LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Shashank Nayak]

Tejas FOC-SP-22 completes its first flight – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[WolfPack86]

Tejas FOC-SP-22 completes its first flight
An official from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has confirmed that the first flight of the second Tejas Final Operational Clearance (FOC) block—SP-22 was successfully carried out on 24-September of this month after resumption of flight activities that were halted for a while after completion of the first FOC SP-21 back in March this year. -SP-22 was piloted by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Chief Test Flying (Fixed Wing) KA Muthana (retired) for approx 43 minutes.


A six-month lull due to pandemic and shutdown of the supply chain was used to get all FOC and IOC-II jets updated with software to meet the operational requirements of the Indian Air Force (IAF). SP-23 has completed low- and high-speed taxi trials and will be ready for its first flight test by end of this month.


HAL plans to complete the first flights of SP-24, SP-25, SP-26 by March 2021. IAF will induct 20 Tejas FOC jets with a break-up of 16 fighters and 4 twin-seater trainers. IAF already has 16 Tejas in its 45 Squadron (Flying Daggers) at Sulur Air Force Station in Tamil Nadu. first Trainer aircraft will start coming before the end of 2021.

Tejas FOC-SP-22 completes its first flight – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[Dessert Storm]

4.5 gen is a high end fighter nobody atleast till now has a proper 5th gen fighter in our neighborhood.

I was suggesting we mass produce tejas to shore up numbers.

Rafale wont be coming we can dream all we want but max to max we get an other 36 but nothing more.

The MMRCA contract is supposed to take another 3 years its just a joke at this point.

We should go for tejas and hopefully we get AMCA somewhere in the future as orca has already been rejected.

MMRCA is dead. No question about it.

I don't think 4.5 is high end, it's just that our neighbors are poor tech-wise.

It won't be just 36 Rafales, it would be more fighters (can't say which one). Once u have indigenous programs going, concentrate on getting ToT from these fly-away deals.

I agree to the indigenous fighters. Therefore, starting Tejas FOC, going on to Tejas Mk1A, MWF, TEDBF, AMCA.

I repeat. Engine tech is critical.

 

[shade]

No funds simply no funds MMRCA is more of a see we are doing something to kuch mat bolo.

IAF has more pressing issues refuellers AWACS transport jets tejas mk1a tejas mk2 AMCA funding drones various air defence systems have pending payments repair of runways and modernization of airbases and what not.

We are in no position to throw another 20 billion on Rafale.

AMCA is a meme, by the time it's ready everyone else will have 7th gen Skynet powered fighters that shoot lasers .
Ek Tejas ka order sign karne me khujli hoti hai aur chale AMCA banane.
The import lobby needs to be purged, and so do the incompetents kamchors in DRDO and HAL.
The back and forth between these two groups means that our procurements take forever.

 

[Synergy]

AMCA is a meme, by the time it's ready everyone else will have 7th gen Skynet powered fighters that shoot lasers .
Ek Tejas ka order sign karne me khujli hoti hai aur chale AMCA banane.
The import lobby needs to be purged, and so do the incompetents kamchors in DRDO and HAL.
The back and forth between these two groups means that our procurements take forever.

sorry but I think it's a very wrong notion.

design most probably ready, many subsystems are at an advanced stage (probably few are ready), engine for prototypes and (probably) first trench is selected. engine for 2nd trench will be ready in the meantime.

and if any of Safran or RR jv can ready an engine with more than 100/125kN thrust, then it shouldn't have any problem for shooting laser or that green $hit from alien movies provided we will get that from Aliens or will invent those in the meantime.

and it's gonna be 5.5, not only 5.

order for 83 Tejas mk1a will be finalized in this year. still it's stuck due to this standoff and we don't know how it will pan out.


P.S. : I'm not sure what's happening with engines. anybody please shed some light on it. who will make engine for amca? as I'm finding reports of 2jvs, one with Safran and another with RR.

 

[Dessert Storm]

sorry but I think it's a very wrong notion.

design most probably ready, many subsystems are at an advanced stage (probably few are ready), engine for prototypes and (probably) first trench is selected. engine for 2nd trench will be ready in the meantime.

and if any of Safran or RR jv can ready an engine with more than 100/125kN thrust, then it shouldn't have any problem for shooting laser or that green $hit from alien movies provided we will get that from Aliens or will invent those in the meantime.

and it's gonna be 5.5, not only 5.

order for 83 Tejas mk1a will be finalized in this year. still it's stuck due to this standoff and we don't know how it will pan out.


P.S. : I'm not sure what's happening with engines. anybody please shed some light on it. who will make engine for amca? as I'm finding reports of 2jvs, one with Safran and another with RR.

