Las Vegas Shooting: More Than 50 Killed and 200 Hurt Near Mandalay Bay

[Project Dharma]

I don't know tbh, though they seem to be doing fine with just the mentality that you/I talked about.

True they don't really have a crime problem. However, they are a very pacifist culture.. Not what you can afford to be when you have ambitions of being a super power and the world's policeman.

 

[Rahul Prakash]

When talking about gun crimes in USA why doesn't anybody from any side of the political spectrum point out the fact that America has a lot of black and Mexican crime that contributes to high gun crime compared to formerly Lilly white europe.it is an obvious observation but it is never mentioned in TV debates?

 

[Suryavanshi]

Facts: more people in Japan die masturbating to hentai then they do from gun violence

 

[Project Dharma]

When talking about gun crimes in USA why doesn't anybody from any side of the political spectrum point out the fact that America has a lot of black and Mexican crime that contributes to high gun crime compared to formerly Lilly white europe.it is an obvious observation but it is never mentioned in TV debates?

That's exactly what I just pointed out.

 

[Razor]

True they don't really have a crime problem. However, they are a very pacifist culture.. Not what you can afford to be when you have ambitions of being a super power and the world's policeman.

Yeah they don't have much of a crime problem, but they aren't really pacifists; it's a different mindset, don't know how to quantify it in words.
They did want to not just become world policeman but bring the whole world under the emperor; they even have a concept called Hakko ichiu.. meaning 8 (directions) under one roof...
I guess the US has tamed them... for now...:biggrin2:

 

[Suryavanshi]

Yeah they don't have much of a crime problem, but they aren't really pacifists; it's a different mindset, don't know how to quantify it in words.
They did want to not just become world policeman but bring the whole world under the emperor; they even have a concept called Hakko ichiu.. meaning 8 (directions) under one roof...
I guess the US has tamed them... for now...:biggrin2:

Japs are weird TBH :bounce:and this is coming from an indian

 

[Rahul Prakash]

I guess the US has tamed them... FOR NOW

DUN dun dun.
Could be the story for a cool new Japanese animu.

 

[Suryavanshi]

DUN dun dun.
Could be the story for a cool new Japanese animu.

We should collaborate with Japs to make a anime on Ramayan and Mahabharat

 

[Dovah]

We should collaborate with Japs to make a anime on Ramayan and Mahabharat

There already is one movie on that. It was pretty good.

 

[Suryavanshi]

There already is one movie on that. It was pretty good.

Yes I remember this one but it would be real nice to have it with new animation technique

 

[Khagesh]

@Razor @Khagesh
................................................................................................................................

You are showing stats that are held out by gun lovers.


Ok pointwise, here goes:

1) “92% of gun violence is in Guns Free Zone” - This is meant to show how absense of guns will not bring down shootings/crime.

This should have caused shame for any country but in the case of US it does not. US has put so many guns out there in the open that even gun free zones (schools, prayer halls) are not safe zones. And the problem does not ends here because ultimately the criminal will not target the people of the guns free zone only. He will kill children and people walking in from Guns Only Zone into these Guns Free Zones.

I say the US should arm the people in these Guns Free Zones also. The earlier these pests die, the better off the rest of the world will be. OK that's dark humour only, arguing out your case.


2) “Gun violence has fallen by 50% since 1993 peak”

I agree US has a proud history of gun violence executed in very high standards of democratic and non-partisan traditions - https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/mass-shootings-in-america/

The really sad part in the above report is that "The 948 people came from nearly every imaginable race, religion and socioeconomic background, and 145 were children or teenagers." I mean the adults were consenting idiots but what wrong was done by the children and teenagers? And what right of self-defence was being exercised against these children and teenagers? Or on the flip side what rational right of self-defence could have been exercised by these children and teenagers?

I can understand somebody killing the voting adults - they have consented to live in these conditions. But the children too. Even Kansa would have some pity.

How can anybody remain and think straight and normal if they see around them "1,516 mass shootings in 1,735 days" - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/oct/02/america-mass-shootings-gun-violence

This is more than even the terrorist incidents in India, Pakistan, Libya and Syria, put together.

Unfortunately also despite the slack the shootings are now far more vicious for far less aggravating provocations.


