Know Your 'Rafale'

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Regardless if USN doesn't put EPE on immediate upgrades, funding has already been allocated for it in previous years and Kuwait will get them and they are available in timeline for Indian deliveries.

India is not buying any of the EPE. India is making its own engines. Also, no progress of EPE has been reported so far

 

[Immanuel]

India is not buying any of the EPE. India is making its own engines. Also, no progress of EPE has been reported so far

I am saying F414EPE is available for India for both IAF & IN and will certainly find come if Block 3 SH is ordered. Currently India has 99 F414 INS6 on order for LCA Tejas MK-2

 

[vampyrbladez]

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...ock-iii-super-hornet-could-crush-chinas-25964
Boeing is well into the development of the new Block III Super Hornet, Gillian said. The production of the first six new build Block III jets is expected to start in fiscal year 2018 with production transitioning fully onto the new variant in 2019. The fleet should start receiving their first operational Block III aircraft in 2020 and the jet should deploy onboard a carrier by 2022, Gillian said.

Meanwhile, starting in 2022, Boeing will start to upgrade older Block II aircraft into the Block III configuration as part of the Navy’s Service Life Modification program. Eventually, the entire Navy Super Hornet fleet will be brought up to the Block III standard. Altogether, the Navy intends to modify more than 500 Block II Super Hornets into the Block III configuration and build 116 new Block III aircraft by 2024, however, the fleet could be operating a mix of Block II and III aircraft for quite some time into the 2020s given the program’s ambitious schedule. Together with the Lockheed Martin F-35C, the Block III Super Hornet will remain the backbone of the Navy’s frontline strike fighter fleet for decades to come.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...ock-iii-super-hornet-could-crush-chinas-25964

Not sure if this source is acceptable...

There is no mention of EPE. Without them SH cannot even compare to F 15E let alone Rafale.

 

[vampyrbladez]

India is not buying any of the EPE. India is making its own engines. Also, no progress of EPE has been reported so far

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx EPE engines are not part of BLK III upgrade unless buyer pays out of their own pocket for R&D. USN is NOT buying any BLK III with EPE despite being in country of OEM.

And India doesnt make it's own engines. We bought F414 for Tejas Mk 2 of no.s 99.
Mod: Edited

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx EPE engines are not part of BLK III upgrade unless buyer pays out of their own pocket for R&D. USN is NOT buying any BLK III with EPE despite being in country of OEM.

And India doesnt make it's own engines. We bought F414 for Tejas Mk 2 of no.s 99.

UPA ordered it in 2010 but only 2 has been delivered so far. Also, Tejas MK2 is coming in 2025. It will have Kaveri engine by then. No need for F414 engines.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Kaveri can't do more than 60 Kn tops even though it's rated at 83 Kn. F 414 has 98 Kn rated. UPA if it had 1 iota of concern of domestic fighter production wouldn't have thrown everything at HAL's feet. Even Soviets had Kamov, Antonov, Mikoyan, Sukhoi, etc as design bureaus. We have ADA and HAL with the latter as a manufacturer. TATA, DRAL, KALYAN, ADANI, I don't care which one but we desperately need private players in aerospace.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Kaveri has dry thrust at 61kN. Dry thrust of F414 is 59kN. Kaveri will be the choice engine for Tejas plane, not F414.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx HAL is not filled with traitors or incompetents. UPA sabotaged the Tejas and Kaveri project by deliberately cutting funds. When GTRE chief Mohana Rao started challenging, he was arrested on flimsy ground and shifted away. Just because something is a govt industry does not mean it is useless. China and Russia have risen up with the help of state run industries only. Even USA private industry is funded by the govt for its R&D and are private only in name-sake.

The situation is bad because UPA govt sabotaged defence intentionally, not because of govt PSU underperforming. Every defence activity must be funded by govt itself, not by private money. If govt is bad, defence will go bad. If govt is good, defence will be good. Blaming the PSUs for the high handed behaviour of govt is meaningless. It is not PSU but UPA that is responsible for the delays.

Mod: Poor language, edited.

