Know Your 'Rafale'

BON PLAN

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ToT or CKD for Made in India ” Dassault Rafale ?

8 Years after Talks broke down in 2012, over differences in localisation and pricing of Made in India Dassault Rafale for the Indian Air Force (IAF). Chorus for Direct Government to Government (G2G) deal for the purchase of 114 units of Dassault Rafale as being growing within IAF after France delivered 5 Rafale fighter jets to India and 4 more will be added by end of this month. idrw.org has been told that a hectic Diplomatic push has been seen to convert open tender for 114 units into a G2G deal for the purchase of Dassault Rafale, that will be manufactured in India locally by State-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which has been in talks with the French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault for possible local manufacturing of this jets in near future. The contract price for 36 Dassault Rafale with India specific enhancement and with 75% Fleet availability clause (Spares supplies ) and with mandatory 50% of the USD9.27 billion contract price to be procured from the Indian aerospace and defense sectors as part of the offsets clause meant that the deal was criticized by Opposition parties in India for to being too expensive and Indian National Congress (INC) even called the G2G Deal for 36 jets a scam which was later dismissed by the Supreme court of India. Chief of Defence Staff Gen Bipin Rawat had hinted recently that 36 more fighter jets could be ordered bringing the fleet total to 72, while in the bargain, IAF cancels MMRCA tender for 114 jets and instead orders locally made Tejas Mk1A and Mk2 jets which have not gone down well with Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria and his Deputy Chief of Air Force Air Marshal Sandeep Singh who are pushing for 114 units of Dassault Rafale over 36 which have already been procured. In the new DAP 2020, which came into effect on October 1, the Government has removed the requirement for the offset clause in Inter-Governmental Agreements (IGA) aka Government to Government (G2G) that hints at the possibility of a G2G deal with Dassault Rafale sometime in 2022-23 before the Government goes into election mode in 2024. idrw.org has been informed that while IAF wants 114 more Dassault Rafale fighter jet, GOI and MOD are practically looking at a smaller order number or the contract price might exceed $25 billion due to higher flyaway cost per aircraft since it will be manufactured by State-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) compared with the original the french manufacturer. Rawat has advocated for staggered purchases of fighter jets in the future, his idea being that small batches would be ordered to ensure that allocated funds can cover the price. Dassault has claimed that with one time India specific enhancement investment is done, the second lot of jets will be cheaper and with offset clause removed it be cheaper for the company to manufacture them and offer more discounts. Rawat had suggested that 36 more Dassault Rafale can be ordered in a G2G deal but instead of India pushing for complete Transfer of Technology (ToT) and Complete license-building them from raw material stages it can be done in CKD (Complete Knock Down) so that HAL can be restricted only for final assembly rather than complete built which can see 30-40% additional Owing to the low volume of production of the and due to economies of scale come into play. Once the Second lot of 36 Dassault Rafale are delivered by 2027-28, IAF can then place further orders for more 36 jets while HAL facilities will be used for the next round of localization when these jets are assembled locally. A 114-jet contract is estimated to be valued at $15 billion but, India paid 9.27 billion for 36 jets, and even if the 30% discount is given that still be $18 billion if ordered in CKD and could cost more if it comes with Complete ToT.
All depend of the quantity.
36? = CKD or nearly.
more than 80 = ToT.
It's mainly a financial equation. The ToT costs a lot, in hardware, in training... and divided by a too few numbers it's economically unsuitable.
 

daya

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Jo cheej nahi bana sakte uski TOT hi theek hai.. turbine nahi bana pa rahe.. turbine par baat karen..TOT ki... otherwise aise hi chalta rahega...
 

Arihant Roy

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https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-...nd-by-april/story-Ezh1Pt1Co5frHnWI89LK7M.html

So, a batch of 3 Rafales will arrive in Ambala directly from Merignac on Nov 5. Another three will arrive in January, a further 3 in March and seven will come in April according to the Hindustan Times. This will take the total no of Rafales in India to 21 by April of 21.

While France is willing to offer more Rafale fighters to India, Safran’s offer of making the Snecma M88 engines in India, four years from the day the contract is signed, is a welcome proposal, said the officials cited above.
This is the most important part. Significant. Safran will manufacture M88 engines in India ground up with 100 percent indigenisation . Safran is also open to the idea of utilising variants of M88 to power Tejas mk2.

