Know Your 'Rafale'

[Frontrunner]

Wrong parallel? Meaning? All what you've mentioned is common knowledge. But you haven't answered the question about their deployment which is the crux of the argument.

Five regiments of the S-400 Triumf are being procured. I have mentioned that most will be deployed in not only in the National Capital Region but also along the Mumbai-Baroda Industrial Corridor and other VAs. It is possible a regiment or two would also be stationed near the western border. However the deployment of these assets are still being worked out.

This will naturally be under the IAF. AD officers and men who will operate this are being trained in Moscow as per the contract.


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As i said S-400 have limited BMD capabilities to be used as a true strategic BMD system.. so noway it is going to be used to protect NCR & other metro cities.. that job would be on AAD PAD whenever it comes online.. S-400 is more of a tactical long range sam with limited BMD capabilities & strategic implications (for both adversary & user)

So here comes wrong parallel wrt BMD & long range tactical sams.. these are two different things.. no long range sam will have true BMD capabilities

Nd instead i would go by the words of our Ex chief where he clearly states the use of S-400 ... I hope this settles the debate on use of S-400 by IAF.. here's the link to article.. nd also there are numerous interview excerpts available in YouTube where ex chief clear states the use of S-400 by IAF.. tho im. Posting relevant parts about S-400 from the article.

‘Rafales will provide India major advantage in Tibet in case of aerial combat’: Ex-IAFchief Dhanoa

Former IAF chief BS Dhanoa said the Rafale, with its fantastic electronic warfare suite and maneuverability, will be able use mountainous terrain in Tibet to its advantage and blind the enemy before India’s strike aircraft penetrate hostile airspace to carry out their missions.

m.hindustantimes.com

Dhanoa, known as the architect of the Balakot strikes, said the Rafale jets along with S-400 missile systems will give the Indian Air Force a major combat edge in the entire region and that India’s adversaries will think twice before starting a war with it.

In case of Pakistan, he said the purpose of the S-400 and Rafale is to hit Pakistani aircraft inside Pakistani air space and not when they come inside Indian territory, adding the neighbouring country would not have responded on February 27 last year to the Balakot air strikes if India had the French-manufactured jets then.

With the induction of the Rafales we will have a tremendous jump in capability. That’s why I called both (Rafale and S 400) of them game changers. Both these platforms will give the IAF a tremendous capability jump. The Rafale in the air and S-400 on the ground.

“Both S-400 and Rafales are critical game changers. Rafale is a deterrent. The purpose of deterrence is not to fight a war. Purpose of deterrence is to make the other person think twice before he starts a war or a skirmish with you,” he said.

 

[Poseidon]

@BON PLAN Sir, RBE-2AA has got 1000 or 838 T/R modules?

 

[Drsomnath999]

Rafales Can Give Big Advantage In Tibet In Aerial Combat: Ex-Air Force Chief
Mr Dhanoa, known as the architect of the Balakot strikes, said the Rafale jets along with S-400 missile systems will give the Indian Air Force a major combat edge in the entire region.

New Delhi:

The Rafale aircraft will give India a strategic advantage in case of any aerial combat with China in the mountainous Tibet region as the fleet will be able to use the terrain to its advantage, destroy enemy air defence and incapacitate the surface-to-air missiles, former Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal (retd) BS Dhanoa said on Sunday.

Mr Dhanoa, known as the architect of the Balakot strikes, said the Rafale jets along with S-400 missile systems will give the Indian Air Force a major combat edge in the entire region and that India's adversaries will think twice before starting a war.

In case of Pakistan, he said the purpose of the S-400 and Rafale is to hit Pakistani aircraft inside Pakistani air space and not when they come inside Indian territory, adding the neighbouring country would not have responded on February 27 last year to the Balakot air strikes if India had the French-manufactured jets then.

In an interview to PTI, Mr Dhanoa said the Rafale, with its fantastic electronic warfare suite and maneuverability, will be able use mountainous terrain in Tibet to its advantage and blind the enemy before India's strike aircraft penetrate hostile airspace to carry out their missions
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The former Chief of Air Staff also said that the Rafales being supplied to the IAF are much more advanced than the ones being used by the French Air Force as India had asked for something "more" due to requirement to operate in unique conditions like operations from Leh.

Five Rafale jets out of 36 arrived India last week at a time India is in the midst of a bitter border row with China in the high altitude eastern Ladakh region.

"Rafale has got a fantastic Electronic Warfare (EW) suite (SPECTRA), fantastic weapons and therefore are capable of protecting themselves electronically besides being able to use the terrain to their advantage," Mr Dhanoa said.