3) "Gun Show Loophole…..laws normally applied to guns" - This is hilarious. How can anybody even cite this as a data point. The second-hand sales market in guns is completely unregulated. Whatever little legal regulation is there is completely perfunctory. There are so many guns out in the open that even if US were to stop production & sales today they would still have guns a 100 years from today. Ammo can be imported from Peshawar.


4) Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defence in USA - This is a gross over estimate. But even if we were to accept this as truth still you have to consider how many of these are successful. The 0.83% rate that wiki gives for gun usage in self defence in cases of serious crimes is not about successful evasion of crimes. But this 2.5 million that you cite is still only about 0.83%. Imagine what the 100% would really be. This 2.5 million is a two edged sword, when the 100% usage (2.5 mil / 0.83% = 301 million incidents) is calculated. Had they lied a little less, the 100% usage (301 million incidents) would have come down by a commensurate value. This itself shows how stupid and mule headed the gun lobby is. What legitimate use can be addressed by this 100% gun usage.

Ref - For violent crimes, assault, robbery, and rape, guns were used 0.83% of the time in self-defense - McDowall, David, Brian Wiersema (1994). "The Incidence of Defensive Firearm Use by US Crime Victims, 1987 through 1990". American Journal of Public Health. 84 (12): 1982–1984. PMC 1615397 Freely accessible. PMID 7998641. doi:10.2105/AJPH.84.12.1982.


5) Countries that banned guns before going to genocides - Surprisingly enough the two notable mentions are of US itself (against natives) and Pakistan (against East Pakistan). Heh heh. But these most of these countries have kept the guns controls even after their respective genocidal actions. And don't forget "1,516 mass shootings in 1,735 days" would have been a bloody genocide had the killings had been well directed against an identifiable group. Not that US citizens as a group do not amount as an identifiable group, but such is the law and its practice. Koi bhi kya kar sak ta hai.


Here read this and laugh a little at the utter stupidity if you may or cry if can grasp the sheer waste.

Also notice the difference in odds in case of "Assault by Guns" and "Assault by Sharp Objects" . Yeh!!! Man.

http://www.businessinsider.in/Ameri...s-of-nature-combined/articleshow/60917719.cms

 

[Project Dharma]

1) “92% of gun violence is in Guns Free Zone” - This is meant to show how absense of guns will not bring down shootings/crime.

This should have caused shame for any country but in the case of US it does not. US has put so many guns out there in the open that even gun free zones (schools, prayer halls) are not safe zones. And the problem does not ends here because ultimately the criminal will not target the people of the guns free zone only. He will kill children and people walking in from Guns Only Zone into these Guns Free Zones.

I say the US should arm the people in these Guns Free Zones also. The earlier these pests die, the better off the rest of the world will be. OK that's dark humour only, arguing out your case.

I think you misunderstood the point - the point was that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Most of the gun free zones are urban population centers full of blacks and hispanics. And as I said, if you remove them then gun violence in America is comparable to European gun free countries.

2) “Gun violence has fallen by 50% since 1993 peak”

I agree US has a proud history of gun violence executed in very high standards of democratic and non-partisan traditions - https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/mass-shootings-in-america/

The really sad part in the above report is that "The 948 people came from nearly every imaginable race, religion and socioeconomic background, and 145 were children or teenagers." I mean the adults were consenting idiots but what wrong was done by the children and teenagers? And what right of self-defence was being exercised against these children and teenagers? Or on the flip side what rational right of self-defence could have been exercised by these children and teenagers?

How can anybody remain and think straight and normal if they see around them "1,516 mass shootings in 1,735 days" - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/oct/02/america-mass-shootings-gun-violence

Sir ji, I am not the gun lobby so I will not deny that mass shootings are a problem. However, a gun free society controlled by the fed is a bigger problem. So lesser of two evils. Who wants to live in a wussified country like any European country where the government just sells out the interests of its people and invites blood hungry savages from Islamic shitholes. Those guns are American citizen's insurance if the government doesn't look out for them.

Anyway, you're falsely equating victims of mass shooting to self defense. Nobody is denying that mass shootings happen, that doesn't mean self defense isn't a valid use for guns.

3) "Gun Show Loophole…..laws normally applied to guns" - This is hilarious. How can anybody even cite this as a data point. The second-hand sales market in guns is completely unregulated. Whatever little legal regulation is there is completely perfunctory. There are so many guns out in the open that even if US were to stop production & sales today they would still have guns a 100 years from today. Ammo can be imported from Peshawar.

