Know Your 'Rafale'

[vampyrbladez]

On the point of Su-35

I think you are mixing things
a) Su-30 MKI will be upgraded to super sukhoi status that is another case and try not to mix it here

b) we are talking of 110 planes that India wants to order and the need is
The plane should be excellent in performance, should be cheap to buy use and maintain.

There are no other criteria that it should be French or American

Su-35 is way different than Su-30 MKI. they have similar base but they are different
But then by your logic. The only difference between Mirage 2000 and rafale is engine and planes. right?
So then why order Rafales? by your logic we should be able to upgrade Mirage 2000 to Rafale standards? no?

Point to note is that this is open tender and no weight restrictions, so that does not really go in favour of Rafale. DRAL will be strong only till GoI orders Rafale, if GoI orders any other plane., what will DRAL be doing? Would Dassault still outsource its work in France to DRAL without any more indian order?

HAL can always maintain and overahaul the various planes it makes. What about DRAL? They dont even have a line yet.

So DRALs future only depends IF India orders more Rafales, if it does not .... would Dassault be strong enough to still outsource its work to DrAL? Remember the French unions already have objections

Strawman arguments don't work my friend. Rafales are radically different planes to Mirage 2000.

Su 30MKI and Su 35BM are both derived from Su 37. They share the same based radar, engine, airframe and cockpit.

Su 35 has upgraded engine, radar and cockpit. All customization on MKI can be carried over for Supper Sukhoi.

DRAL started last year and are making nose cones and other parts for falcon jets. More orders of Rafale will come and increase production facility and complexity of operations.

HAL is dead as finally GoI are holding them accountable. Recently 7 HAL officials were arrested for corruption.

 

[vampyrbladez]

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/u-s...ea-18g-growler-aircraft-new-powerful-engines/

EPE is fully funded, first flights early next year with 4 existing aircraft being upgraded to block 3 standards. Kuwait will recover new build aircraft based on the same configuration

Recent NDAA 2018 shows no money other than for future studies. Even Kuwait order is speculation as BLK III has NO MENTION of EPE.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Fair and square?

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ane-was-made-locally/articleshow/65300194.cms

Try reading this aritlcle and then do respond

This guy just destroyed his own argument. Congress IT team should hire me to fact check them before publishing.

One reason for the NDA government’s June 2015 decision to scrap a request for proposal (RFP) for a 126 fighter aircraft deal arrived at under the previous administration was because Dassault Aviation, the L1 or lowest bidder, would have lost that position after taking into account its commercial offer to state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, where some of the aircraft were to be locally manufactured.

Mod: Edited. Inappropriate language

 

[Prashant12]

It's main advantage for the navy, however remains suitability to our carriers, because of folding wings.

With the projected delivery of the indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC) by the Cochin Shipyard where the IAC is being fitted out, scheduled for 2023, the Indian Navy could be eyeing the fifth generation aircraft for it.

Speaking to FE Online on condition of anonymity, a senior officer said that, “By the time the Aircraft carrier is commissioned in the service, worldwide the navies would be flying the fifth generation fighter and not the fourth generation platforms like Boeing’s F-18, the French Rafale or the Swedish Gripen.”

Four vendors including the Dassault Aviation of France `Rafale’, US based Boeing Company’s F-18 Super Hornet, Swedish SAAB’s ` Gripen’ and MiG-29 K of Russia, all responded to the RfI that was sent last year for the 57 aircraft for the Navy. The Indian Navy is already having operational issues due to defects in engines, airframe and fly-by-wire system with the Russian MiG 29 K.


By the time the IAC comes, the US will be going to the 5th generation single engine F-35 A, F-35 B and F-35c versions from the Lockheed Martin for its air force, marines, and navy respectively in the future.

Compared to other navies globally, the US Navy, the Royal Navy, the French, Russian and now even the Chinese PLA-N have fighter fleets built around aircraft carriers, as that helps them to project their power over long-distance from their home bases.

Inking of the COMCASA agreement at the end of the first ever 2+2 India-US Strategic Dialogue, the sale of these machines are not ruled out.

Earlier this year, at a US House Armed Services Committee hearing USPACOM (US Pacific Command) head Admiral Harry Harris Jr. had hinted that some of the platforms India is planning to buy from the US including F-16s, multi-role fighter acquisition program; the F/A-18E for multi-engine, carrier-based fighter purchase; a reorder of 12-15 P-8Is; Sea Guardian UAS; MH-60R multi-role sea-based helicopter; and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter are all supported by the USPACOM.

As reported by FE earlier, the delay in the delivery of the IAC by December 2018 has pushed back the IAC- 2 plan. The IAC-2 is not part of the 2017-19 annual acquisition plans of the Indian Navy. The first indigenous aircraft for the Indian Navy is delayed by 8 years delayed and this leaves the Navy with one operational aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, the 45,000-tonne carrier bought from Russia, which s expected to go in for repairs very soon.

According to the Lockheed Martin’s website: the different variants of the F-35 have similar performance characteristics, and are mainly distinguished by their different basing requirements. Thus, the F-35B and F-35C variants have unique ways to take off and land.

Though the plans for the IAC-2 have been put on back burner, the navy wants it to have a CATOBAR (catapult assisted take-off but arrested recovery) configuration. The IAC under construction has a STOBAR (short take-off but arrested recovery) configuration.

https://www.financialexpress.com/de...on-fighters-for-its-aircraft-carrier/1361059/

 

[ezsasa]

With the projected delivery of the indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC) by the Cochin Shipyard where the IAC is being fitted out, scheduled for 2023, the Indian Navy could be eyeing the fifth generation aircraft for it.