"So they (Rafales) can play an important role in doing DEAD (Destruction of Enemy Air Defence) on the Surface-to-Air Missiles that the Chinese have put on Tibet.


"Once you take out those surface to air missiles then other aircraft like Su30, Jaguars, even Mig 21s can go out and drop the bombs on the Chinese forces. The strike aircraft carrying bombs can put tonnes and tonnes of bombs on the enemy troops, freely carrying out their mission. But if you do not do DEAD then you will suffer a lot of casualties," he said.

The leading air forces globally carry out Suppression of Enemy Air Defence (SEAD) or DEAD using their top of the line aircraft or weapons before launching any major operation in hostile territories.

"Against China there are big Himalayan mountains in between us which create serious line of sight issues. You can put a missile with a range of 300-400 kms on the ground in Tibet or in India. But it will only work within the line of sight," he said.

He said the Rafales, with terrain following capability, will give India a major capability enhancement.

"In air combat, the first thing that is important is information dominance, you get information and deny the enemy the information. The key role the Rafales will play in Tibet is information dominance and in case of Pakistan, it is a major deterrent. Of course there will be other roles too," he said.

Rafales Can Give Big Advantage In Tibet In Aerial Combat: Ex-Air Force Chief

The Rafale aircraft will give India a strategic advantage in case of any aerial combat with China in the mountainous Tibet region as the fleet will be able to use the terrain to its advantage, destroy enemy air defence and incapacitate the surface-to-air missiles, former Chief of Air Staff Air...

www.ndtv.com

 

[Drsomnath999]

@BON PLAN Sir, RBE-2AA has got 1000 or 838 T/R modules?

exact number is around 1050 but the 838 number is of a dummy prototype radar exact frontal pic of rbe 2 aesa radar is classified.

CHEERS

 

[BON PLAN]

"Where Dangerous..." Rest is cut off

Btw, if it's indeed Armée de L'Air, why is the patch in English?

Because english is the langage for air mission and training.

 

[Neptune]

Since we are on the topic of radar, so the French use Link-16 but India doesn’t. I am now wondering if Indian AWACS will be able to have data link between the meteor and AWACS. Technically it’s possible but who knows with the architecture of the Meteor.

Maybe the data is outdated but from what I have read the Rafale’s radar, the RBE-2, only has a search range of 138km. The Meteor has a no escape zone (NEZ) of 80km so it means its actually range is probably beyond 138km. It doesn’t seem like the Rafale has a radar capable of fully exploiting the Meteor unless AWACS is used.


A disclaimers, clearly I understand that a NEZ of 80km is far superior to that of the F-16 even though the F-16s radar has greater detection range. Realistically in combat the AIM-120c5 will probably achieve a kill from no further then 70km, and that’s being generous. Real world conditions will probably allow the F-16 to achieve kills from 40-50kms.

 

[Drsomnath999]

Maybe the data is outdated but from what I have read the Rafale’s radar, the RBE-2, only has a search range of 138km. The Meteor has a no escape zone (NEZ) of 80km so it means its actually range is probably beyond 138km. t doesn’t seem like the Rafale has a radar capable of fully exploiting the Meteor unless AWACS is used.

abolute B.S

RBE 2 aesa radar has already been tested with it's max kinematic potential around 140- 150km in real time testing

Meteor missile completes integrated flight tests on Rafale

www.aircosmosinternational.com

Meteor missile completes final integration flight test from Rafale | Brahmand News

The French Defence Procurement Agency (DGA) along with MBDA, Dassault Aviation and Thales has successfully conducted the fifth and final guided test firing of the Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) system from the Rafale combat aircraft.

www.brahmand.com

Please do google about the recent events of rafale regarding meteor induction before posting such things
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are We gonna buy a plane worth millions with handicap capability

max kinematic range will also depend upon plane 's capabilty like launch height and speed of firing jet
eg - EF typhoon theoritically will have greater aerodynamic kinematic range of metoer compare to rafale

CHEERS

 

[BON PLAN]

Point is countries will improve and integrate weapons as and when need arises. Similar to how even the US does with its own system integration with proven platforms, when it buys weapons from other countries be it the Harrier / Canberra from britain or the latest contract for FREMM frigates from France/Italy

I don't understand.

 

[Mikesingh]

Maybe the data is outdated but from what I have read the Rafale’s radar, the RBE-2, only has a search range of 138km. The Meteor has a no escape zone (NEZ) of 80km so it means its actually range is probably beyond 138km. It doesn’t seem like the Rafale has a radar capable of fully exploiting the Meteor unless AWACS is used.

