Know Your 'Rafale'

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

I have been screaming hoarse about this very fact. No country customizes their buy if only 36 is final no. This is like buying Su 30M and then buying Su 30MKI with ToT.

We all agree with you. But you are getting jingoist and making up many other things. Rafale deal is a strategic deal which involves much more than Rafale and encompasses several ToT. Yes, definitely the MMRCA-2 will be rafale only.

This deal is however, not because of Rafale being awesome but because of the ToT deal which is being kept secret. The Indian interest in rafale is because France is offering attractive ToTs which is hard to come by otherwise

 

[vampyrbladez]

We all agree with you. But you are getting jingoist and making up many other things. Rafale deal is a strategic deal which involves much more than Rafale and encompasses several ToT. Yes, definitely the MMRCA-2 will be rafale only.

This deal is however, not because of Rafale being awesome but because of the ToT deal which is being kept secret. The Indian interest in rafale is because France is offering attractive ToTs which is hard to come by otherwise

So this is ultimately circular logic. ToT and a new MiC is the need of the hour. We need a solid private sector approach to this or our immediate needs will not be met let alone future ones.

Regarding jingoism. I have been restrained in my language till the personal attacks started.

 

[Compersion]

With Sukhoi MKI it always said we paid “too” much. Imagine on the contrary being taken advantage of when in a weak position. Imagine being sucked out of and stolen of their intellectual property when weak. Imagine having manners and offering a lady a jacket. Do manners matter?

With France the tender in the end was not about France getting a bad deal but something else.

I once came across a noble person behind the scenes acting in mysterious ways and when they acted - talked everyone came along without knowing and sometimes even with luck XXXXXXXXX even when making points among and within. After it all I asked the person show yourself. They replied - Nothing beautiful asks for attention. Jai Hind

 

[lexa]

And the price of the Rafale is well known : 90 - 95 € millions each. In a F3R indianised version (already paid)
A SH is said to cost 85$ millions (. Add the cost of indian special customization. Are the US of Trump OK to give you the sensible datas so as to integrate ASTRA ?

This is price of SH for USN (and really the price is higher even for USN) and export price of Rafale.
For example :

last committed deal for Australia (2013)
http://www.dsca.mil:80/major-arms-sales/australia-fa-18ef-super-hornet-and-ea-18g-growler-aircraft
12 SH+12Growler with some spares and equipments wo weapons = $3.7 billion ~ $154mln avg price per unit

40 SH offer for Kuwait (2016)
https://web.archive.org/web/2018102...-kuwait-fa-18ef-super-hornet-aircraft-support
with some spares and equipments wo weapons =$10.1 billion ~ $252mln avg price per unit


18 SH offer for Canada (2017)
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/government-canada-fa-18ef-super-hornet-aircraft-support
with some spares and equipments and weapons (weapons pack ~$100mln)= $5.23 billion ~ 290 $mln avg price per unit

all of these wo offset and special customisation

it seems that real export price of SH no less than $100mln ie the same level as Rafale and determined by the exchange rate EUR/USD. Although HS has some advantage in prime cost bcz higher level of production

 

[vampyrbladez]

This is price of SH for USN (and really the price is higher even for USN) and export price of Rafale.
For example :

last committed deal for Australia (2013)
http://www.dsca.mil:80/major-arms-sales/australia-fa-18ef-super-hornet-and-ea-18g-growler-aircraft
12 SH+12Growler with some spares and equipments wo weapons = $3.7 billion ~ $154mln avg price per unit

40 SH offer for Kuwait (2016)
https://web.archive.org/web/2018102...-kuwait-fa-18ef-super-hornet-aircraft-support
with some spares and equipments wo weapons =$10.1 billion ~ $252mln avg price per unit


18 SH offer for Canada (2017)
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/government-canada-fa-18ef-super-hornet-aircraft-support
with some spares and equipments and weapons (weapons pack ~$100mln)= $5.23 billion ~ 290 $mln avg price per unit

all of these wo offset and special customisation

it seems that real export price of SH no less than $100mln ie the same level as Rafale and determined by the exchange rate EUR/USD. Although HS has some advantage in prime cost bcz higher level of production

SH has nowhere near tech as Rafale. Even radar is about the same.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

So this is ultimately circular logic. ToT and a new MiC is the need of the hour. We need a solid private sector approach to this or our immediate needs will not be met let alone future ones.

Regarding jingoism. I have been restrained in my language till the personal attacks started.

Private sector is not some magical solution. Private sectors were funded by this govt in 2015 as reimbursement for any defence designing and development they undertake. They ended up making fancy designs of FRCV and simple vehicles and claiming the compensation.