 

[BON PLAN]

About Kaveri : Time is near when the real Safran help will be released...
We just have to wait some months.
2019 & 2020 will be great years for Kaveri (and probably for Rafale).

 

[darshan978]

About Kaveri : Time is near when the real Safran help will be released...
We just have to wait some months.
2019 & 2020 will be great years for Kaveri (and probably for Rafale).

do you have any proof to back up your claim or you are just throwing your baseless guesses?

 

[vampyrbladez]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Kaveri has dry thrust at 61kN. Dry thrust of F414 is 59kN. Kaveri will be the choice engine for Tejas plane, not F414.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. HAL is not filled with traitors or incompetents. UPA sabotaged the Tejas and Kaveri project by deliberately cutting funds. When GTRE chief Mohana Rao started challenging, he was arrested on flimsy ground and shifted away. Just because something is a govt industry does not mean it is useless. China and Russia have risen up with the help of state run industries only. Even USA private industry is funded by the govt for its R&D and are private only in name-sake.

The situation is bad because UPA govt sabotaged defence intentionally, not because of govt PSU underperforming. Every defence activity must be funded by govt itself, not by private money. If govt is bad, defence will go bad. If govt is good, defence will be good. Blaming the PSUs for the high handed behaviour of govt is meaningless. It is not PSU but UPA that is responsible for the delays

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Kaveri GTRE specs are as below:

Kaveri-Special Characteristics Air-mass flow : 78 kg/s By-pass ratio : 0.16 Overall pressure ratio : 21.5 Turbine entry temperature : 1487-1700 K Maximum dry thrust : 52 kN (5302 kg) Maximum dry SFC : 0.78 kg/hr/kg After burner maximum power thrust : 81 kN (8260 kg) After burner maximum power SFC : 2.03 kg/hr/kg Thrust-to-weight ratio : 7.8 Application : Indian LCA

“In recent times, the engine has been able to produce thrust of 70-75 Kilo Newton but what the IAF and other stake-holders desire is power between 90—95 KN.

https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/t...neration-fighter-aircraft/article15534105.ece

The irony with this engine is that the Snecma Engine core in M88 engines used in Rafale will be used in this GTRE model.

http://idrw.org/how-90kn-kaveri-and-125kn-kaveri-engine-projects-will-be-game-changer-for-india/

http://idrw.org/kaveri-engine-soon-to-head-for-high-altitude-tests/

Regarding PSU in our country, they have an abysmal track record. In every single defence programme, delays and cost escalations have become the norm and not the exception. Quality Assurance to user is non - existent and by the time, handover is complete, technology is outdated and FOC is pushed further ahead.

While DRDO has always showcased LCA, christened Tejas, as an indigenously-developed aircraft and the indigenous content of the LCA was estimated by ADA to be 70 per cent, the CAG said it "actually worked out to about 35 per cent" as of January this year.

Systems such as Kaveri engine, Multi-Mode Radar, Radome, Multi-Functional Display System and Flight Control System Actuators taken up for indigenous development could not be developed successfully, resulting in LCA's continued dependence.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...eet-iaf-requirements/articleshow/47204118.cms

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2...sed-DRDO-mishandling-of-AEW-CS-programme.html

That is why you require private industry. Even in China where PSUs are the dominant force, they have taken intensive structural changes and have more intensive and extensive management practices. UPA was the death blow to domestic industry and facts underline this narrative.

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/nation/story/20181029-a-political-hal-storm-1370448-2018-10-20

There is, however, no disputing the fact that HAL in its present form is not fit for the purpose, a fact that has been hinted at by multiple CAG reports lambasting the PSU for inefficiency and delays. Essentially, our inefficient government model is bad news, says Rear Admiral Sudhir Pillai, former Flag Officer, Naval Aviation. HAL needs to do what the China has provided for its ship-building industry, competition, corporate management and independent oversight by regulators, especially in Hong Kong.

Even communist Russia, with its multiple aircraft bureaux, Sukhoi, Mikoyan and Kamov, recognised that.