That infographic was for an American audience. So I think you misunderstood because you didn't have context.

Democrats keep talking about a gun show loophole where they claim you can buy a gun without a background check from a gun show. There is no such thing. Guns bought from a gun show still have to go through a background check.

What does exist like you pointed out is that when a person wants to sell a gun to another private party residing in the same state there is no check. That is a problem that needs to be addressed.

However, there is no gun show loophole like Dems claim.

4) Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defence in USA - This is a gross over estimate. But even if we were to accept this as truth still you have to consider how many of these are successful. The 0.83% rate that wiki gives for gun usage in self defence in cases of serious crimes is not about successful evasion of crimes. But this 2.5 million that you cite is still only about 0.83%. Imagine what the 100% would really be. This 2.5 million is a two edged sword, when the 100% usage (2.5 mil / 0.83% = 301 million incidents) is calculated. Had they lied a little less, the 100% usage (301 million incidents) would have come down by a commensurate value. This itself shows how stupid and mule headed the gun lobby is. What legitimate use can be addressed by this 100% gun usage.

Ah different statistics. The 2.5 million is about crimes in which no shot was fired. I don't know how the NRA collects this information.

Let's go with the 0.83% number that you quote. 67, 740 is the total number quoted by the NPC. Total number of deaths per year due to firearms is about 33000

That still means that guns save twice as many lives than they kill.

And remember, you still haven't addressed my point about blacks and hispanics already being armed with illegal weapons. They probably account for most of the 33000 deaths per year.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

5) Countries that banned guns before going to genocides - Surprisingly enough the two notable mentions are of US itself (against natives) and Pakistan (against East Pakistan). Heh heh. But these most of these countries have kept the guns controls even after their respective genocidal actions. And don't forget "1,516 mass shootings in 1,735 days" would have been a bloody genocide had the killings had been well directed against an identifiable group. Not that US citizens as a group do not amount as an identifiable group, but such is the law and its practice. Koi bhi kya kar sak ta hai.

Sir ji, unsure of the point above. ^ If the infographic didn't include US or Pakistan or they didn't disarm the natives before genocide, it doesn't refute anything in what I posted. Neither does keeping guns around afterwards.

Here read this and laugh a little at the utter stupidity if you may or cry if can grasp the sheer waste.

That just reinforces my point even though the caption is obviously a hyperbole. How likely are you to be killed by a gun in America? Not very likely. You are much more likely to kill yourself (suicide) than be killed by a gun. So let's ban people.

 

[spikey360]

I don't think guns can help US citizens with their self defence needs.

Best comment of the day! You should be awarded with th Nobel Peace Prize.

 

[devhensh]

I think you misunderstood the point - the point was that guns don't kill people, people kill people. .

Some very good points and i can see that this comes from real world experience as against lot of hypothetical questions from people, who have no idea about real US.... The points below are for that category of people...

My first post in this thread was to pay condolences to the people who died and introspect on the real reasons behind such mass murders.....But since then this thread has become a Anti Gun and US bashing thread with even Sunny Leone mixed in ....so let's see some facts :

1. Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership in Europe and it has one of the lowest crime and Terrorist incidents......So high gun ownership doesn't mean higher gun related voilence as mentioned by many......Legal gun owners rarely indulge in gun voilence, but they very often have to defend life and property against criminals(mostly Blacks and Hispanics in US)...

2. I don't know why people brought in India in this debate but as my own country...i feel deeply about it....Gun laws and ownership requirements can never be same as these two countries are poles apart in the culture, economics etc....

But to say legal gun ownership and guns have no place in India is stupid....Just one example - Why does the Government arm the VDC(Village Defence Committiees) in Jammu and Kashmir with Automatic rifles .....They should give them rocks to throw .... Or take the case of the old Journalist and his mother who were robbed and stabed to death(in Chandigarh recently)....don't you think he had the right to own a licenced gun to protect himself and even older mother.....

3. In Israel 90% of domestic Terrorist attacks are stopped very quickly by armed common citizens. Almost all of these citizens are actually active duty military personnel who are required to carry their weapons home or when not on duty (Just like Switzerland).....You also don't hear of mass shootings by Citizens.... In early 70's there were many incidents of Israel's Dometic Airlines planes being highjacked....Israel started arming it's Pilots and Crew other than posting armed guards in civilian clothes........The Highjackings stopped after few attempts as terrorists are cowards who look for weak and unarmed victims.....

