Kulbhushan Jadhav - Developments

[Jay99]

Eventhough the ICJ Judgement rule partially in indian's favour. What are the chances of KJ actually being brought back to India?

 

[tarunraju]

Eventhough the ICJ Judgement rule partially in indian's favour. What are the chances of KJ actually being brought back to India?

Not 0. If we throw the right carrot or the right stick, they'll hand him over.

With Abhinandan, we used the stick rather than the carrot (massive Navy deployment outside Karachi, and imminent threat of missile strikes).

 

[cyclops]

Now that the pakis have been humiliated I think it's time we send in a spec ops team and exfiltrate with K. Jadhav.

 

[Darth Malgus]

Not 0. If we throw the right carrot or the right stick, they'll hand him over.

With Abhinandan, we used the stick rather than the carrot (massive Navy deployment outside Karachi, and imminent threat of missile strikes).

With Pakis, the only thing that works are sticks and even bigger sticks. Maybe this time threaten to get Karachi/Gwadar Harbor 72d.

 

[Jay99]

Now that the pakis have been humiliated I think it's time we send in a spec ops team and exfiltrate with K. Jadhav.

we need to get one of their High value target...probably military personal as bargaining chip

 

[Indrajit]

Eventhough the ICJ Judgement rule partially in indian's favour. What are the chances of KJ actually being brought back to India?

Depends. I don’t think the Pakistanis are in any hurry to execute him, that would be pointless. They want a political deal possibly in return but we have to keep it to an asset swap. Remember there’s a retired Pakistani ISI Lt.Col. missing. If the Pakistanis want to improve the situation with India, maybe a swap is possible but not easy considering the build up of public emotions on this matter.

 

[Neil]

''Think logically. Why would India send a Naval Officer (RAW, as per you) with a Maharashtrian accent to Pak? Wouldn’t a person speaking Urdu or Punjabi make more sense? If Pak has to send a spy into India, would you send one with a Pashtun accent into New Delhi?''

 

[S.A.T.A]

Depends. I don’t think the Pakistanis are in any hurry to execute him, that would be pointless. They want a political deal possibly in return but we have to keep it to an asset swap. Remember there’s a retired Pakistani ISI Lt.Col. missing. If the Pakistanis want to improve the situation with India, maybe a swap is possible but not easy considering the build up of public emotions on this matter.

Never execute foreign spies, esp when you have your own spies in foreign lands. This is what US attorney James Donovan argued while defending the soviet spy Rudolph Abel in the US Supreme Court. Incidentally it was Donovan who was tasked with arranging the release of U-2 pilot Gary Powers in soviet custody in exchange for Abel.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Troll level ∞∞∞∞

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[Absolut_Vodka]

This post is for Pakis who keep on harping about point 137 in the judgement. Point 137 in ICJ ruling states that there is no connection between Vienna convention and conviction of Jadhav. Court states that annulment of conviction and sentence of KJ is not in ambit of India's argument of violation of Vienna convention by Pakistan.

In simple language India wanted X but aimed for X+Y but got X and Paki victory is absence of Y while they were fighting for not giving India X.

No Paki quotes point 149 which summarizes the Judgement.

Spoiler

149. For these reasons,THE COURT,

(1)Unanimously,Finds that it has jurisdiction, on the basis of Article I of the Optional Protocol concerning the Compulsory Settlement of Disputes to the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 24April 1963, to entertain the Application filed by the Republic of India on 8May 2017;


(2)By fifteen votes to one, Rejects the objections by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to the admissibility of the Application of the Republic of India and findst hat the Application of the Republic of India is admissible; IN

AGAINST:JudgeadhocJillani;


(3)By fifteen votes to one,Finds that, by not informing Mr.Kulbhushan SudhirJadhav without delay of his rights under Article36, paragraph1(b), of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, the Islamic Republic of Pakistan breached the obligations incumbent upon it under that provision;

AGAINST:JudgeadhocJillani;


(4)By fifteen votes to one,Finds that, by not notifying the appropriate consular post of the Republic of India in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan without delay of the detention of Mr.Kulbhushan SudhirJadhav and thereby depriving the Republic of India of the right to render the assistance provided for by the Vienna Convention to the individual concerned, the Islamic Republic of Pakistan breached the obligations incumbent upon it under Article36, paragraph1(b), of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations;

AGAINST:JudgeadhocJillani;


(5)By fifteen votes to one,Finds that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan deprived the Republic of India of the right to communicate with and have access to Mr.Kulbhushan SudhirJadhav, to visit him in detention and to arrange for his legal representation, and thereby breached the obligations incumbent upon it under Article36, paragraph1(a)and (c), of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations;


AGAINST:Judge adhoc Jillani;


(6)By fifteen votes to one, Finds that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is under an obligation to inform Mr.Kulbhushan SudhirJadhav without further delay of his rights and to provide Indian consular officers access to him in accordance with Article36 of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations;


AGAINST:Judge adhoc Jillani;



(7)By fifteen votes to one, Finds that the appropriate reparation in this case consists in the obligation of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to provide, by the means of its own choosing, effective review and reconsideration of the conviction and sentence of Mr.Kulbhushan SudhirJadhav, so as to ensure that full weight is given to the effect of the violation of the rights set forth in Article36 of the Convention,taking account of paragraphs139, 145 and 146 of this Judgment;


AGAINST:Judge adhoc Jillani;


(8)By fifteen votes to one, Declares that a continued stay of execution constitutes an indispensable condition for the effective review and reconsideration of the conviction and sentence of Mr.Kulbhushan SudhirJadhav.