To start with, 'the new Safran offer is not for the Kaveri engine'. The offers are:-
(A)Safran:
Offer is to make a 110kn class engine for AMCA with full IP to India. The points to be noted here are-
1. Safran does not have any experience in developing a "variable cycle engine".
2. Given 1. above, and no mention of "variable cycle engine" in their statement, it's as good as GE414EPE offered for AMCA Mk1.
3. Earliest delivery of engine would be 2027.
4. Planned prototype of AMCA is by 2025.
5. Given 4. above and given the fact that an aircraft is designed around the engine, the Safran engine won't be around in time for Mk1 and won't be used in MK2.
6. When testing a fighter prototype, you always go with a tried and tested engine not a new one. Same for the engine (you need twin engine mature platform).
7. Safran 110kn may therefore be useful if it's designed according to dimensions of GE 414 so that it may be used in MWF or TEDBF at the time of first engine change.
8. GE would definitely make a counter offer of MII to protect its market.
9. Therefore, it's not a very attractive offer, unless India buys a lot of Rafales and they are up-engined in future. Plus we do the same for MWF and TEDBF.

(B) RR:
(1) Has some experience in developing Variable Cycle Engines. So that's a headstart.
2. Clearly stated that IP would reside with India. Same as Safran.
3. The engine would be delivered around 2027 so would be used in AMCA Mk2 with enough time for testing.
4. Opens up opportunities of collaboration for Tempest program cuz the engine there would most probably be designed by RR. If the Tempest engine dimensions are similar, we should be game then.

I would go with RR for the engine for AMCA and develop Kaveri with French (offsets for 36+36/54) help with full IP for a GE 404 (85kn) class. Once this engine is done, then GE 414 (95kn) class would be a natural progression.

 

[Synergy]

To start with, 'the new Safran offer is not for the Kaveri engine'. The offers are:-
(A)Safran:
Offer is to make a 110kn class engine for AMCA with full IP to India. The points to be noted here are-
1. Safran does not have any experience in developing a "variable cycle engine".
2. Given 1. above, and no mention of "variable cycle engine" in their statement, it's as good as GE414EPE offered for AMCA Mk1.
3. Earliest delivery of engine would be 2027.
4. Planned prototype of AMCA is by 2025.
5. Given 4. above and given the fact that an aircraft is designed around the engine, the Safran engine won't be around in time for Mk1 and won't be used in MK2.
6. When testing a fighter prototype, you always go with a tried and tested engine not a new one. Same for the engine (you need twin engine mature platform).
7. Safran 110kn may therefore be useful if it's designed according to dimensions of GE 414 so that it may be used in MWF or TEDBF at the time of first engine change.
8. GE would definitely make a counter offer of MII to protect its market.
9. Therefore, it's not a very attractive offer, unless India buys a lot of Rafales and they are up-engined in future. Plus we do the same for MWF and TEDBF.

(B) RR:
(1) Has some experience in developing Variable Cycle Engines. So that's a headstart.
2. Clearly stated that IP would reside with India. Same as Safran.
3. The engine would be delivered around 2027 so would be used in AMCA Mk2 with enough time for testing.
4. Opens up opportunities of collaboration for Tempest program cuz the engine there would most probably be designed by RR. If the Tempest engine dimensions are similar, we should be game then.

I would go with RR for the engine for AMCA and develop Kaveri with French (offsets for 36+36/54) help with full IP for a GE 404 (85kn) class. Once this engine is done, then GE 414 (95kn) class would be a natural progression.

many reports are suggesting we are going for two jvs. so if RR one for AMCA then Safran one for? other aircrafts like mwf, tedbf etc? shouldn't it be better if we've gone for any of them?

 

[Dessert Storm]

many reports are suggesting we are going for two jvs. so if RR one for AMCA then Safran one for? other aircrafts like mwf, tedbf etc? shouldn't it be better if we've gone for any of them?

Those are reports. I gave my understanding of the offers and to summarise, I said:
1. Reject Safran offer for AMCA engine.
2. Accept RR offer for AMCA engine.
3. Ask Safran for development of Kaveri with Rafale offsets.

 

[Trololo]

My 2 cents:

1> Partner with RR for AMCA engines with full IP ownership for a 5G engine.
2> Partner with Safran for an F414 class engine with full IP ownership for the MWF/ TEDBF/ ORCA from which a broad family of commercial engines for aircraft like C-17s, A330, 787 etc can be made.
3> Invest big time in hot section metallurgy using industry + academia + government consortium model.
4> Take learnings from points 2 and 3 and existing Kaveri design by GTRE to make engines for drones, marine gas turbines, and regional jets.
5> Impart learnings from all of the above to Indian pvt cos, and MSMEs to create Indian OEMs for aircraft engines. 2-3 OEMs making turboprop and turbofan engines for all kinds of applications.

 

[The Maverick]

we,are about to get our arses smacked by China.
Pakistan is openly fighting a asymmetrical war with us for two decades
we are flying 200 junk mig21 and jaguar fighters which are utterly useless even against Paki f16 and thunders never mind 90
percent of plaaf.
We have a near combat ready indengious platform with area radar option and weapons from.israel and a proven western engine . yet for one year we sit on a area scratching our balls thinking should we sign the deal for a paltry 83 fighters costing 5 billion dollars
we call ourselves a regional power we are indecisive incompetent and frankly meek and weak this us why China is annexing our land and why a basket case beggar nation like Pakistan needles us constantly

 

[Bleh]

which are utterly useless even against Paki f16 and thunders never mind 90 percent of plaaf.