The reason we need private sector is because we want to build a solid MIC and for that we need to scale up rapidly. Private sectors are good only for screwdriver jobs but do these in fast paced manner. But otherwise, quality wise and R&D wise, PSU is better than private sector.

What rafale offers is not just a private MIC but actual ToT based on R&D. This R&D shortcut is what attracted India, not simply any offset to private companies. France is offering offsets to India after charging Indian govt for the money. So, there would be no reason govt itself could not simply fund the private sector offsets instead of using middlemen in France. The R&D items is the crux of the deal, not private sector

 

[vampyrbladez]

Private sector is not some magical solution. Private sectors were funded by this govt in 2015 as reimbursement for any defence designing and development they undertake. They ended up making fancy designs of FRCV and simple vehicles and claiming the compensation.

The reason we need private sector is because we want to build a solid MIC and for that we need to scale up rapidly. Private sectors are good only for screwdriver jobs but do these in fast paced manner. But otherwise, quality wise and R&D wise, PSU is better than private sector.

What rafale offers is not just a private MIC but actual ToT based on R&D. This R&D shortcut is what attracted India, not simply any offset to private companies. France is offering offsets to India after charging Indian govt for the money. So, there would be no reason govt itself could not simply fund the private sector offsets instead of using middlemen in France. The R&D items is the crux of the deal, not private sector

PSUs are the reason why India has no MiC. Even Russia and China have PSU but they produce decent and in Russian case world beating equipment.

Private sector has a simple rule - perform or perish. No Lalaji attitude there. Don't want to work and strike? There are 50 people outside the door who will take your job. Thats why things get done fast and in an efficient manner.

DRAL was operational in 2017 and they are making nose cones and parts of Falcon Jets already. Given 2 years they will start manufacturing spares and parts of Rafale in house as well.

L&T has already started to exceed quotas of K9 artillery order with ability to bump up production. Meanwhile HAL being OEM can't produce 8 LCA for 2 IAF squadrons annually. I am not even going to consider Su 30MKI orders running 3 yrs late and being flown in ready made directly from Russia.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

PSUs are the reason why India has no MiC. Even Russia and China have PSU but they produce decent and in Russian case world beating equipment.

Private sector has a simple rule - perform or perish. No Lalaji attitude there. Don't want to work and strike? There are 50 people outside the door who will take your job. Thats why things get done fast and in an efficient manner.

DRAL was operational in 2017 and they are making nose cones and parts of Falcon Jets already. Given 2 years they will start manufacturing spares and parts of Rafale in house as well.

L&T has already started to exceed quotas of K9 artillery order with ability to bump up production. Meanwhile HAL being OEM can't produce 8 LCA for 2 IAF squadrons annually. I am not even going to consider Su 30MKI orders running 3 yrs late and being flown in ready made directly from Russia.

PSUs are the reason India has at least some MIC. If India had private defence companies, congress would have ensured that they would shut shop by giving erratic orders. In case of PSU, even when there is no order, there will still be govt funds to sustain talented and experienced hands. For a situation as in India where the govt was sabotaging defence intentionally, PSU was the only solution.

Instead of trying to find a method whereby you can immediately stop sabotage by govt, you are beating around the bush by blaming PSUs. The solution to have good defence is to raise a militia with heavy arms and constantly threaten to attack the MPs and ministers if they don't fund the defence R&D to the right extent. Private players are not the solution but militia is.

 

[vampyrbladez]

PSUs are the reason India has at least some MIC. If India had private defence companies, congress would have ensured that they would shut shop by giving erratic orders. In case of PSU, even when there is no order, there will still be govt funds to sustain talented and experienced hands. For a situation as in India where the govt was sabotaging defence intentionally, PSU was the only solution.

Instead of trying to find a method whereby you can immediately stop sabotage by govt, you are beating around the bush by blaming PSUs. The solution to have good defence is to raise a militia with heavy arms and constantly threaten to attack the MPs and ministers if they don't fund the defence R&D to the right extent. Private players are not the solution but militia is.

If PSU are sold on public offering to private sector as ToT JV or simply as scrap even then the damage they have caused will be irrecoverable. Unlike ISRO who actually want to achieve a noble goal and work hard to make the country proud these chaps are bigger saboteurs than external threats.

That is juvenile jargon. Only solution is lobbying and shaming them to cooperate with private sector. This has seen moderate success with Naval Yards like GRSE and CSL who have cleaned up their acts under threat from private sector.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

If PSU are sold on public offering to private sector as ToT JV or simply as scrap even then the damage they have caused will be irrecoverable. Unlike ISRO who actually want to achieve a noble goal and work hard to make the country proud these chaps are bigger saboteurs than external threats.

That is juvenile jargon. Only solution is lobbying and shaming them to cooperate with private sector. This has seen moderate success with Naval Yards like GRSE and CSL who have cleaned up their acts under threat from private sector.