Mod: Poor language, edited.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Kaveri GTRE specs are as below:

Kaveri-Special Characteristics Air-mass flow : 78 kg/s By-pass ratio : 0.16 Overall pressure ratio : 21.5 Turbine entry temperature : 1487-1700 K Maximum dry thrust : 52 kN (5302 kg) Maximum dry SFC : 0.78 kg/hr/kg After burner maximum power thrust : 81 kN (8260 kg) After burner maximum power SFC : 2.03 kg/hr/kg Thrust-to-weight ratio : 7.8 Application : Indian LCA



https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/t...neration-fighter-aircraft/article15534105.ece

The irony with this engine is that the Snecma Engine core in M88 engines used in Rafale will be used in this GTRE model.

http://idrw.org/how-90kn-kaveri-and-125kn-kaveri-engine-projects-will-be-game-changer-for-india/

http://idrw.org/kaveri-engine-soon-to-head-for-high-altitude-tests/

Regarding PSU in our country, they have an abysmal track record. In every single defence programme, delays and cost escalations have become the norm and not the exception. Quality Assurance to user is non - existent and by the time, handover is complete, technology is outdated and FOC is pushed further ahead.



https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...eet-iaf-requirements/articleshow/47204118.cms

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2...sed-DRDO-mishandling-of-AEW-CS-programme.html

That is why you require private industry. Even in China where PSUs are the dominant force, they have taken intensive structural changes and have more intensive and extensive management practices. UPA was the death blow to domestic industry and facts underline this narrative.

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/nation/story/20181029-a-political-hal-storm-1370448-2018-10-20

First answer why kaveri has 78kgs air flow whili F414 haw 77kgs? Also, show me one engine which has bypass of 0.16.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Anyways, Kaveri is flat rated and variable cycle engine. The thrust you are showing is flat rated, not peak maximum thrust.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Mod: Poor language, edited.

 

[vampyrbladez]

First answer why kaveri has 78kgs air flow whili F414 haw 77kgs? Also, show me one engine which has bypass of 0.16.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Anyways, Kaveri is flat rated and variable cycle engine. The thrust you are showing is flat rated, not peak maximum thrust.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The bypass ratio (BPR) of a turbofan engine is the ratio between the mass flow rate of the bypass stream to the mass flow rate entering the core. A 10:1 bypass ratio, for example, means that 10 kg of air passes through the bypass duct for every 1 kg of air passing through the core.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F414#Performance

What is a 0.16 bypass ratio? Can you explain? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Kaveri has been able to push 75 Kn only as a lot of factors go into engine construction. Blade fan crystal technology, alloys used, inlet airflow geometry, etc go a long way into determining engine performance. To boost performance Safran is actually giving Snecma core of M88 engines. If designing a fighter engine was this easy, PLAAF wouldn't be using AL 31FN engines for their J 10, J 11, J 15, etc.

https://defenceupdate.in/breakthrough-for-kaveri-engine-clears-audit-for-aircraft-integration/

Mod: Poor language, edited

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F414#Performance

What is a 0.16 bypass ratio? Can you explain? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Kaveri has been able to push 75 Kn only as a lot of factors go into engine construction. Blade fan crystal technology, alloys used, inlet airflow geometry, etc go a long way into determining engine performance. To boost performance Safran is actually giving Snecma core of M88 engines. If designing a fighter engine was this easy, PLAAF wouldn't be using AL 31FN engines for their J 10, J 11, J 15, etc.

https://defenceupdate.in/breakthrough-for-kaveri-engine-clears-audit-for-aircraft-integration/

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx this is from the very article you quoted above:

According to information provided by DRDO in it’s Anual Report for 2017, Five Kaveri engine prototypes K5, K6, K7, K8, and K9 were tested for about 145 hours in total in 2017 during which some critical and several tests like a transient test from idle to max reheat conditions were carried out for the first time successfully .

The Kaveri project – which was abandoned in 2014 as it did not meet the power requirements of the Air Force – is being revived with French help for use on both the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and a new unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV) project.

