Know Your 'Rafale'

[vampyrbladez]

LOL when presented with Facts you are talking of some other crap?
I remember your argument was that Rafale was L1 fair and square, where did that argument go?

Miscelleanous has been the way that countries like France and Russia have been shortchanging us and we have been allowing it thanks to the illiterate "dynasty"

Now due to internet most things are in public domain, and it will become difficult for countries that were short changing us to do so..
Its funny that when proven that Dassault tried to short change us you take it as an acceptable practice?

Lets understand few things, Firstly with the way Dassault put the financial bid and with lot of "miscelleanous" items (the EADS did not do that mind you) Dassault managed to circumvent and was declared L1. The article clarifies everything about this "miscellaneous items" and how if these were actually priced, then Dassault would be L2.

No where did IAF or GoI suggest about Captor E radar and this is a fact..So your defence does sound much like Raga blabbering from one point to another even if the point is proven to him. Good luck

L1 in Rafale was chosen as per DPP 2013 as of 2014. Eurofighter made a 20% lower bid AFTER L1 selection around 2015. This is for the 126 MMRCA.

Rafale asks for "miscellaneous" mods to Rafale and jacks price. Thus compared to L1 estimates it is now more expensive than DPP 2013 L1 price quoted. Bear in mind, after sales negotiation is a common tool used in all defence deals. This is used to get better after sales service, offsets, etc.

If Eurofighter was L1, then they would engage in same tactics. This is how a MiC works and tries to short change you if you have no local partners or workshare agreement. Even then R&D costs carried on after development are fostered on you. Russians make us buy entire titanium blocks for screws and bolts in this way.

http://idrw.org/why-sukhoi-30mki-procurement-has-been-dubbed-as-mistake/

Captor E AESA unavailability was a major thorn in IAF during selection procedure. A supermaneuverable fighter like EF 2000 has NO AESA RADAR even more than decades after first flight! By recent reports that has been severely delayed. Kuwait has been suckered into paying R&D on it when all partners are gobbling up F 35A/B.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...-high-risk”-of-missing-delivery-deadline.html

 

[vampyrbladez]

Most of our navy assets are constantly tracking and keeping tab on almost all Chinese and pakistani submarines
Does it sound funny? Which subs are the French tracking? Iraqi? Irani?

If you cut down on preparedness, you will get hit in the long term like German Navy has been.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...r-of-ex-liberian-tankers-stuck-broken-in-port

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/germanys-navy-dead-26566

https://www.rt.com/news/439948-german-frigate-delay-fault/

P.S: Please move discussion to appropriate thread.
Mod: P.S. : Please use appropriate language. Post edited.

 

[lexa]

Most of our navy assets are constantly tracking and keeping tab on almost all Chinese and pakistani submarines
Does it sound funny? Which subs are the French tracking? Iraqi? Irani?

https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/weaknesses-of-indian-navy.81039/page-3#post-1459423

 

[lexa]

BTW how long does Rafale super cruise? Say its flying for 6 hours flight,would it super cruise for say 5.40 hours? just asking out of curiosity.

I don't understand the question. Indeed supercruise it's rarely a necessary thing. Generally it's 20-30 min max. 6 hours flight possible with refueling only

 

[vampyrbladez]

I don't understand the question. Indeed supercruise it's rarely a necessary thing. Generally it's 20-30 min max. 6 hours flight possible with refueling only

Generally it is to increase range and flight time. Even a 10% increase in range can positively affect sortie rate.

 

[ezsasa]

Oye!!! rafale experts did you know this?
========

 

[vampyrbladez]

Oye!!! rafale experts did you know this?
========

Dude, I'M CONTEMPLATING SUICIDE after this! WTF?

 

[ezsasa]

Dude, I'M CONTEMPLATING SUICIDE after this! WTF?

the quality of polity in the country.......

 

[BON PLAN]

Your explanations doesn't matter, facts do and we have multiple officials from 2013 onwards stating the same, that Dassault didn't complied to the RFP!




The document is written in the context of the Reliance JV, you can't ignore that just because that sentence only says counterpart and not Reliance by name.

Multiple officials .... You can't made 100% people happy. At least some were happy with Rafale : they inked a first contract.

Context ? You understand the french langage so nice that you can detect a context ? Sure not my friend. Sure not.

 

[BON PLAN]

You are right on high investments (wrong on anything else ), which is one reason why the deal was so bad, but that also leaves the possibility of 36 additional once, since we invested in the infrastructure for them.
However, IAF stated that last year already and that their priority is to make up numbers first => MMRCA deal.

With the current funding situation of the MoD/IAF it gets clear, that costs will be an issue for any additional procurement.

And the price of the Rafale is well known : 90 - 95 € millions each. In a F3R indianised version (already paid)
A SH is said to cost 85$ millions. Add the cost of indian special customization. Are the US of Trump OK to give you the sensible datas so as to integrate ASTRA ?

