Know Your 'Rafale'

[Immanuel]

In some aspects SH block 3 is good as rafale, but in general it's a fighter at lower level than rafale, but with the same price

Block 3 is a step ahead of the Rafale, it will have a better cockpit, better radars, IRST, similar range, better weapons choice, Enclosed weapons Pods ((far lower RCS), better datalink, next gen mission computers.

 

[BON PLAN]

Please, a war mode F-18 Growler would run circles around the Rafale in all areas, specially avionics, weapons choice, operational costs and overall reliability

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[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Kaveri won't go anywhere near MK-2 till it is actually tested fully on several of the LCA LSPs. Flight testing of brand new engine on a new platform takes time and IAF won't put this engine on the MK-1A let alone the MK-2 till it is certified (this can take anywhere between 3-5 years). Engines need thousands of hours of tests on the ground before they go anywhere near an aircraft and with LCA there is absolute caution due to it's stellar flying record.

Also there is no indication whatsoever that the GE contract for 99 engines plus spares will be cancelled, several engines have already been delivered to India. Plus, Kaveri K-9 doesn't match need of the LCA mk-2. Kaveri K-10 engine is still on the drawing board and will be several years before it's cleared for LCA.

For now and LCA MK-1/ MK-1A will be powered by GE F404 engines and MK-2 with F414. Kaveri can at best replace those engines during MLU.

Kaveri engine is not a new engine. It was in 2006 that the specs of Kaveri was upgraded to match those of F414. So, current Kaveri is meant to be similar to F414. It will be derated and life improved to make 90kN engine for Tejas MK1. K10 and K9 will have same core but different configuration with K9 being derated. This is already in advanced stage of development and is said to be ready for flight by 2019

Can you tell me why F414 has not been delivered in good quantity till now if 99 order of 2010 is still running? Does it take 8 years to deliver just 2 engine?

 

[BON PLAN]

Block 3 is a step ahead of the Rafale, it will have a better cockpit, better radars, IRST, similar range, better weapons choice, Enclosed weapons Pods ((far lower RCS), better datalink, next gen mission computers.

Better cockpit? why? because greater panels? the important is not the size, but the informations on.

Better radar : no evidence. Greater antenna, it's the only real thing we all know. (remember that the first prototyp of RBE2AA used US T/R. The gain was not so important, that's why UAE needed a 13Kw instead of the current 9.6Kw. With european TR, the gain was 30 to 50% better than with US ones....)

Similar range : NO.

Better weapons choice : YES.

Weapons pods : Rafale can have it also. Difference is may be called Spectra....

Better datalink? No évidence.

Next gen computer ? rafale has the EMTI for years, it evolves with the shipset available on the market, and the space available in the plane to instal more.

 

[Immanuel]

Rafale deal is direct buy of 36 aircraft with 18 more in options at the same inflation adjusted price. So atleast 54 Rafales in total is a done deal.

More than that MRCA 2.0 is no automatic hand out for the Rafale although it has a good chance. Moreso, there is no guarantee that Modi will win again. No more orders till elections are done. GST and Demoni. had and have made life miserable for many in the country.

Actually with Trade pressures, CAATSA and growing relations with US, chances are MRCA 2.0 will go the US way.
Also, Boeing or LM don't get to decide what TOT can be actually offered. During MRCA 1.0 Boeing was fully committed with meeting the RFP stated minimum 60% TOT including AESA from Raytheon but TOT clearance comes from US Congress.

 

[Immanuel]

Better cockpit? why? because greater panels? the important is not the size, but the informations on.

Better radar : no evidence. Greater antenna, it's the only real thing we all know. (remember that the first prototyp of RBE2AA used US T/R. The gain was not so important, that's why UAE needed a 13Kw instead of the current 9.6Kw. With european TR, the gain was 30 to 50% better than with US ones....)

Similar range : NO.

Better weapons choice : YES.

Weapons pods : Rafale can have it also. Difference is may be called Spectra....

Better datalink? No évidence.

Next gen computer ? rafale has the EMTI for years, it evolves with the shipset available on the market, and the space available in the plane to instal more.

Yes but a better cockpit with bigger panels allows for better assimilation of information. Rafale's cockpit is cramped.

Spectra is old cloaking technology good for old Soviet SAMs, it is in no way good enough for modern SAMs.

New data links on the Super Hornet will be better the Link-16, fact, lot more processing and sharing of information cross platforms. Rafale doesn't even have a good distributed targeting system. IAF needed a 3rd party helmet for it be good.

The Block 3's radar is being upgraded as well. Block 2 APG-79's current performance is around 100 NM for a 1m2 target.

Weapons Pods, Rafales won't have it till they actually have it. In all upgrades Block 3 program is far ahead in execution than F-4.