Though the RBE2-AA (active array) has a detection range of 130-140 kms, external platforms like the AWACs can supplement the on board radar of the Rafale too. As you must be aware, to hit their targets accurately, missiles need mid-course updates to make corrections to their trajectory. If the missile has the latest data on the location of its target, the probability of it hitting the target is better than it would be otherwise.

Meteor missiles can receive such midcourse updates not only from the fighter it is fired from, in this case the Rafale, but also from other friendly fighters in the battle zone, AWACS, and land and sea-based radars. This is especially useful when the missile is chasing a target at long range. Once fired, the missile can depend on AWACS aircraft or ground-based radar, which can track the target at greater ranges than the fighter which fired it.

 

[Ultramarine]

I don't understand.

The USN had recently awarded a contract for FREMM frigates for their FFG(X) competition. This contract will include a host of US developed systems.

This was in reply to the poster who wondered why was the IAF adding a mix of systems to an otherwise proven system(Rafale) (Which as per him was one of the reasons behind the Mi-17 shootdown as the IAF was/is integrating a host of sub systems did not work correctly, which is false and patently untrue).

 

[Neptune]

abolute B.S

RBE 2 aesa radar has already been tested with it's max kinematic potential around 140- 150km in real time testing

Meteor missile completes integrated flight tests on Rafale

www.aircosmosinternational.com

Meteor missile completes final integration flight test from Rafale | Brahmand News

The French Defence Procurement Agency (DGA) along with MBDA, Dassault Aviation and Thales has successfully conducted the fifth and final guided test firing of the Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) system from the Rafale combat aircraft.

www.brahmand.com

Please do google about the recent events of rafale regarding meteor induction before posting such things

Calm down read what I wrote before getting emotional. I clearly stated that the REB2 and Meteor has an advantage over the Pakistani F-16s and their AIM-120s. I was inquiring if the REB2 range was ever increased and if the Meteor was compatible with Falcon or other AWACS.

That link also never said anything about the REB2 being tested to 150km. It’s maximum detection is 138km and detection is not tracking. I’m very aware that the French have link-16 that is compatible with Meteor, there is no doubt the French can exploit the Meteor’s full range. I was asking if Indian AWACS were compatible with Meteor.

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are We gonna buy a plane worth millions with handicap capability

max kinematic range will also depend upon plane 's capabilty like launch height and speed of firing jet
eg - EF typhoon theoritically will have greater aerodynamic kinematic range of metoer compare to rafale

CHEERS

Yes I know that, I was the one explaining that concept long ago in the F-16 shoot-down thread. Hence I differentiated the NEZ and maximum range because altitude, speed and heading of both aircraft all play a role in missile range.

 

[Mikesingh]

As i said S-400 have limited BMD capabilities to be used as a true strategic BMD system.. so noway it is going to be used to protect NCR & other metro cities.. that job would be on AAD PAD whenever it comes online.. S-400 is more of a tactical long range sam with limited BMD capabilities & strategic implications (for both adversary & user)

So here comes wrong parallel wrt BMD & long range tactical sams.. these are two different things.. no long range sam will have true BMD capabilities

Nd instead i would go by the words of our Ex chief where he clearly states the use of S-400 ... I hope this settles the debate on use of S-400 by IAF.. here's the link to article.. nd also there are numerous interview excerpts available in YouTube where ex chief clear states the use of S-400 by IAF.. tho im. Posting relevant parts about S-400 from the article.

‘Rafales will provide India major advantage in Tibet in case of aerial combat’: Ex-IAFchief Dhanoa

Former IAF chief BS Dhanoa said the Rafale, with its fantastic electronic warfare suite and maneuverability, will be able use mountainous terrain in Tibet to its advantage and blind the enemy before India’s strike aircraft penetrate hostile airspace to carry out their missions.

m.hindustantimes.com

Dhanoa, known as the architect of the Balakot strikes, said the Rafale jets along with S-400 missile systems will give the Indian Air Force a major combat edge in the entire region and that India’s adversaries will think twice before starting a war with it.

In case of Pakistan, he said the purpose of the S-400 and Rafale is to hit Pakistani aircraft inside Pakistani air space and not when they come inside Indian territory, adding the neighbouring country would not have responded on February 27 last year to the Balakot air strikes if India had the French-manufactured jets then.

With the induction of the Rafales we will have a tremendous jump in capability. That’s why I called both (Rafale and S 400) of them game changers. Both these platforms will give the IAF a tremendous capability jump. The Rafale in the air and S-400 on the ground.

“Both S-400 and Rafales are critical game changers. Rafale is a deterrent. The purpose of deterrence is not to fight a war. Purpose of deterrence is to make the other person think twice before he starts a war or a skirmish with you,” he said.

