Know Your 'Rafale'

omaebakabaka

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A fighter jet is not only a frame....
The frame is the faster you can fine tune : see Dassault that built the Rafale A in less than 4 years.
The most difficult is the radar and the engine : it takes to the best no less than 10 years from the beginning.
And after that you have to fine tune all the components together, so as to create a weapons system. See F35 : 14 years after preserial flight, the bird isn't FOC, despite huge money putting in.
One has to start somewhere, and UTTAM is an effort and kaveri too to get some fundamental understanding of the subject in practical dimension. It took colonial masters decades to master things.....I think with if our current government is around for a decade or two you will see India in top 5 to 6 countries in most fields. It is more of a culture thing when it comes to productivity and innovation, India does not lack people with talent....it just has deficiency in creative culture due to our millenium of invasions.

As I said, is apple worth that much over cheap chinese make? or Prada bag worth that much over somethign else? If we can produce something that is good enough that should be good for us....does not have to be king of the hill right away. Having the correct goal is what leads to eventual success
 

BON PLAN

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One has to start somewhere, and UTTAM is an effort and kaveri too to get some fundamental understanding of the subject in practical dimension. It took colonial masters decades to master things.....I think with if our current government is around for a decade or two you will see India in top 5 to 6 countries in most fields. It is more of a culture thing when it comes to productivity and innovation, India does not lack people with talent....it just has deficiency in creative culture due to our millenium of invasions.

As I said, is apple worth that much over cheap chinese make? or Prada bag worth that much over somethign else? If we can produce something that is good enough that should be good for us....does not have to be king of the hill right away. Having the correct goal is what leads to eventual success
UTTAM : I don't know how it is mature and if the modes are fully implemented and if it is possible to produce it in serial mode (to built a proto is one thing, an industrial one another).
Kaveri is not a success...
So the road remains long and hard.
 

Dessert Storm

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Better at what ?

The cost of just upgrading Mirage 2k is 45-50 mn per piece and offset not completed.

Gripen E is much better than Mirage It's sort of a bridge in between Rafale and that.

TOT ? We could have it all depends on the bargaining power plus they were ready to manufacture here with HAL too. Remember Bofors Howitzer they passed on blue prints and all details even when the contract was cancelled midway. Dhanush is based on that.

Rest its not abt jumping in timeline but a mistake identified with French reluctance for TOT and offsets. You can jump in 80s instead when Jaguar were bought instead of Mirage that was a mistake too but not related to my original post which i replied to.
Delivering as promised.

They were planned to shift the assembly line to India for M2K with MMRCA 1.0. So upgradation won't have been a huge problem once the eco-system was India.

You shifted timeline for your Gripen POV to 2010. But it all starts with MMRCA 1.0 where M2K was the one.

Where does this TOT comes in. For 36 it's offset.

Jaguars were pre MMRCA. You are all over the timelines trying to prove your POV.

India would never have supported two single engine programs. You can believe otherwise, dreaming about some alien tech with Gripen TOT.
 

omaebakabaka

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UTTAM : I don't know how it is mature and if the modes are fully implemented and if it is possible to produce it in serial mode (to built a proto is one thing, an industrial one another).
Kaveri is not a success...
So the road remains long and hard.
Yes, it remains long and hard but is there any other way to understand complex things. Uttam will be a success and will more or less meet India's average needs while top of the lines may still be imported for a while. There is no magic here....

Kaveri may not be a success from a commercial or any other angle but it certainly may have lead to some long term goal setting, so any level of engine development is good for India and worth investing in. If they don't then it becomes "never" vs "some day"
 

Flying Dagger

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Delivering as promised.

They were planned to shift the assembly line to India for M2K with MMRCA 1.0. So upgradation won't have been a huge problem once the eco-system was India.

You shifted timeline for your Gripen POV to 2010. But it all starts with MMRCA 1.0 where M2K was the one.

Where does this TOT comes in. For 36 it's offset.

Jaguars were pre MMRCA. You are all over the timelines trying to prove your POV.

India would never have supported two single engine programs. You can believe otherwise, dreaming about some alien tech with Gripen TOT.
Mig 21 replacement thing started in 70/80s. It's similar to the howitzer acquisition when the requirements were raised in 70-80s and still not fulfilled.

French wanted us to buy Mirage but UK insisted on Jags. Rest is history.

Not going further into it. I said 2010 because it's irrelevant now when Tejas is already flying and mk2 is onboard. We have already spent money on Rafale.

If we go by your logic then Mirage would have killed Tejas too as both are single engine fighter jet. It's just ridiculous.

If we had gone for Mirage 2k we would have stuck like Jags when the OEM country stopped using it.

Gripen on the contrary have future. Regarding tech Gripen E except being smaller in size is second to none with advanced user interface and cockpit , infact it is what we want our Tejas mk2 to become or exceed.
 

Steven Rogers

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UTTAM : I don't know how it is mature and if the modes are fully implemented and if it is possible to produce it in serial mode (to built a proto is one thing, an industrial one another).
Kaveri is not a success...
So the road remains long and hard.
All the modes were scheduled to be tested by the end of this year,but of course covid must have delayed that....
 

Dessert Storm

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Mig 21 replacement thing started in 70/80s. It's similar to the howitzer acquisition when the requirements were raised in 70-80s and still not fulfilled.