Huh?.. Ok.

 

[johnq]

PLAAF sucks.

 

[fire starter]

we,are about to get our arses smacked by China.
Pakistan is openly fighting a asymmetrical war with us for two decades
we are flying 200 junk mig21 and jaguar fighters which are utterly useless even against Paki f16 and thunders never mind 90
percent of plaaf.
We have a near combat ready indengious platform with area radar option and weapons from.israel and a proven western engine . yet for one year we sit on a area scratching our balls thinking should we sign the deal for a paltry 83 fighters costing 5 billion dollars
we call ourselves a regional power we are indecisive incompetent and frankly meek and weak this us why China is annexing our land and why a basket case beggar nation like Pakistan needles us constantly

LMAO from where such meltdown experts come. You are having a continuous habit of moaning.

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

we,are about to get our arses smacked by China.
Pakistan is openly fighting a asymmetrical war with us for two decades
we are flying 200 junk mig21 and jaguar fighters which are utterly useless even against Paki f16 and thunders never mind 90
percent of plaaf.
We have a near combat ready indengious platform with area radar option and weapons from.israel and a proven western engine . yet for one year we sit on a area scratching our balls thinking should we sign the deal for a paltry 83 fighters costing 5 billion dollars
we call ourselves a regional power we are indecisive incompetent and frankly meek and weak this us why China is annexing our land and why a basket case beggar nation like Pakistan needles us constantly

China also has around 400 junk aircrafts , J7 (copy of mig21) is one of them still in service with PLAAF
Even USAF is flying F16 for last 46 years
First flight of F16 was in 1974

 

[Chanakya 002]

LMAO from where such meltdown experts come. You are having a continuous habit of moaning.

ise moaning nahi kahate, it is randi rona

 

[kaivan]

JF-17 production rate is highly exaggerated by ISI bots which are 16 or 25 per annum as claimed in media

Since 2007, the following blocks were produced:

JF-17A Block 1 (50 delivered)
JF-17A Block 2 (62 delivered)
JF-17B Block 2 (12 delivered, 14 on order)

With Chinese aviation industrial capacity and so-called Pakistan aviation industrial capacity(PUN), the production since 13 years is 124 aircraft ( 3 lost due to accidents)

The rate is 124/13 = 9.5 or we can say 9-10 aircraft per annum.

Also, please remember the
1. Design and R&D is by Russian

2. Engine and Main gun Gsh-23 is: Russian

3. Ejection seat: British

4. RWR: American

5. Also, some more Turkish and European equipment's

Only fools can believe that the production rate is 16 or 25 per annum.

Source:

Pakistan Air Force CAS Outlines Next Procurement Steps

List of active Pakistan Air Force aircraft - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Flying Dagger]

Those are reports. I gave my understanding of the offers and to summarise, I said:
1. Reject Safran offer for AMCA engine.
2. Accept RR offer for AMCA engine.
3. Ask Safran for development of Kaveri with Rafale offsets.

I hope we get atleast one engine on time.. this jv thing is going on since 90s and specially after 2006-8 but not signed yet.

In my opinion IAF should ask for 116 -119 kn GE f414 engine from the beginning for Tejas and AMCA both and pay for it.

If GTRE/DRDO can get an engine on time good opt for it else continue with GE 414.

 

[Dessert Storm]

I hope we get atleast one engine on time.. this jv thing is going on since 90s and specially after 2006-8 but not signed yet.

In my opinion IAF should ask for 116 -119 kn GE f414 engine from the beginning for Tejas and AMCA both and pay for it.

If GTRE/DRDO can get an engine on time good opt for it else continue with GE 414.

Your ideas make a lot of sense. But since it was a discussion on 'what can be?', I was hoping for the best. It should also be noted that India has gained a lot of heft since 90's, so maybe.....

 

[Neil]

That is one stunning capture.

 

[kaivan]

Finally SAAW cleared
Defence Acquisition Council headed by Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh accords approval for various arms and equipment worth Rs. 2,290 crore
Posted On: 28 SEP 2020 4:25PM by PIB Delhi

The Defence Acquisition Council meeting held under the Chairmanship of Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath today approved proposals for Capital acquisitions of various equipment required by the Indian Armed Forces at an approximate cost of Rs 2,290 crore. These include procurement from Domestic Industry as well as Foreign vendors.

Under the Buy Indian (IDDM) category, the DAC approved procurement of Static HF Tans-receiver sets and Smart Anti Airfield Weapon (SAAW). The HF radio sets will enable seamless communication for the field units of Army and Air Force and are being procured at an approx. cost of Rs. 540 crore. The Smart Anti Airfield Weapon being procured at an approx. cost of Rs. 970 crore will add to the fire power of Navy and Airforce.

Further, to equip the Frontline Troops of the Army the DAC also accorded approval for procurement of SIG SAUER Assault Rifles at a cost of approx. Rs.780 crore.



Source:

Defence Acquisition Council headed by Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh accords approval for various arms and equipment worth Rs. 2,290 crore

The Defence Acquisition Council meeting held under the Chairmanship of Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath to

pib.gov.in