 

[BON PLAN]

Yes but a better cockpit with bigger panels allows for better assimilation of information. Rafale's cockpit is cramped.

Spectra is old cloaking technology good for old Soviet SAMs, it is in no way good enough for modern SAMs.

New data links on the Super Hornet will be better the Link-16, fact, lot more processing and sharing of information cross platforms. Rafale doesn't even have a good distributed targeting system. IAF needed a 3rd party helmet for it be good.

The Block 3's radar is being upgraded as well. Block 2 APG-79's current performance is around 100 NM for a 1m2 target.

Weapons Pods, Rafales won't have it till they actually have it. In all upgrades Block 3 program is far ahead in execution than F-4.

size of panels... what is better when you watch TV : to see a 1m² screen at a distance of 1mt or to watch a 1.41m² at a distance of 2m ?

France already uses new data links and sat links (for deterrence mission for exemple). one of the Rafale F4 target is to be on par with F35 in 2024 on communication node (maybe F35 will be FOC at those time.... )

Helmet : Rafale is integrated with a top class helmet. It came late, but it is ok now.

Radar : The RBE2 AESA is said to have 170 to 195 km range over a 1m² (the PESA perf was 100km, the AA prototyp (with US T/R modules) was 130 km, the AESA with EU modules is 30 to 50% more than AA so 170 to 195km

Spectra : It's the most secret device of the Rafale. The perf are not in the public domain. And it is the costlier also (20% of the dev cost of the plane). Maybe it is shit. Maybe it is not. Thales is not a noobie in this field.... 60 years of practice.

Weapons pods : the easier things to developp. And for now no SH18 use it operationnaly. Only on a US speciality : on power point presentation.

 

[BON PLAN]

Actually with Trade pressures, CAATSA and growing relations with US, chances are MRCA 2.0 will go the US way.
Also, Boeing or LM don't get to decide what TOT can be actually offered. During MRCA 1.0 Boeing was fully committed with meeting the RFP stated minimum 60% TOT including AESA from Raytheon but TOT clearance comes from US Congress.

Globally yes, but despite US pressure India purchased S400.
Trump is far too direct for the very sensitive leader Modi is.
With the "America first" Trump rule, I don't see US diving MII and so much ToT.... Trump is not Obama.
Boieng can say 60%. Even 90%. At the end Boeing can only do what US top brass decide. And the top brass is Trump

 

[vampyrbladez]

Please, a war mode F-18 Growler would run circles around the Rafale in all areas, specially avionics, weapons choice, operational costs and overall reliability

EA 18 Growler is an EW fighter with lower kinetic performance due to payloads and increased weight. Rafale is a supermaneuverable fighter with M 1.4 Supercruise performance and lower wing loading and a far superior TWR.
Radars in both are around AESA based 1100 T/R modules.

Operational costs and negligible once you have higher serviceability, lower maintenance downtime and easy availability of spares and a home base MiC to indigenize production of sub components. Your arguements are comparing apples to oranges.

 

[smestarz]

To correct you, there are just 36 planes there are no options, and this is reported by the then DM Parrikar.

Rafale deal is direct buy of 36 aircraft with 18 more in options at the same inflation adjusted price. So atleast 54 Rafales in total is a done deal.

More than that MRCA 2.0 is no automatic hand out for the Rafale although it has a good chance. Moreso, there is no guarantee that Modi will win again. No more orders till elections are done. GST and Demoni. had and have made life miserable for many in the country.

Actually with Trade pressures, CAATSA and growing relations with US, chances are MRCA 2.0 will go the US way.
Also, Boeing or LM don't get to decide what TOT can be actually offered. During MRCA 1.0 Boeing was fully committed with meeting the RFP stated minimum 60% TOT including AESA from Raytheon but TOT clearance comes from US Congress.

 

[tharun]

Gripen ( E model in this case. A plane not FOC...) seems untouchable.

And Rafale, as already said, is slighly better than EF.

Not to speak of F35...

Very good comparision
Can you please add few more.

Sent from my Redmi 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Sancho]

Context ? You understand the french langage so nice that you can detect a context ? Sure not my friend. Sure not.

Lol is the name Reliance written differently in French? It is given in the document itself.

And the price of the Rafale is well known : 90 - 95 € millions each. In a F3R indianised version (already paid)

Wrong, that's the flyaway cost without Indian customization, they come extra and just as in the case of the EF, the F18 doesn't need all the customisations the Rafale needed.

The F18 Block 3 has

- HMS
- Litening targeting pod
- Towed Decoy
- Harpoon, Asraam and US LGBs (Jaguar weapon commonality)

So just more denial from you, for the obvious fact, that Rafale simply can't be sold as a cost-effective fighter.