 

[BON PLAN]

The Block 3 SH beats Rafale in weapon loads too, thanks to the CFTs. It now has up to 6 weapon stations for A2G weapons, while carrying CFTs + centerline fuel tank.
Rafale with similar fuel, has only up to 3 weapon stations for A2G weapons.

It's main advantage for the navy, however remains suitability to our carriers, because of folding wings.

Rafales advantages on the other side are

- flight performance
- EW
- A2A weapons
- cruise missile capability, since it's doubtful that the US will provide us with such weapons

How many SH are flying with CFT ? It's a marketing proposal, not more yet.
Rafale also can have CFT. Already flight tested. But no customer want it because the plane has enough range without, it's as clear as that.
Same load? NO. SH is limited to 8Tons including fuel, when rafale is up to 9.5T.

The main asset of the US products are the range of weapons : the deeper possible. But on the other side they remain under a US strong supervision (ask Egypt or UAE).

 

[BON PLAN]

Well every aircraft has it's advantages in disadvantages. SH beats Rafale on price, affordability, reliability, recurring costs, helmets, radar, new displays, stealth pods, weapons choice, datalinks while Rafale beats SH on range, useful payload, some part of the evelope & ability to deploy Meteor. Rafale's overall advantage over the SH is basically none especially when block 3 comes into play.

Price & affordability : OK.
Reliability ? I don't think so. All the Dassault products, for air forces and business are known to be highly reliable.
Recuuring costs : OK.
Helmet : No more. Qatar jets are helmet equipped.
Radar ? the SH one is bigger, but its RCS also, so.... But probably better in SH indeed.
displays? It's not a toy !
Stealth pods : Not ready. And Rafale team can do the same.
Weapons choice : Yes, all US products are better then.

Block 3 for SH : on study. Ready when ?
Rafale F3R standard is over. F4 will come in 2023.

So for now you have to campare a SH block 2 with Rafale F3R

 

[Immanuel]

Price & affordability : OK.
Reliability ? I don't think so. All the Dassault products, for air forces and business are known to be highly reliable.
Recuuring costs : OK.
Helmet : No more. Qatar jets are helmet equipped.
Radar ? the SH one is bigger, but its RCS also, so.... But probably better in SH indeed.
displays? It's not a toy !
Stealth pods : Not ready. And Rafale team can do the same.
Weapons choice : Yes, all US products are better then.

Block 3 for SH : on study. Ready when ?
Rafale F3R standard is over. F4 will come in 2023.

So for now you have to campare a SH block 2 with Rafale F3R

Block 3 SH will have better RCS than the Rafale, combine that with Stealth pods Rafale won't be able to match, the current Block 2's RCS isn't far off from the Rafale. Add any kind of loads all these fighters light up.

The SH has flown many more hours, over a far bigger fleet and in some of the harshest conditions and is known to be one of the most reliable fighters in current active service.

Sealth pods are under testing since 2015 and will be in India's package along side EPE, LPDs, CFTs, Block 2 IRST and much more. All these are well in time for Indian deliveries.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/03/30/us-navy-awards-114m-order-for-new-hornet-engines/

I repeat again, EPE is fully funded since last year, please either post a reliable source or quiet down. The first lot assigned last year is for a few aircraft to receive these new engines for full envelope testing.

The fixed-price contract provides procurement funding for the Lot 20 and Lot 21 full-rate production of 28 F414-GE-400 engines. With 18 percent more thrust and twice the horsepower of the previous model, the engines are capable of producing 22,000 pounds of thrust, according to General Electric.

Ge also has a $630 million contract to upgrade and support over 700 engines which will all end up in EPE configuration by 2023.

http://www.airrecognition.com/index...sd-630-million-contract-for-f414-engines.html

 

[vampyrbladez]

Block 3 SH will have better RCS than the Rafale, combine that with Stealth pods Rafale won't be able to match, the current Block 2's RCS isn't far off from the Rafale. Add any kind of loads all these fighters light up.

The SH has flown many more hours, over a far bigger fleet and in some of the harshest conditions and is known to be one of the most reliable fighters in current active service.

Sealth pods are under testing since 2015 and will be in India's package along side EPE, LPDs, CFTs, Block 2 IRST and much more. All these are well in time for Indian deliveries.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/03/30/us-navy-awards-114m-order-for-new-hornet-engines/

I repeat again, EPE is fully funded since last year, please either post a reliable source or quiet down. The first lot assigned last year is for a few aircraft to receive these new engines for full envelope testing.

The fixed-price contract provides procurement funding for the Lot 20 and Lot 21 full-rate production of 28 F414-GE-400 engines. With 18 percent more thrust and twice the horsepower of the previous model, the engines are capable of producing 22,000 pounds of thrust, according to General Electric.