AGAINST:Judge adhoc Jillani




(Signed)Abdulqawi Ahmed YUSUF,President.


(Signed)Jean-Pelé FOMÉTÉ,Deputy-Registrar

Point 137 is not in Point 149 which summarizes and terse court's ruling. It means point 137 is left out of court's proceedings rather than KJ declared or proven anything.

If most of Pakis are incapable of understanding this small argument then Pakistan as a nation has no future.

 

[S.A.T.A]

This post is for Pakis who keep on harping about point 137 in the judgement. Point 137 in ICJ ruling states that there is no connection between Vienna convention and conviction of Jadhav. Court states that annulment of conviction and sentence of KJ is not in ambit of India's argument of violation of Vienna convention by Pakistan.

In simple language India wanted X but aimed for X+Y but got X and Paki victory is absence of Y while they were fighting for not giving India X.

No Paki quotes point 149 which summarizes the Judgement.

Spoiler

149. For these reasons,THE COURT,

(1)Unanimously,Finds that it has jurisdiction, on the basis of Article I of the Optional Protocol concerning the Compulsory Settlement of Disputes to the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 24April 1963, to entertain the Application filed by the Republic of India on 8May 2017;


(2)By fifteen votes to one, Rejects the objections by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to the admissibility of the Application of the Republic of India and findst hat the Application of the Republic of India is admissible; IN

AGAINST:JudgeadhocJillani;


(3)By fifteen votes to one,Finds that, by not informing Mr.Kulbhushan SudhirJadhav without delay of his rights under Article36, paragraph1(b), of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, the Islamic Republic of Pakistan breached the obligations incumbent upon it under that provision;

AGAINST:JudgeadhocJillani;


(4)By fifteen votes to one,Finds that, by not notifying the appropriate consular post of the Republic of India in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan without delay of the detention of Mr.Kulbhushan SudhirJadhav and thereby depriving the Republic of India of the right to render the assistance provided for by the Vienna Convention to the individual concerned, the Islamic Republic of Pakistan breached the obligations incumbent upon it under Article36, paragraph1(b), of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations;

AGAINST:JudgeadhocJillani;


(5)By fifteen votes to one,Finds that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan deprived the Republic of India of the right to communicate with and have access to Mr.Kulbhushan SudhirJadhav, to visit him in detention and to arrange for his legal representation, and thereby breached the obligations incumbent upon it under Article36, paragraph1(a)and (c), of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations;


AGAINST:Judge adhoc Jillani;


(6)By fifteen votes to one, Finds that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is under an obligation to inform Mr.Kulbhushan SudhirJadhav without further delay of his rights and to provide Indian consular officers access to him in accordance with Article36 of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations;


AGAINST:Judge adhoc Jillani;



(7)By fifteen votes to one, Finds that the appropriate reparation in this case consists in the obligation of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to provide, by the means of its own choosing, effective review and reconsideration of the conviction and sentence of Mr.Kulbhushan SudhirJadhav, so as to ensure that full weight is given to the effect of the violation of the rights set forth in Article36 of the Convention,taking account of paragraphs139, 145 and 146 of this Judgment;


AGAINST:Judge adhoc Jillani;


(8)By fifteen votes to one, Declares that a continued stay of execution constitutes an indispensable condition for the effective review and reconsideration of the conviction and sentence of Mr.Kulbhushan SudhirJadhav.


AGAINST:Judge adhoc Jillani




(Signed)Abdulqawi Ahmed YUSUF,President.


(Signed)Jean-Pelé FOMÉTÉ,Deputy-Registrar

Point 137 is not in Point 149 which summarizes and terse court's ruling. It means point 137 is left out of court's proceedings rather than KJ declared or proven anything.

If most of Pakis are incapable of understanding this small argument then Pakistan as a nation has no future.

Pakistan has suffered a string of legal set backs in the international arena in the past few years and the fact that they had to reign in a barrister practicing law in England is perhaps a most telling indictment of true state of jurisprudence in that country. I'll put it down to the fact that Pakistanis have no faith in a constitution or rule based system. They seem to adopt a new constitution every ten years and proceed to suspend it for about the same amount of time.

Back in the days there used to be a joke about pakistani constitution which went like this - A pakistani goes to a very famous bookstore in London, which was reputed to have a copy of the constitution of every country in the world, and inquires about purchasing the Pakistan constitution. The store keeper feigned surprise and says "sorry we don't sell periodicals here".