Not going further into it. I said 2010 because it's irrelevant now when Tejas is already flying and mk2 is onboard. We have already spent money on Rafale.

If we go by your logic then Mirage would have killed Tejas too as both are single engine fighter jet. It's just ridiculous.

If we had gone for Mirage 2k we would have stuck like Jags when the OEM country stopped using it.

Gripen on the contrary have future. Regarding tech Gripen E except being smaller in size is second to none with advanced user interface and cockpit , infact it is what we want our Tejas mk2 to become or exceed.
All that TOT comes in with the full MMRCA not flyaways. Flyaways give you just offsets.

We have dealt with the French before, that matters too.
Mig 21 replacement thing started in 70/80s. It's similar to the howitzer acquisition when the requirements were raised in 70-80s and still not fulfilled.

French wanted us to buy Mirage but UK insisted on Jags. Rest is history.

Not going further into it. I said 2010 because it's irrelevant now when Tejas is already flying and mk2 is onboard. We have already spent money on Rafale.

If we go by your logic then Mirage would have killed Tejas too as both are single engine fighter jet. It's just ridiculous.

If we had gone for Mirage 2k we would have stuck like Jags when the OEM country stopped using it.

Gripen on the contrary have future. Regarding tech Gripen E except being smaller in size is second to none with advanced user interface and cockpit , infact it is what we want our Tejas mk2 to become or exceed.
As mentioned by you, Gripen is small in size. It's because of this it would be a threat to Tejas not M2K. M2K is Medium weight n Gripen is Small n Light.

MWF would still be great without Gripen. You are presenting it's case as though Gripen TOT, if delivered (who knows) would be cure all.
 

Chandragupt Maurya

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All that TOT comes in with the full MMRCA not flyaways. Flyaways give you just offsets.

We have dealt with the French before, that matters too.
As mentioned by you, Gripen is small in size. It's because of this it would be a threat to Tejas not M2K. M2K is Medium weight n Gripen is Small n Light.

MWF would still be great without Gripen. You are presenting it's case as though Gripen TOT, if delivered (who knows) would be cure all.
Gripen is the best aircraft in its class but it should never be imported as Tejas is also in the same class and is almost at par with Gripen even if it lags in some areas it will ultimately match and even overtake gripen as the best single engine aircraft
But Gripen is always a better choice in comparison to Mig29 or Mirage 2000
 

Flying Dagger

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All that TOT comes in with the full MMRCA not flyaways. Flyaways give you just offsets.

We have dealt with the French before, that matters too.
As mentioned by you, Gripen is small in size. It's because of this it would be a threat to Tejas not M2K. M2K is Medium weight n Gripen is Small n Light.

MWF would still be great without Gripen. You are presenting it's case as though Gripen TOT, if delivered (who knows) would be cure all.
Who told you that ? 50% offset is the part of deal 36 or 126. Based on that they can either invest and create job or provide TOT and they did none. And it's not just 36 fighter jet but previous M2k upgrade offset too which is not completed.

And first decide what's your quarrel with Single engine or light and MWF.

And how did M2k became MWF and Gripen light?

Between for your Info Gripen E can carry more payload than M2k πŸ˜‚
 

Dessert Storm

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Who told you that ? 50% offset is the part of deal 36 or 126. Based on that they can either invest and create job or provide TOT and they did none. And it's not just 36 fighter jet but previous M2k upgrade offset too which is not completed.

And first decide what's your quarrel with Single engine or light and MWF.

And how did M2k became MWF and Gripen light?

Between for your Info Gripen E can carry more payload than M2k πŸ˜‚
Offset is different from TOT. Signing of full MMRCA had TOT. Flyaways come with just offset.

As I said. You can keep shifting timelines to prove your POV. MMRCA 1.0 was tailor made for M2K.
 

Dessert Storm

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How will you deliver those offset ? πŸ™‚
TOT is transfer of tech in the platform. Offset is using the value of offset in for example setting up manufacturing fuselage of Dassault Business Jets.
* Huge difference in transferring Rafale Tech Vs Dassault Business Jet Tech
 

Flying Dagger

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TOT is transfer of tech in the platform. Offset is using the value of offset in for example setting up manufacturing fuselage of Dassault Business Jets.
Here Pvt partners like Reliance will be transferred TOT to do the job . That's part of Dassault offset obligation.

Same with Snecma they are supposed to provide the same to GTRE by working out with them.

Remember it's HAL which is out of offset deal for assembling other companies like GTRE etc are still part of it.

Thales Safran MBDA needs to workout too.
 

Dessert Storm

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Here Pvt partners like Reliance will be transferred tot to do the job . That's part of Dassault offset obligation.

Same with Snecma they are supposed to provide the same to GTRE by working out with them.

Remember it's HAL which is out of offset deal for assembling other companies like GTRE etc are still part of it.
I am repeating TOT to partners will happen only with full deal. Otherwise it's just offsets. There is a difference between the two terms.
 

Flying Dagger

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I am repeating TOT to partners will happen only with full deal. Otherwise it's just offsets. There is a difference between the two terms.
Repeat as much as you want ..

First tell me how will offset be delivered without TOT ?

Safran Snecma Engine have to provide offset value by working out with GTRE now tell me what they are going to do.

( They aren't working out yet that's the problem for your info )

πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚
 

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