Ge also has a $630 million contract to upgrade and support over 700 engines which will all end up in EPE configuration by 2023.

http://www.airrecognition.com/index...sd-630-million-contract-for-f414-engines.html

From the article:

General Electric is awarded a $630.5 million firm-fixed-priced, performance-based logistics requirements type contract for repair, replacement and program support of 773 F414 engine components used on the F/A-18 E/F and EA-18G aircraft.

The contract is a maintenance and repair one. No EPE has been funded for new airframes or fleet wide upgrade to BLK III. However a meagre amount of around $30 Mn has been provided in NDAA 2018 (2019 ?).

 

[Immanuel]

From the article:



The contract is a maintenance and repair one. No EPE has been funded for new airframes or fleet wide upgrade to BLK III. However a meagre amount of around $30 Mn has been provided in NDAA 2018 (2019 ?).

Because it's already funded since 2017. Kuwait will get Enhanced engines, delivery of all to be completed 2022. The Repair and replacement contract for 700+ engines would require older engines to be overhauled with new parts from the enhanced engine. All MLU Block 2s will eventually become Block 3s with upgraded engines.

https://www.janes.com/article/78885...grade-with-service-life-modification-contract

https://www.janes.com/article/81380/boeing-contracted-to-build-super-hornet-fighters-for-Kuwait
Boeing has received a USD1.5 billion contract for the production and delivery of 28 F/A-18E/F Super Hornet combat aircraft for Kuwait.

Announced on 27 June, the fixed-price-incentive-firm contract provides for the production and delivery of 22 single-seat F/A-18Es and six twin-seat F/A-18Fs by the end of January 2021.

This award comes some three months after Boeing was awarded USD1.2 billion for long-lead non-recurring engineering required to develop a baseline configuration, and to deliver radar warning receivers and weapons. That earlier contract is expected to be completed in September 2022.

In November 2016 the US State Department approved the sale of up to 40 Super Hornets (32 F/A-18Es and eight F/A-18Fs) for Kuwait, valued at USD10.1 billion (including related equipment and support). These would initially augment the Kuwaiti Air Force’s current 39 Boeing F/A-18C/D Hornets and the 28 yet-to-be delivered Eurofighter Typhoons, before eventually replacing the legacy Hornets.

As revealed in a simulator contract announced earlier in June, the Kuwaiti Super Hornets will be built to the US Navy’s (USN’s) latest Block 3 standard. Taking elements of Boeing’s previously touted International Roadmap and Advanced Super Hornet, the Block 3 will include upgrades to the Raytheon AN/APG-79 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar; an Elbit Systems large area display (LAD) ‘glass’ cockpit and next-generation avionics; an infrared search and track (IRST); ‘shoulder-mounted’ conformal fuel tanks (CFTs); Integrated Defensive Electronic Counter Measures (IDECM); and new General Electric F-414-400 enhanced engines.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Because it's already funded since 2017. Kuwait will get Enhanced engines, delivery of all to be completed 2022. The Repair and replacement contract for 700+ engines would require older engines to be overhauled with new parts from the enhanced engine. All MLU Block 2s will eventually become Block 3s with upgraded engines.

https://www.janes.com/article/78885...grade-with-service-life-modification-contract

https://www.janes.com/article/81380/boeing-contracted-to-build-super-hornet-fighters-for-Kuwait
Boeing has received a USD1.5 billion contract for the production and delivery of 28 F/A-18E/F Super Hornet combat aircraft for Kuwait.

Announced on 27 June, the fixed-price-incentive-firm contract provides for the production and delivery of 22 single-seat F/A-18Es and six twin-seat F/A-18Fs by the end of January 2021.

This award comes some three months after Boeing was awarded USD1.2 billion for long-lead non-recurring engineering required to develop a baseline configuration, and to deliver radar warning receivers and weapons. That earlier contract is expected to be completed in September 2022.

In November 2016 the US State Department approved the sale of up to 40 Super Hornets (32 F/A-18Es and eight F/A-18Fs) for Kuwait, valued at USD10.1 billion (including related equipment and support). These would initially augment the Kuwaiti Air Force’s current 39 Boeing F/A-18C/D Hornets and the 28 yet-to-be delivered Eurofighter Typhoons, before eventually replacing the legacy Hornets.

As revealed in a simulator contract announced earlier in June, the Kuwaiti Super Hornets will be built to the US Navy’s (USN’s) latest Block 3 standard. Taking elements of Boeing’s previously touted International Roadmap and Advanced Super Hornet, the Block 3 will include upgrades to the Raytheon AN/APG-79 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar; an Elbit Systems large area display (LAD) ‘glass’ cockpit and next-generation avionics; an infrared search and track (IRST); ‘shoulder-mounted’ conformal fuel tanks (CFTs); Integrated Defensive Electronic Counter Measures (IDECM); and new General Electric F-414-400 enhanced engines.