4. In US, on day to day basis, lots of citizens (men and women), use licensed weapons to protect home , property and life....I personally know of many Grocery Shopowners, Petrol pump owners who have fended off robbers with guns(most of these owners i know are of Indian, Pakistani origin..)....

So guns enable minorities to defend themselves in US......Unlike that entire poor Hindu village which was wiped out by Rohingya militants.....Do you think it would have a happened if the village was armed ?

Didn't want this thread to be a gun debate but ....

 

[ashdoc]

I wonder why the killer's girlfriend marilou danley is not being grilled more thoroughly by the police. The preparation for the attack must have been going on for several weeks. Surely some of that must have not gone unnoticed by someone who lived with him like her ? How come her claim that she knew nothing is being accepted at face value by the police?

43 guns assembled and thousands of rounds of ammunition stored and she says she knew nothing even though she was living with him !! Unbelievable !!

She was sent to Philippines only later but the preparation for the attack must have started earlier than that.

 

[Bharat Ek Khoj]

1. Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership in Europe and it has one of the lowest crime and Terrorist incidents......So high gun ownership doesn't mean higher gun related voilence as mentioned by many......

This has already been discussed, having gun in Switzerland is totally different thing.

 

[devhensh]

This has already been discussed, having gun in Switzerland is totally different thing.

No it's not totally different thing as you say....You have to consider the context of why i said so .....

Both Switzerland & USA are rich and developed nations, with many households having multiple semiauto weapons ...Yet, Switzerland has very little gun related crimes or mass shootings .....So this proves that, the belief that just because a country has libral legal gun licencing culture, it will have lots of gun related crime..is wrong !!! ...i also gave example of Israel....

Somebody correctly pointed out that majority of these crimes in USA are committed by unlicenced criminal elements.....and hardly any by legal gun owners....there are some exceptions like this mass shooting, and that's why i pointed out the the moral, Social and Socio Economic issues needs to be looked into in details ....

Even if the US govenrment took away all the legal guns and stopped issueing new licences.....would the gun crimes stop? They will increase, as then the huge population of criminal illegal gun owners will know that common citizen doesn't have anything to protect themselves with....

 

[pmaitra]

10 rifles into a hotel room???
How did manage to do that.

I have checked into innumerable hotel and motels, with multiple large bags. Nobody ever paid any attention. I suppose even if there are guns in the bags of a guest, it is not frowned upon. You cannot carry guns within some distance of schools though.

_________________

True they don't really have a crime problem. However, they are a very pacifist culture.. Not what you can afford to be when you have ambitions of being a super power and the world's policeman.

Yeah they don't have much of a crime problem, but they aren't really pacifists; it's a different mindset, don't know how to quantify it in words.
They did want to not just become world policeman but bring the whole world under the emperor; they even have a concept called Hakko ichiu.. meaning 8 (directions) under one roof...
I guess the US has tamed them... for now...:biggrin2:

Japanese are not pacifists. They tend to be highly disciplined and respectful. They fight well, but don't advertise much. They did have this concept of Harakiri.

I suppose WWII had some effect on Japan focusing on cars and high-speed trains.

It makes more sense to sell Subarus in the US than to make airplanes to attack Pearl Harbour.

 

[Razor]

I have checked into innumerable hotel and motels, with multiple large bags. Nobody ever paid any attention. I suppose even if there are guns in the bags of a guest, it is not frowned upon. You cannot carry guns within some distance of schools though.

_________________





Japanese are not pacifists. They tend to be highly disciplined and respectful. They fight well, but don't advertise much. They did have this concept of Harakiri.

I suppose WWII had some effect on Japan focusing on cars and high-speed trains.

It makes more sense to sell Subarus in the US than to make airplanes to attack Pearl Harbour.

A lot of the hotels and restaurants seem to explicitly prohibit firearms but I guess a guy looking to murder people isn't bothered about such things.

 

[Bharat Ek Khoj]

No it's not totally different thing as you say....You have to consider the context of why i said so .....

Military service is mandatory in switzerland and gun could be a reward and be seen as a pride unlike USA where some rich-a$$ buying gun for fun or protection.