Under the terms of the partnership finalised late last year, Snecma is working to modify, certify and integrate the Kaveri on a Light Combat Aircraft airframe before 2020. A later phase in the partnership will involve modifications on the Kaveri for a twin configuration on India’s AMCA fifth generation fighter concept and an altered non-reheat version for the Ghatak UCAV. It is not clear if the Snecma partnership will stretch to the concept Manik mini-turbofan being developed for UAVs and cruise missiles. One of the Kaveri specimens was on display at the recent Aero India show.

According to the report submitted, Safran completes technical audit of Kaveri jet engine prototype in France
Report said that the engine had attained sufficient maturity to be integrated with an aircraft for limited envelope flight testing.

DRDO Chief Dr S Christopher in 2017 had said that LCA-Tejas will fly with Indo-French Kaveri engine by 2019 Aero India
Kaveri engine reportedly will be able to generate 88.9 kN to 99 kN of Thrust with afterburner .


It is also planned to use an upgraded version of Kaveri to meet the needs of the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)

This implies that the Kaveri turbofan should be upgraded to generate 110-kN wet and 75-kN dry thrust. But then an engine of this capability will need to incorporate single crystal blade technology, integrated rotor disk and blades and super alloys of nickel and cobalt. Kaveri engine in its present form uses directionally solidified blade technology which is rather an old hat. The 20-tonne class AMCA designed for stealth features and super cruise capability is planned to be powered by two GTX Kaveri engines. Significantly, the Kaveri engine has been custom built to operate in the demanding Indian environment that ranges from the hot desert to the freezing mountain heights.

Kaveri Engine For SU-30MKI


AL-31F engines on Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jets will save India from the exorbitant amount of money which India needs to pay to Russia for Transfer of Technology license agreement for developing AL-31F engines in India and also to remove the problematic engine it self which keeps the operational availability of the entire Sukhoi-30MKI fleet lower than 65% in Indian air force.

It was in 2011 that Kaveri got 75kN thrust. This is 2018.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Also, Indian scientists are not xxxxxx that they won't be able to do in 2018 what others did in 1990. Congress sabotaging the project is not same as lack of Indian capability of designing engine. Also, China has already made its own engine back in 2010. It does not import any engine from Russia. China may have reverse engineered Russian engines or has made their own ones. WS10, WS13 are two engines of CHina

Mod: Poor language, edited.

 

[vampyrbladez]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx this is from the very article you quoted above:

It was in 2011 that Kaveri got 75kN thrust. This is 2018. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Also, Indian scientists are not morons that they won't be able to do in 2018 what others did in 1990. Congress sabotaging the project is not same as lack of Indian capability of designing engine. Also, China has already made its own engine back in 2010. It does not import any engine from Russia. China may have reverse engineered Russian engines or has made their own ones. WS10, WS13 are two engines of CHina

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

There has been no proof Kaveri has shown any improvement in performance. Infact a speculated 90 Kn thrust performance is wholly dependent on Safran providing tech as part of side agreement to Rafale deal. Audit was cleared in 2018, so long road ahead to verification.

BTW China is paying exorbitant price in life, limb and treasure for AL31FN engines. WS 10B and WS 13 don't have enough hours in them not to mention technological maturity.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/chine...t-in-crash-near-site-of-wargames_2696764.html

https://stopru.com/a-clone-of-su-33-chinese-production-was-found-better-than-russian-fighter/12821/

https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.blogspot.com/2017/02/russia-may-agree-to-transfer-technology.html

Mod: Poor language, edited

 

[smestarz]

I think it will not be baseless rumours but only his speculation.

do you have any proof to back up your claim or you are just throwing your baseless guesses?

 

[vampyrbladez]

Mod: Post deleted

Elaborate? I am certainly not clairvoyant.

 

[WolfPack86]

At all key decisions and differences during the #Rafale deal negotiations, a nod came from the top - through the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS).

 

[WolfPack86]

Records show CCS approval to key Rafale decisions

 

[Compersion]

On this forum, as one some others forums, the final Qty was going from 0 (@smestarz, @Immanuel ) to 250.