From the article about BLK III.

Boeing will also make enhancements to the aircraft’s radar signature, although some of the stealthy features from Block III—such as podded weapons carriage—will not be included, and most improvements will be achieved through new coatings and possibly some minor design alterations in key areas such as the intakes.

Block III will have an improved AESA radar and new cockpit systems, including a 10x19-inch touchscreen cockpit display. The integrated defensive electronic countermeasures suite is to be upgraded, and the Super Hornet will have new connectivity in the form of the Tactical Targeting Networking Technology datalink system from Rockwell Collins. The upgraded Super Hornet will also feature an infrared search and track capability in the shape of Lockheed Martin’s IRST21, which can be carried in the nose of the centerline fuel tank. Last October Boeing contracted Lockheed Martin to develop a Block II version of IRST21, having flown the first version in a Super Hornet tank in 2014.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2018-03-05/boeing-modernize-navy-super-hornets

The conversion you are talking about will be limited to Kuwaiti BLK III Super Hornets and not USN ones.

https://www.janes.com/article/83527...splay-contract-for-super-hornets-and-growlers

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...r-plan-for-the-f-a-18e-f-super-hornets-future

[Unfortunately, new engines for the F/A-18E/F and the EA-18G, another addition that could help build on the added efficiency the CFTs offer, are absent from the Block III program. It remains unclear when and if the Navy might pursue this further upgrade project, which has been under consideration in one form or another since at least 2013.

The Navy did include $15 million for research and development into a Super Hornet engine upgrade in its unfunded priorities list for the 2019 fiscal year. However, this is a wishlist the service sends annually to Congress in the hopes lawmakers will allocate additional funds for various projects.

 

[smestarz]

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...ock-iii-super-hornet-could-crush-chinas-25964
Boeing is well into the development of the new Block III Super Hornet, Gillian said. The production of the first six new build Block III jets is expected to start in fiscal year 2018 with production transitioning fully onto the new variant in 2019. The fleet should start receiving their first operational Block III aircraft in 2020 and the jet should deploy onboard a carrier by 2022, Gillian said.

Meanwhile, starting in 2022, Boeing will start to upgrade older Block II aircraft into the Block III configuration as part of the Navy’s Service Life Modification program. Eventually, the entire Navy Super Hornet fleet will be brought up to the Block III standard. Altogether, the Navy intends to modify more than 500 Block II Super Hornets into the Block III configuration and build 116 new Block III aircraft by 2024, however, the fleet could be operating a mix of Block II and III aircraft for quite some time into the 2020s given the program’s ambitious schedule. Together with the Lockheed Martin F-35C, the Block III Super Hornet will remain the backbone of the Navy’s frontline strike fighter fleet for decades to come.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...ock-iii-super-hornet-could-crush-chinas-25964

Not sure if this source is acceptable...

From the article about BLK III.



https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2018-03-05/boeing-modernize-navy-super-hornets

The conversion you are talking about will be limited to Kuwaiti BLK III Super Hornets and not USN ones.

https://www.janes.com/article/83527...splay-contract-for-super-hornets-and-growlers

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...r-plan-for-the-f-a-18e-f-super-hornets-future

 

[shiphone]

I repeat again, EPE is fully funded since last year, please either post a reliable source or quiet down. The first lot assigned last year is for a few aircraft to receive these new engines for full envelope testing.

The fixed-price contract provides procurement funding for the Lot 20 and Lot 21 full-rate production of 28 F414-GE-400 engines. With 18 percent more thrust and twice the horsepower of the previous model, the engines are capable of producing 22,000 pounds of thrust, according to General Electric.

F414-GE-400 engines= 98KN class = 22000 lbs
F414-GE-400 =/= so called EPE
so called "With 18 percent more thrust" = projected 414EPE's 116KN/26000 lbs

the writer is mixing things...

https://www.geaviation.com/sites/default/files/datasheet-F414-Family.pdf
https://www.geaviation.com/sites/default/files/datasheet-F414-Enhanced.pdf

------------

Ge also has a $630 million contract to upgrade and support over 700 engines which will all end up in EPE configuration by 2023.

http://www.airrecognition.com/index...sd-630-million-contract-for-f414-engines.html

again...this is talking about the current 414's logistic/maintenance contract in USN service. not so called EPE

 

[Immanuel]

Regardless if USN doesn't put EPE on immediate upgrades, funding has already been allocated for it in previous years and Kuwait will get them and they are available in timeline for Indian deliveries.

 

[BON PLAN]

Regardless if USN doesn't put EPE on immediate upgrades, funding has already been allocated for it in previous years and Kuwait will get them and they are available in timeline for Indian deliveries.

May be Rafale will have two 8.3 T M88 in time also.....