LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

scatterStorm

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Only absolute superiority that it has over both Tejas & F-16 is its massively higher BVR hardpoint capacity of 6 BVRs against 2 of Tejas, 4 of F-16 with 3 drop-tanks. Tejas may carry 4 BVRs but with only 1 tank.

Other than that Mirage-2000 T/W is lower by 0.3 & STR is lower by 2-3°/sec than FOC Tejas, pilots say the flight controls are better in the latter too. Its RCS is more than 3 times too & Mica is definitely a inferior missile to both Derby or Astra.
Plus Tejas can't yet break out of its dictated flight regime, 8.5G & 26° AoA have only been tested on LSPs but not operational.

Although, the outboard pylonsof Tejas wings are rated for 150kg+... they should be able to take Derby, leaving the 3 inner pylons for drop-tanks. Presently max 4:
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I agree on some points, like hardpoints, but I'd add a different perspective to this discussion. If a mirage fighter pilot would go out against Tejas, he'd simply won't allow Tejas pilot to gain advantage of the flight performances (vice-versa) but I am at Mirage camp here (for now) for this discussion with following parameters:

1. Loadout configuration
2. ∝
3. Avoiding STR fight a.k.a rate-fight
4. Rate of climb & Speed

#1. Loadout configuration

At 50% fuel with 2x AAM


In the DCS video, the mirage is having WVR combat with guns only, so its at its bare minimum configuration. Its fighting the hornet (not super hornet). If the hornet is flying bare min. configuration, it will be comparable to Tejas with T/W (1.13 at 50% fuel and 2x AAM)

T/W:
Mirage = 0.7
F18 hornet = ~1.13 or lets take 0.96 (official)
Tejas = 1.07

Difference is of 0.26 ~ 0.2 or 0.3 of Tejas.

👉 Meaning Mirage was already fighting a jet with better T/W than it has.

#2 What about alpha?
Hornet is already a better turn-rate fighter than mirage, a hornet pilot will always want to take the fight to STR but at a better altitude to gain Rate-of-descent advantage. Although it enjoys Stall-maneuver, its ineffective in actual combat. Why would you loose so much energy? Mirage fighter will have advantage of Rate of climb with higher speeds. (discussed in later points)

👉 So STR is out of the question. (considering an actual french figher pilot blew an F18 in DCS)

What about high alpha (ITR)?
High alpha fights are rare, considering a single maneuver will command a loss of too much energy and is only essential during tight merges with single-loop fights.

👉 (USAF pilots always try single loop fights at high energy) but at higher altitudes. (check the F16 fighter manual or ask me I'll provide it)

What about Tejas?
Tejas is a delta with better STR and can't say about ITR (because ITR also depends on speed) and at max of 1.8 Mach, its engine or its air-intakes are limiting it, hence the ITR being close to 23⁰ against a 26⁰ ( those figures could be marketing dumps too).
(1.6 is overruled a while ago, at FOC trials it reached 1.8, similar to F18 hornet, hence comparable speeds)

Mirage A.o.A is less compared to that too.

👉So what changed the game by the actual French pilot?

#4. Rate of climb and Speed

1. Mirage pilot would put Tejas into a speed-chase (increased kinematic performance), the overpowered engine would simply reach higher mac numbers at vertical climb than Tejas.

Why? 👉 Because rate-of-climb should be complimented at high mach numbers to achieve single-loop fights. Higher altitude also means, you get to use rate-of-descent for avoiding STRs and putting a low-breathing jet into a stall (see second point).

2. It would make distance, (compliments the former point no.1 ) to avoid STR situation.
3. Because of the underperforming air-intakes, and at higher altitude, Mirage pilot could push Tejas to a stall. (Actual account of Mirage doing it to Mig-21s during 6-days war, considering Mig-21 is a ITR beast)

👉 So ITR is also out of question.

4. To further prove my point



Conclusions: Its all about knowing how you want to take the fight, or understanding your jet, it doesn't matter how good your flight-parameters or aerodynamic performance is (yes, it does have advantages) but at actual engagements, pilot training and assisted avionics will win the fight.
 

A chauhan

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I agree on some points, like hardpoints, but I'd add a different perspective to this discussion. If a mirage fighter pilot would go out against Tejas, he'd simply won't allow Tejas pilot to gain advantage of the flight performances (vice-versa) but I am at Mirage camp here (for now) for this discussion with following parameters:

1. Loadout configuration
2. ∝
3. Avoiding STR fight a.k.a rate-fight
4. Rate of climb & Speed

#1. Loadout configuration

At 50% fuel with 2x AAM


In the DCS video, the mirage is having WVR combat with guns only, so its at its bare minimum configuration. Its fighting the hornet (not super hornet). If the hornet is flying bare min. configuration, it will be comparable to Tejas with T/W (1.13 at 50% fuel and 2x AAM)

T/W:
Mirage = 0.7
F18 hornet = ~1.13 or lets take 0.96 (official)
Tejas = 1.07

Difference is of 0.26 ~ 0.2 or 0.3 of Tejas.