Now the minimum figure is 36
My opinion : At least this figure will be doubled, because the cost of indigenisation is high just for 36. So I think a minimum of 72.
After it will be mainly political. pressure from USA? India agree or not to depend from USA? Is it good to have the same fighter in IN and IAF ?
The max figure may be 36 + 114 + option of MMRCA2 (I don't remember how many) for IAF and 57 for Navy. = 207+option

About the fact that Dassault Struggle for life, It was in 2010 nearly, with the slow down of the production rate of Rafale for the sole customer : France, and the crisis that affects the businee jets market.
It's not the first time DA has to face a crisis, but this is a rich company, with old and faithfull shareholders : they always adapt to the weather. Don't worry for Dassault.

Apologies not replying the earlier.

My submission is more on the independent policies and policy of France and the nation of France.

I refer to the same:

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2...pute-with-russia-settled-france-eyes-exports/

and link it to

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprise...s-inquietudes-de-l-armee-de-l-air-482410.html

https://www.reuters.com/article/fra...rafale-fighter-jet-deal-idUSL5N0XR2QJ20150430

When someones at a moment of looking for survival and now is unveiling new gen fighters.

Before the deals of Egypt and Qatar it was only India. Why Egypt and Qatar came in? Why France delisted from Russia "after" signing the agreement?

The earlier news items I leave it to the imagination. A strong body also has a strong mind (sometimes even motivated by close ...). A stronger and deeper french and india connection is good for ... (after reading and hearing a lot i somehow think that is known by the knowns that need to know and I am not too worried.)

my observation is clearly on a sukhoi 30mki type relationship with france where we buy off the shelf and later make with full tot. the russians did it at a time of weakness (but came out strong). the full tot will be perhaps be a more impoved and evolved connect. the deal is not only about planes its a "relationship".

I even wanted to link the versailles treaty to this post where the others (not bharat) want to treat and keep dictating the french like it is being used like a condom. this is not about the beauty of a company only.

Dont blame India and look at the discomfort look at your self-worth. Standing up isn't always in one go but stand up you must. Viva la France.

 

[Virendra]

Members,

It is a pain to go through posts of adults and selectively curate filthy content. Instead of swinging a thick hammer of en-masse post deletion and bans.
Please don't force the Staff to go that way.
If you find yourself unable to post without poor language and personal attacks.
Report what you deem inappropriate and suspend your posting till you regain calm and emotional regulation.
Friendly warning.

Regards,
Virendra

 

[vampyrbladez]

Apologies not replying the earlier.

My submission is more on the independent policies and policy of France and the nation of France.

I refer to the same:

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2...pute-with-russia-settled-france-eyes-exports/

and link it to

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprise...s-inquietudes-de-l-armee-de-l-air-482410.html

https://www.reuters.com/article/fra...rafale-fighter-jet-deal-idUSL5N0XR2QJ20150430

When someones at a moment of looking for survival and now is unveiling new gen fighters.

Before the deals of Egypt and Qatar it was only India. Why Egypt and Qatar came in? Why France delisted from Russia "after" signing the agreement?

The earlier news items I leave it to the imagination. A strong body also has a strong mind (sometimes even motivated by close ...). A stronger and deeper french and india connection is good for ... (after reading and hearing a lot i somehow think that is known by the knowns that need to know and I am not too worried.)

my observation is clearly on a sukhoi 30mki type relationship with france where we buy off the shelf and later make with full tot. the russians did it at a time of weakness (but came out strong). the full tot will be perhaps be a more impoved and evolved connect. the deal is not only about planes its a "relationship".

I even wanted to link the versailles treaty to this post where the others (not bharat) want to treat and keep dictating the french like it is being used like a condom. this is not about the beauty of a company only.

Dont blame India and look at the discomfort look at your self-worth. Standing up isn't always in one go but stand up you must. Viva la France.

I have been screaming hoarse about this very fact. No country customizes their buy if only 36 is final no. This is like buying Su 30M and then buying Su 30MKI with ToT.