M88 in its curreny form isn't suitable for mk2. But Snecma have done substantial work on higher wet thrust variants of M88. So if the go ahead is given ,they will come up with a flight ready engine within 2-3 years .


And if Snecma is indeed serious in its offer, we can expect Rafale F4 to win the MRFA tender.
 

Dessert Storm

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https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-...nd-by-april/story-Ezh1Pt1Co5frHnWI89LK7M.html

So, a batch of 3 Rafales will arrive in Ambala directly from Merignac on Nov 5. Another three will arrive in January, a further 3 in March and seven will come in April according to the Hindustan Times. This will take the total no of Rafales in India to 21 by April of 21.



This is the most important part. Significant. Safran will manufacture M88 engines in India ground up with 100 percent indigenisation . Safran is also open to the idea of utilising variants of M88 to power Tejas mk2.

M88 in its curreny form isn't suitable for mk2. But Snecma have done substantial work on higher wet thrust variants of M88. So if the go ahead is given ,they will come up with a flight ready engine within 2-3 years .


And if Snecma is indeed serious in its offer, we can expect Rafale F4 to win the MRFA tender.
We also need to keep an eye on the American offers which may now start coming in. Engine tech is critical.
 

Dessert Storm

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F-414EP’s ToT if we get will be a gamechanger for us, F-414 is world’s most efficient snd reliable aircraft engine.
I was looking at engine tech more from POV of 5-6 gen fighters. Only GE, RR have some sort of work ex on Variable Cycle Engine.
F-414 should be a great engine, but maxes out for 4.5 to early 5gen applications.
For out MWF, TEDBF, probable ORCA sure the 414s are great.
 

BON PLAN

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NATO Pilot Who Flew Rafale Jets Says Other Fighters In Region Mere Target Practice

eurasiantimes.com

NATO Pilot Who Flew Rafale Jets Says Other Fighters In Region Mere Target Practice
Retired Air Force pilot, Stefanos Karavidas, the first Greek pilot to fly Rafale fighters has boasted of capabilities of the French origin jet. This comes after Indian commander had earlier confirmed the unmatched capabilities of Dassault Rafales. IAF Plans To Acquire New Variant Of F-35 Stealth...
eurasiantimes.com
eurasiantimes.com

“I flew in the back seat of such an aircraft during the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) Tiger exercise in 2015, in Konya, Turkey, and I saw for myself its capabilities. It is an excellent flying platform, it has exceptional flexibility, exceptional excess power.”
 

Trololo

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https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-...nd-by-april/story-Ezh1Pt1Co5frHnWI89LK7M.html

So, a batch of 3 Rafales will arrive in Ambala directly from Merignac on Nov 5. Another three will arrive in January, a further 3 in March and seven will come in April according to the Hindustan Times. This will take the total no of Rafales in India to 21 by April of 21.



This is the most important part. Significant. Safran will manufacture M88 engines in India ground up with 100 percent indigenisation . Safran is also open to the idea of utilising variants of M88 to power Tejas mk2.

M88 in its curreny form isn't suitable for mk2. But Snecma have done substantial work on higher wet thrust variants of M88. So if the go ahead is given ,they will come up with a flight ready engine within 2-3 years .


And if Snecma is indeed serious in its offer, we can expect Rafale F4 to win the MRFA tender.
F414 is a done deal for Mk2. Mk2 is designed around the F414. There can perhaps be a drop fit for a high thrust Kaveri, but it will probably be after 2035 when AMCA Mk2 enters production. Having said that the F414 will make an excellent engine for the Mk2. Good that it was chosen.
 

Arihant Roy

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I was looking at engine tech more from POV of 5-6 gen fighters. Only GE, RR have some sort of work ex on Variable Cycle Engine.
F-414 should be a great engine, but maxes out for 4.5 to early 5gen applications.
For out MWF, TEDBF, probable ORCA sure the 414s are great.
Both NPO Saturn and Salyut have done significant work on variable cycle tech. Item 30 is said to have this tech though much is lost in translation from Russian . Some modules of this were designed and developed by Salyut but Saturn is the lead designer . Item 30 is said to be leagues ahead of Item117 which in turn is said to share around 20 percent commonality with Item117S.