👉 Meaning Mirage was already fighting a jet with better T/W than it has.

#2 What about alpha?
Hornet is already a better turn-rate fighter than mirage, a hornet pilot will always want to take the fight to STR but at a better altitude to gain Rate-of-descent advantage. Although it enjoys Stall-maneuver, its ineffective in actual combat. Why would you loose so much energy? Mirage fighter will have advantage of Rate of climb with higher speeds. (discussed in later points)

👉 So STR is out of the question. (considering an actual french figher pilot blew an F18 in DCS)

What about high alpha (ITR)?
High alpha fights are rare, considering a single maneuver will command a loss of too much energy and is only essential during tight merges with single-loop fights.

👉 (USAF pilots always try single loop fights at high energy) but at higher altitudes. (check the F16 fighter manual or ask me I'll provide it)

What about Tejas?
Tejas is a delta with better STR and can't say about ITR (because ITR also depends on speed) and at max of 1.8 Mach, its engine or its air-intakes are limiting it, hence the ITR being close to 23⁰ against a 26⁰ ( those figures could be marketing dumps too).
(1.6 is overruled a while ago, at FOC trials it reached 1.8, similar to F18 hornet, hence comparable speeds)

Mirage A.o.A is less compared to that too.

👉So what changed the game by the actual French pilot?

#4. Rate of climb and Speed

1. Mirage pilot would put Tejas into a speed-chase (increased kinematic performance), the overpowered engine would simply reach higher mac numbers at vertical climb than Tejas.

Why? 👉 Because rate-of-climb should be complimented at high mach numbers to achieve single-loop fights. Higher altitude also means, you get to use rate-of-descent for avoiding STRs and putting a low-breathing jet into a stall (see second point).

2. It would make distance, (compliments the former point no.1 ) to avoid STR situation.
3. Because of the underperforming air-intakes, and at higher altitude, Mirage pilot could push Tejas to a stall. (Actual account of Mirage doing it to Mig-21s during 6-days war, considering Mig-21 is a ITR beast)

👉 So ITR is also out of question.

4. To further prove my point



Conclusions: Its all about knowing how you want to take the fight, or understanding your jet, it doesn't matter how good your flight-parameters or aerodynamic performance is (yes, it does have advantages) but at actual engagements, pilot training and assisted avionics will win the fight.
DCS also has JF-17 and its 3d model is developed perhaps by Chengdu itself. But no LCA Tejas there ☹☹☹. Mirage 2000C is priced 4551₹ and JF-17 is 6069₹ on steam.
 

scatterStorm

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DCS also has JF-17 and its 3d model is developed perhaps by Chengdu itself. But no LCA Tejas there ☹☹☹. Mirage 2000C is priced 4551₹ and JF-17 is 6069₹ on steam.
Don't want to derail the thread, I agree. Because JF-17 was given FOC earlier, or it could also be highly likely (betting on it) that Chengdu dumped money to eagle dynamics (DCS flight combat simulator developer) for there typical CCP propaganda. Meanwhile, the recent update will have Eurofighter Typhoon too, F22 raptor after like what close to a decade now.
 

A chauhan

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Don't want to derail the thread, I agree. Because JF-17 was given FOC earlier, or it could also be highly likely (betting on it) that Chengdu dumped money to eagle dynamics (DCS flight combat simulator developer) for there typical CCP propaganda. Meanwhile, the recent update will have Eurofighter Typhoon too, F22 raptor after like what close to a decade now.
JF 17 is the second most recommended aircraft in DCS for BVR. So what you said about CCP propaganda is 100% correct. Kaash... LCA Tejas hota in that game.
 

Steven Rogers

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I have seen the entire video but I didn't see him contradicting. Can you tell which part was he contradicting?
The comparison of chinese vs Russian vs west and then comparison of Tejas vs jf17...
Unusual bashing of AMCA while his own paper on AMCA on ORF had mentioned the capabilities they are looking for than what he is talking about...
 

Chandragupt Maurya

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I wanted to ask a question Rafales used GE F404 engines in the prototype stage which was later replaced by their own M88 engines can’t we replace the GE engines of our Tejas with M88 before our own indigenous engine comes because US foreign policy is unpredictable and they can stop the supply of engines any time like they did after the nuclear tests of 1998 and with India buying S400 probability is even higher
 

noobmaster69

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I wanted to ask a question Rafales used GE F404 engines in the prototype stage which was later replaced by their own M88 engines can’t we replace the GE engines of our Tejas with M88 before our own indigenous engine comes because US foreign policy is unpredictable and they can stop the supply of engines any time like they did after the nuclear tests of 1998 and with India buying S400 probability is even higher
The IAF wants the Tejas to be as cheap as possible (proven by the super long negotiations period) and the M88s, with their limited production run, are gonna cost us more that the F404s and thus are not gonna make the cut just like the French Radars. And the F404 we use is an uprated version of the baseline F404 which has a thrust pretty similar to the M88 and was used in Rafales by the French.
 

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