What did I say and what are you saying? Do private sector run on magic? The problem is never about PSU but clearance from the govt itself. Govt intentionally does not clear funds and files which leave the PSUs with no choice. Private sector would have gone bankrupt by now. What loss is PSU causing? Without PSU, Indian defence would be like Pakistani defence. Private sector can exist in defence only with govt patronage, not by own merit. So, think before looking at defence to be similar to the civilian sector. In defence, govt is the sole buyer and even exports are done by govt consent. So, defence is governed by govt alone.

 

[lexa]

SH has nowhere near tech as Rafale. Even radar is about the same.

In some aspects SH block 3 is good as rafale, but in general it's a fighter at lower level than rafale, but with the same price

 

[vampyrbladez]

What did I say and what are you saying? Do private sector run on magic? The problem is never about PSU but clearance from the govt itself. Govt intentionally does not clear funds and files which leave the PSUs with no choice. Private sector would have gone bankrupt by now. What loss is PSU causing? Without PSU, Indian defence would be like Pakistani defence. Private sector can exist in defence only with govt patronage, not by own merit. So, think before looking at defence to be similar to the civilian sector. In defence, govt is the sole buyer and even exports are done by govt consent. So, defence is governed by govt alone.

Private sector has efficiency and order. PSU has employment guarantee. Without any risk of losing job or performance based pay scale, PSU loses out in delivering quality equipment to OEM. Cost overruns, delays and performance and design short sight is common in their product unless JV are used. Even then they manage to screw up in ToT absorption and delivery timelines.

Here is a case of HAL losing business with US firms due to 'poor quality'. All the business shifted to private firms.

https://www.financialexpress.com/economy/boeing-ends-contract-with-hal/110345/

US defence major Boeing has terminated a contract with state-run Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) for component supplies to the former’s war and commercial planes being inducted into the Indian Navy.

Boeing’s decision came after repeated reminders to HAL about its “poor quality” of production, sources said, adding that the US company’s move underlined the need for better strategies by India’s policymakers in order to bolster the order books of defence PSUs.

Boeing has over the last few years shifted its component sourcing requirements in India to private companies — Tata Group, Dynamatic Technologies, Rossell Techsys and others.

 

[WolfPack86]

Some days ago @nsitharaman RM, India visited the Argenteuil factory with Éric Trappier, CEO of @Dassault_OnAir #France

 

[WolfPack86]

Start your morning with an amazing image released by @Dassault_OnAir Dassault Rafale for @IAF_MCC being manufactured

 

[BON PLAN]

do you have any proof to back up your claim or you are just throwing your baseless guesses?

LOL.
1) First flight is officially annouced for 2019.
2) We have seen, in France, some new jobs created for Kaveri in Safran
3) The variable flow tech of the Kaveri may be interesting for Safran. A nice begin to built a strong relationship.

 

[BON PLAN]

I think it will not be baseless rumours but only his speculation.

My friend Smestarz...
Always late, always wrong.

 

[BON PLAN]

Start your morning with an amazing image released by @Dassault_OnAir Dassault Rafale for @IAF_MCC being manufactured

This picture shows the 4th Rafale built for India.
The first one was sheduled to fly in september or october. Except if Smestarz has some others fresh and first hand news (as usual )

 

[BON PLAN]

Gripen ( E model in this case. A plane not FOC...) seems untouchable.

And Rafale, as already said, is slighly better than EF.

Not to speak of F35...

 

[Immanuel]

UPA ordered it in 2010 but only 2 has been delivered so far. Also, Tejas MK2 is coming in 2025. It will have Kaveri engine by then. No need for F414 engines.

Kaveri won't go anywhere near MK-2 till it is actually tested fully on several of the LCA LSPs. Flight testing of brand new engine on a new platform takes time and IAF won't put this engine on the MK-1A let alone the MK-2 till it is certified (this can take anywhere between 3-5 years). Engines need thousands of hours of tests on the ground before they go anywhere near an aircraft and with LCA there is absolute caution due to it's stellar flying record.

Also there is no indication whatsoever that the GE contract for 99 engines plus spares will be cancelled, several engines have already been delivered to India. Plus, Kaveri K-9 doesn't match need of the LCA mk-2. Kaveri K-10 engine is still on the drawing board and will be several years before it's cleared for LCA.

For now and LCA MK-1/ MK-1A will be powered by GE F404 engines and MK-2 with F414. Kaveri can at best replace those engines during MLU.

 

[Immanuel]

SH has nowhere near tech as Rafale. Even radar is about the same.

Please, a war mode F-18 Growler would run circles around the Rafale in all areas, specially avionics, weapons choice, operational costs and overall reliability