The S-400 is a point as well as area defence system for protection of VAs/VPs and protecting coastlines and land borders from enemy aerial threats. However, there's no point arguing now. Let's wait and watch. We'll come back and discuss this once they're deployed.

The Russians and the Chinese have these systems deployed to protect their cities. Russia has deployed their S-400s around Moscow, Saint Petersburg, the coastal Tiksi military base and Central Russia for protection of their cities and the Chinese have already deployed the first regiment for the protection of Beijing and the second soon to be deployed around Shanghai. Let's see where we will be deploying ours - for the protection of the NCR and Economic hubs like Russia and China or on the borders. Doctrines of countries do differ, so we need to wait some.

 

[Drsomnath999]

Calm down read what I wrote before getting emotional. I clearly stated that the REB2 and Meteor has an advantage over the Pakistani F-16s and their AIM-120s. I was inquiring if the REB2 range was ever increased and if the Meteor was compatible with Falcon or other AWACS.
That link also never said anything about the REB2 being tested to 150km. It’s maximum detection is 138km and detection is not tracking

before posting B.S regarding rafale's rbe 2 radar data and meteor firing range capabilty one should do proper research 1st .It's not my fault if i correct you for that mistake .

even the dogs and cats in the streets know by now that rbe 2 aesa has almost twice the detection range of rbe pesa radar.
rbe pesa radar has a detection range of 80-100km against fighter size target ,.Even if you add 50 percent increase to it also 140-150km + detection range .


your info about It’s maximum detection is 138km is outdated
the source from where you got this info is perhaps this

Serious Squall - Aviation Today

The Dassault Aviation Rafale is the newest combat aircraft serving France’s Air Force and Navy. Over the past few years, the twin-engine fighter has replaced the Armée de l’Air’s older Jaguar fighter-bombers and the Aéronavale’s vintage F-8E (FN) Crusader ship-borne interceptors. It is presently...

www.aviationtoday.com

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2009 article

plus maximum range of meteor is classified roughly you take it around 150km even higher

In fox 3 issues magazine i had read sometime back that rbe 2 aesa radar range is fully compatible with meteor's maximum aerodynamic range .I cant remember the exact issue date .

I have to find that issue for your comfort but it will take time there are many issues of fox3 magazines


Anyways you can use your common sense to judge what i am saying why would a country buy a plane where it cant use it's prime BVR missile upto it's full potential.You cant use AWACS everywhere in battle field like deep strike long range mission deep into enemy airspace



CHEERS

 

[BON PLAN]

rbe pesa radar has a detection range of 80-100km against fighter size target ,.Even if you add 50 percent increase to it also 140-150km + detection range .

You're right, but the truth is even higher :

- RBE2 PESA has a 100 km range, maybe a little bit more (valued as similar to french Mirage 2000-5F RDY which has a range of 100 to 120km).
- RBE2 AA (Active Antenna), a prototyp built with US T/R modules, gave a 50% improvement over PESA. It was in late 2000's
- Serial RBE2 AESA has twice the PESA range. Ie somewhere between 200 and 240 kms.

 

[BON PLAN]

plus maximum range of meteor is classified roughly you take it around 150km even higher

No Escape Zone (NEZ) is rumored to 60km in Europe. more than twice that of last known AMRAAM (C7).
Max range is not known. It depends of the agility the target. 150km is more than possible against an awacs or a tanker....

 

[BON PLAN]

What happened to the RBE 2 .

sorry? I don't understand you. What kind of RBE2 ?

 

[BON PLAN]

there is no doubt the French can exploit the Meteor’s full range. I was asking if Indian AWACS were compatible with Meteor.

I don't think.
Because, as far as I know, no AWACS radar is made to guide a missile : no data link aboard.

It's probably not impossible, but an air force that let an awacs so near an ennemy make a huge mistake !

 

[BON PLAN]

Sorry were you talking about the long range version of the current radar ?

The radar fitted in the Indian Rafale is the RBE2 AESA, the last itération.
So it has a range of 200 to 240km where the first gen RBE2 PESA is 100-120km.

The first Rafale delivered to the french army was PESA one. There are always on duty.

All the exported Rafale are AESA one.

 

[Anathema]

I don't think.
Because, as far as I know, no AWACS radar is made to guide a missile : no data link aboard.

It's probably not impossible, but an air force that let an awacs so near an ennemy make a huge mistake !

Bon Plan - Why didnt French go for 2 way data link with Meteor ? Surely it isnt technical - it might be more philosphical.

 

[Drsomnath999]

- Serial RBE2 AESA has twice the PESA range. Ie somewhere between 200 and 240 kms.

Max range against fighter size target is around 180 -190km

Higher rcs target might have greater detection range.

Safe bet is 180km( imo)

CHEERS