 

[Sancho]

Block 3 is a step ahead of the Rafale, it will have a better cockpit, better radars, IRST, similar range, better weapons choice, Enclosed weapons Pods ((far lower RCS), better datalink, next gen mission computers.

Block 3 doesn't include the weapon pod and even if it's true that it adds new techs, it falls by far short wrt EW. That's why the US is selling EW capabilities that Rafale and EF show for a decade, as NG in the F35.
Other than that it also falls clearly short in flight performance and that was a deal breaker in the original MMRCA for sure, which is why Boeing/GE tried to get the EPE in as a last minute solution. However MMRCA 2.0 might have different priorities, let alone the Indian government.
Wrt weapons, the F18 has the better variety, especially in the A2G field, but not necessarily the better once. The AAMs can't compete with European counterparts anymore, which is why more and more Teen customers switch to them. AASM is known to be more precise and capable than JDAM, Scalp has no comparison in the US weapon pack, that would be available to India. But here again, costs are an advantage! Nearly any Rafale weapon is clearly costlier than US weapons and history showed us, that having a limited variety of costly French bombs, could be a problem in war times, which is probably one reason for IAF to add Israeli weapons to Mirage and Rafale.

There was a clear tech and capability difference between F18 and Rafale in the original MMRCA, now it got closer and cost as well as politics can change the game too.

 

[BON PLAN]

Wrong, that's the flyaway cost without Indian customization, they come extra and just as in the case of the EF, the F18 doesn't need all the customisations the Rafale needed.

The F18 Block 3 has

- HMS
- Litening targeting pod
- Towed Decoy
- Harpoon, Asraam and US LGBs (Jaguar weapon commonality)

So just more denial from you, for the obvious fact, that Rafale simply can't be sold as a cost-effective fighter.

We were speaking of futur purchase. Indigenisation is already paid, and are mainly software improvements, so the next batch will be delivered with a price in the french air force area. It's not the price of a helmet that will change the final bill so much.

In the early 2019 Qatar will receive its first Rafale with helmet. In less than one year, Indian will follow. You can definitively forget the helmet argument.
Same with laser pod : Rafale customer will have a deeper choice than with SH18 !
Towed decoy : Rafale will receive active dispensable decoy.
Harpoon > Exocet. Asraam < MICA IR LGB: no Pb. And AASM Hammer only on Rafale.

 

[BON PLAN]

Block 3 doesn't include the weapon pod and even if it's true that it adds new techs, it falls by far short wrt EW. That's why the US is selling EW capabilities that Rafale and EF show for a decade, as NG in the F35.
Other than that it also falls clearly short in flight performance and that was a deal breaker in the original MMRCA for sure, which is why Boeing/GE tried to get the EPE in as a last minute solution. However MMRCA 2.0 might have different priorities, let alone the Indian government.
Wrt weapons, the F18 has the better variety, especially in the A2G field, but not necessarily the better once. The AAMs can't compete with European counterparts anymore, which is why more and more Teen customers switch to them. AASM is known to be more precise and capable than JDAM, Scalp has no comparison in the US weapon pack, that would be available to India. But here again, costs are an advantage! Nearly any Rafale weapon is clearly costlier than US weapons and history showed us, that having a limited variety of costly French bombs, could be a problem in war times, which is probably one reason for IAF to add Israeli weapons to Mirage and Rafale.

There was a clear tech and capability difference between F18 and Rafale in the original MMRCA, now it got closer and cost as well as politics can change the game too.

The sole asset of SH18 vs Rafale is the variety of weapons. that's all.

 

[Sancho]

We were speaking of futur purchase.

No, we were talking about the flyaway cost difference, but changing the topic won't change the facts.

 

[WolfPack86]

HAL Chief R Madhavan on the Rafale controversy, updates on the LCA project, the offsets question and prospects in the upcoming 110 fighter jet deal.

 

[asianobserve]

US Navy to award large-area display contract for Super Hornets and Growlers

https://www.janes.com/article/83527...splay-contract-for-super-hornets-and-growlers

 

[BON PLAN]

No, we were talking about the flyaway cost difference, but changing the topic won't change the facts.

Sorry NO.
We were speaking of the costs of MMRCA2, and in the case of Rafale the indigenisation is already paid. For any other contender and in case of the same requirements, it has to be added.
It's not my habit to change of topic, and specially with Rafale.

 

[BON PLAN]

US Navy to award large-area display contract for Super Hornets and Growlers

https://www.janes.com/article/83527...splay-contract-for-super-hornets-and-growlers

Nice. It's very usefull to play chess between pilot and rear seat.

Or it is because US pilots are more and more nearsighted.

Look the 2 screens of front and rear SH18 bk3 seat : A large picture in the middle and two smaller on each side...
Something like that ....

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