 

[Deathstar]

we need to get one of their High value target...probably military personal as bargaining chip

High value general is the only option , they wont care even if we kidnap their PM

 

[Nicky G]

How can Harish Salve make such a claim (not sure I heard that either in his press conf)?
India specially asked ICJ for the case to be retried in civilian court and urged that a mere 'review & reconsideration' would be grossly inadequate.

ICJ repeated India's ask of such remedies & but said that it can only grant 'review & reconsideration' that too in a manner of PAKI CHOOSING!!!

Given the above, how can Harish Salve complain to ICJ if the case is not retried in civilian court (a demand that was rejected by ICJ!)?

If I remember correctly, Harish Salve said that he'll go back to ICJ if he felt that the 'review' was not being done in a thorough & honest manner (I am paraphrasing)

There is no specific directive for the review to be in a civilian court, please correct me if I'm wrong.

The order mentions review and not a re-trial, so even a re-trial may not occur.

 

[Nicky G]

Our legal options depends on getting his retrial moved to a Civil court and then get state prosecution to file fresh charges and list evidence. I'm sure even in a backward country like Pakistan, confessions obtained under duress is not admissible as evidence in civil court of law. But I admit we are in for a legal battle that may stretch out for several years, unless the two govt can strike out back room deal.

Let me be blunt and I know this is very harsh on Mr. Jadhav, a back-room deal will involve concessions from our side to the Porkis, which will only incentive them to carry out such stunts in the future.

I think we can keep pursuing the legal line, if it comes to that, but a deal will not be a wise move.

 

[Indrajit]

Let me be blunt and I know this is very harsh on Mr. Jadhav, a back-room deal will involve concessions from our side to the Porkis, which will only incentive them to carry out such stunts in the future.

I think we can keep pursuing the legal line, if it comes to that, but a deal will not be a wise move.

Not necessarily, we might be holding a Pakistani spy of equal rank with us. Political concessions that Pakistani might have been looking forward have probably been re-evaluated with a better idea of how this government seems to behave on these matters. I can’t see Mr.Doval being a softie on this issue. However we can still expect to see some sort of an attempt being made, if you see some Indian channels yesterday, you could have seen some of the usual suspects pushing for some sort of political bargain.. we will have to wait and see how this plays out.

 

[S.A.T.A]

Let me be blunt and I know this is very harsh on Mr. Jadhav, a back-room deal will involve concessions from our side to the Porkis, which will only incentive them to carry out such stunts in the future.

I think we can keep pursuing the legal line, if it comes to that, but a deal will not be a wise move.

Every avenue to rescue our guys behind enemy lines must be pursued, this is important for the morale of the guys already in the field that we got their back. Ideally a deal could be a prisoner swap, if there is any truth to the reports that we got one of their high ranking retd officer in custody. I'm sure the govt will not strike a deal if it was not worth its diplomatic value or them into making steep compromise.

 

[Nicky G]

Not necessarily, we might be holding a Pakistani spy of equal rank with us. Political concessions that Pakistani might have been looking forward have probably been re-evaluated with a better idea of how this government seems to behave on these matters. I can’t see Mr.Doval being a softie on this issue. However we can still expect to see some sort of an attempt being made, if you see some Indian channels yesterday, you could have seen some of the usual suspects pushing for some sort of political bargain.. we will have to wait and see how this plays out.

Consider Porkie situation as well, they have over-blown this issue so much that letting Jadhav go without a major concession will be seen as a defeat, something the Porkie military can never accept to its people. This is very different from our pilot, who was returned in a matter of days.

The track two or closet Pakis will obviously push for a bargain. That's what they get paid for.

 

[Nicky G]

Every avenue to rescue our guys behind enemy lines must be pursued, this is important for the morale of the guys already in the field that we got their back. Ideally a deal could be a prisoner swap, if there is any truth to the reports that we got one of their high ranking retd officer in custody. I'm sure the govt will not strike a deal if it was not worth its diplomatic value or them into making steep compromise.

Same as reply above, Porkis won't admit we captured an official of value and they did not reveal it thus far.

If its between political mileage and national interest, I'm not sure I trust this government.

 

[S.A.T.A]

Same as reply above, Porkis won't admit we captured an official of value and they did not reveal it thus far.

If its between political mileage and national interest, I'm not sure I trust this government.

No doubt that unless India officially announces that it has a pakistani spy in its custody, the premise for a prisoner swap appears problematic. Even if pakistan is ready to release Kulbhushan Jadhav, it has to give a satisfactory reason for the release, esp to its ever suspicious public. Right now pursuing the legal angle appears to be the only plausible avenue.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

No doubt that unless India officially announces that it has a pakistani spy in its custody, the premise for a prisoner swap appears problematic. Even if pakistan is ready to release Kulbhushan Jadhav, it has to give a satisfactory reason for the release, esp to its ever suspicious public. Right now pursuing the legal angle appears to be the only plausible avenue.

Well, I don't think India needs a Pakistani spy in its custody to intimidate Pakistan. Pakistan knows very well how much hostile situation will go if anything happens to Jadhav.