can customize the way we've done in the past.

One of the things I hate about Indian airforce is lack of simple chain of aircraft and making of a zoo.it is inherently better to have small no of types unless you regularly choose to use specialized aircraft or if your mic is so developed that you end up propping up your industry.i hope the future iaf and naval airarm is posed to contain aircraft of few types for roles optimized for them and most of them being of highly Indeginous content.

 

[Bleh]

 

[vishnugupt]

Tejas fans to Dalaals/Pimps

 

[Lancer]

India will not "buy" a western stealth fighter. IAF has numerous issues with Su-57 design and since its now set in stone any mods cannot be done without essentially making a new bird at a huge cost. That opportunity was lost due to the FGFA fiasco.

Events after Galwan have cemented in the Indian policy makers' minds that China is our principal rival. Chinese also probably know most Russian systems well since they either use them or have stolen their tech. That may prove to be a problem for next generation Russian platforms in Indian service. But it is well known that the Chinese fear Western weapons.

And with the whole "Aatmanirbharta" plan in progress, I doubt if the Su-57 will be imported. My gut feeling again is that while 5th and 5.5th gen platforms are being developed in the shape of the AMCA, towards the middle of the decade or even earlier India will opt for either Tempest or FCAS. I feel it will be the FCAS if Safran is the partner for the 110Kn class AMCA engine. Or Tempest if Rolls Royce.

Only possible scenario of Su-57 import is if Pak gets FC-31 in operational status before the end of the decade and AMCA is hopelessly delayed. In such a scenario, we also cannot rule out F-35 purchase if India decides to take things further with the US and induct frontline platforms from them. Pretty sure IAF has taken these scenarios into consideration.

Except the F-35 is nothing compared to the F-22 (which isn't for sale) in the realm of dogfighting/air superiority. And given India's track record + the fact that it's never tried to produce a fighter this advanced, there are bound to be delays and issues.

If Russian hardware being compromised/China having similar products was that big an issue - our AF strategy wouldn't largely center on the S400 and Flanker right now. The point is, China is already flying a so called "stealth" fighter right now, and it'll eventually find its way to Pak too - this is time sensitive.

Last of all, why can't we do with the Su-57 what we did with the MKI's in terms of working with 3rd parties on various additions/customizations?

 

[Lancer]

Basically @Lancer is for SU 57 if there are any slippages in the AMCA timelines.
I myself believe that 6th Gen should be a collaborative effort with the Europeans. However, given that it would be seen as a direct competition by the Americans, India should choose the partner wisely i.e. the one less likely to back off under American pressure.
The purchase of SU 57 should also be looked at from a different angle. In my view, India should get some sort of stake in the SU 57 program for the following reasons:
(1) Having stake in Russia's top platform would make it less attractive for the Chinese.
(2) By late 20s to mid 30s India can start creating reverse dependencies vis-a-vis the Russians. Indian money would be needed for high end research by the Russians. Chinese cannot be allowed to have a free run on the Russians.

Not even slippages, I'm for Su-57's right now.

We need more numbers, China's already flying a self proclaimed stealth fighter, our AF will have to learn to operate and maintain stealth fighters before the AMCA's arrive, and having a stealth fighter might provide benefits in the process of fine-tuning/producing AMCA's.

And you make a good point about making the Russians dependent (what the Chinese did in 90s) - say what you want, but after everything, and even if the Russians become beggars - their aerospace + defense production industry and experience is far greater than India's, while India's economy is expected to grow in leaps and bounds. Put the money to good use and acquire/sponsor expertise. The benefits will be multifold.

How do you think China moved towards a defense industry and self sufficiency?

 

[shankyz]

 

[patriots]

So Tejas was seen with a couple of r73
2 bombs and 2 1200 ltr drop tank
I'm airforce day static display

 

[vishnugupt]

I think IAF needs to upgrade their Cameras urgently than their jets. No clear video and missed Tejas maneuver most of the time.

Tejas landing was the elegantly excellent and very very smooth touchdown

 

[HawkisRight]

I think IAF needs to upgrade their Cameras urgently than their jets. No clear video and missed Tejas maneuver most of the time.

Tejas landing was the elegantly excellent and very very smooth touchdown

Also that cringe commentary..

 

[aerokan]

For you maybe(?)... Most others have known that 24-29 timeline.

Maybe i don't know others timelines since i am still rooting for 2020 signing and 2023-27 delivery in 5+8+8 per year.

if we go by 24-29 timeline.. we may as well forget ORCA and LCA exports considering we start MK2 production after MK1A.

 

[patriots]

 

[Dessert Storm]

 

[Bleh]

The narration is so chessy that it went straight to my heart & deposited as fat in my coronary artery.

But the display of Rafale isn't any better... IAF is shut at doing flashy moves.