The original AL-41 which is altogether different from the present Al-41F1 and AL-41 was rumoured to have a third stream.

RR doesn't have much experience on variable tech. They piggybacked on GE's work.
But Pratt and Whitney has huge experience. Both GE and PW built prototype engines for the ADVENT and later the AETP program with XA101 and XA102 .
 

Dessert Storm

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Both NPO Saturn and Salyut have done significant work on variable cycle tech. Item 30 is said to have this tech though much is lost in translation from Russian . Some modules of this were designed and developed by Salyut but Saturn is the lead designer . Item 30 is said to be leagues ahead of Item117 which in turn is said to share around 20 percent commonality with Item117S.

The original AL-41 which is altogether different from the present Al-41F1 and AL-41 was rumoured to have a third stream.

RR doesn't have much experience on variable tech. They piggybacked on GE's work.
But Pratt and Whitney has huge experience. Both GE and PW built prototype engines for the ADVENT and later the AETP program with XA101 and XA102 .
Would you therefore suggest an engine JV for AMCA with a western engine manufacturer or a Russian one?
 

Arihant Roy

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Would you therefore suggest an engine JV for AMCA with a western engine manufacturer or a Russian one?
Tough call. If Snecma is indeed sincere in its promise and provides us unrestricted access to their tech and also allows us to source most components from in country , we should go with Snecma.

After Snecma UEC aka NPO Saturn is the best bet. We are already manufacturing AL-31FP from the raw material stage . Yes some materials and machined components come from Russia but a substantial portion of the engine by value is Indian.

GE wouldn't even part with F-414EPE tech let alone fifth gen or sixth gen VCE technologies. We have had so many DTTP programs . How many have reached their logical conclusion? The Americans are all about big flashy talk and very little substance . Then there is the issue of being subjected to their moods and whims. They may choose to pull the plug at any given time . Their intent may change overnight. Same can't be said of either Russia and France. Yes France haggled with prices and mostly deliver stuff after the stipulated time but we can live with that.

I will be very happy even if they let us manufacture F404 alongwith it's hot section in-country . But am very certain they wouldn't allow even that.
 

Dessert Storm

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Tough call. If Snecma is indeed sincere in its promise and provides us unrestricted access to their tech and also allows us to source most components from in country , we should go with Snecma.

After Snecma UEC aka NPO Saturn is the best bet. We are already manufacturing AL-31FP from the raw material stage . Yes some materials and machined components come from Russia but a substantial portion of the engine by value is Indian.

GE wouldn't even part with F-414EPE tech let alone fifth gen or sixth gen VCE technologies. We have had so many DTTP programs . How many have reached their logical conclusion? The Americans are all about big flash talk and very less substance .

I will be very happy even if they let us manufacture F404 alongwith it's hot section in-country . But am very certain they wouldn't allow even that.
And Rolls Royce?
 

Arihant Roy

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And Rolls Royce?
As I had earlier mentioned, they have been riding on GE's R&D . Without GE they would struggle to come up with viable solutions.

Even the EJ200 and the EJ2xx variants are pan European efforts . Rolls Royce is no longer the leader when it comes to low bypass turbofans for military applications .

Even in the AETP program they have tied up with GE.
And Pratt also wouldn't part with their tech . Then there is Congress and the matter of seeking approvals.

With Russia and France these would be G2g deals bypassing most of the bureaucracy and politicians .
 

Dessert Storm

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After Snecma UEC aka NPO Saturn is the best bet. We are already manufacturing AL-31FP from the raw material stage . Yes some materials and machined components come from Russia but a substantial portion of the engine by value is Indian.
Hmmmm. Probably why IAF wants AL41 variant in the Super Sukhoi upgrade.
 

Arihant Roy

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Hmmmm. Probably why IAF wants AL41 variant in the Super Sukhoi upgrade.
You mean the AL-41F1S. Sukhoi already has a project to install them on their SM. If we go for an engine upgrade, it will be great. But this engine has a higher inlet fan dia. 932 mm vs 905 mm for AL-31FP. Numbers be a bit off but 41F1S has a higher inlet fan dia
 

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