Speaking to FE Online on condition of anonymity, a senior officer said that, “By the time the Aircraft carrier is commissioned in the service, worldwide the navies would be flying the fifth generation fighter and not the fourth generation platforms like Boeing’s F-18, the French Rafale or the Swedish Gripen.”

Four vendors including the Dassault Aviation of France `Rafale’, US based Boeing Company’s F-18 Super Hornet, Swedish SAAB’s ` Gripen’ and MiG-29 K of Russia, all responded to the RfI that was sent last year for the 57 aircraft for the Navy. The Indian Navy is already having operational issues due to defects in engines, airframe and fly-by-wire system with the Russian MiG 29 K.


By the time the IAC comes, the US will be going to the 5th generation single engine F-35 A, F-35 B and F-35c versions from the Lockheed Martin for its air force, marines, and navy respectively in the future.

Compared to other navies globally, the US Navy, the Royal Navy, the French, Russian and now even the Chinese PLA-N have fighter fleets built around aircraft carriers, as that helps them to project their power over long-distance from their home bases.

Inking of the COMCASA agreement at the end of the first ever 2+2 India-US Strategic Dialogue, the sale of these machines are not ruled out.

Earlier this year, at a US House Armed Services Committee hearing USPACOM (US Pacific Command) head Admiral Harry Harris Jr. had hinted that some of the platforms India is planning to buy from the US including F-16s, multi-role fighter acquisition program; the F/A-18E for multi-engine, carrier-based fighter purchase; a reorder of 12-15 P-8Is; Sea Guardian UAS; MH-60R multi-role sea-based helicopter; and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter are all supported by the USPACOM.

As reported by FE earlier, the delay in the delivery of the IAC by December 2018 has pushed back the IAC- 2 plan. The IAC-2 is not part of the 2017-19 annual acquisition plans of the Indian Navy. The first indigenous aircraft for the Indian Navy is delayed by 8 years delayed and this leaves the Navy with one operational aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, the 45,000-tonne carrier bought from Russia, which s expected to go in for repairs very soon.

According to the Lockheed Martin’s website: the different variants of the F-35 have similar performance characteristics, and are mainly distinguished by their different basing requirements. Thus, the F-35B and F-35C variants have unique ways to take off and land.

Though the plans for the IAC-2 have been put on back burner, the navy wants it to have a CATOBAR (catapult assisted take-off but arrested recovery) configuration. The IAC under construction has a STOBAR (short take-off but arrested recovery) configuration.

https://www.financialexpress.com/de...on-fighters-for-its-aircraft-carrier/1361059/

probably with S-400 purchase, F-35 is out of the picture. or rather we will know by next year, if turkey gets F-35 after their S-400 gets delivered.

 

[Sancho]

Su 30MKI and Su 35BM are both derived from Su 37.

Nope Su 35BM came later and is a further upgrade =>

https://www.milavia.net/aircraft/su-35_su-27m/su-35_su-27m.htm

 

[smestarz]

So you did not understand the crux at all, you had a hard on on seeing the word HAL ?

https://thediplomat.com/2017/12/the...ial-threat-to-france-india-defense-relations/

In terms of cost-accounting, some observers have critiqued the criteria used by the Indian Air Force to evaluate competing bids and the 30 year “life cycle” cost accounting method used by India. The cost of the 126 aircraft, including the 18 “fly-away condition” ones, appeared to have been $20 billion as opposed to the original $8 billion earmarked for the acquisition.

The cost-overrun was allegedly caused by the listing of more than 50-60 unpriced items as “miscellaneous,” which is ironically similar to the issue India faced with the 2005 acquisition deal for the French Scorpene submarine, currently being manufactured at the Mazagaon Docks. The Scorpene deal was also subject to allegations of kickbacks involving Abhishek Verma and senior members of the UPA administration, which were recently dismissed by the Delhi High Court due to insufficient evidence.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ane-was-made-locally/articleshow/65300194.cms

One reason for the NDA government’s June 2015 decision to scrap a request for proposal (RFP) for a 126 fighter aircraft deal arrived at under the previous administration was because Dassault Aviation, the L1 or lowest bidder, would have lost that position after taking into account its commercial offer to state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HALNSE 0.59 %), where some of the aircraft were to be locally manufactured.

“By applying a factor of 2.7 on the man hours quoted by Dassault Aviation and EADS, the ratio of Net Present Value (NPV) based total cost of acquisition as on November 2011would have undergone a material change to the extent that Dassault Aviation would have no longer remained L1vendor and would have become L2 vendor,” states the assessment documents on withdrawal of the UPA version of the Rafale deal.

Among the seven reasons cited in internal records for cancelling the UPA’s Rafale deal, one key point was that the Eurofighter would have been more economical to buy and produce in India after calculations done by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) were taken into account.

//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/65300194.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

I really hope and Wish Congress does hire you !!!! LOL you left all the facts aside and just got hard on reading HAL, very similar to what RaGa did hahaha

This guy just destroyed his own argument. Congress IT team should hire me to fact check them before publishing.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

You are the one spouting bullshit like a novice here. I'm just calling you out on your nonsense.

Rafale can supercruise with MBDA MICA with 1,250 liter and 4 missiles, naval version can supercruise at M 1.4 with 6 A2A MBDA MICA.

Su 30MKI cannot supercuise i.e touch M 1.5 ish at any configuration and Su 35BM in airshow configuration can only touch M 1.



https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...-35-fighter-boosted-china-and-indonesia-deals

Here is a nice analysis between EF 2000 and Rafale RCS.



https://defenseissues.net/2015/11/01/dassault-rafale-vs-eurofighter-typhoon/



DRAL is the future of Indian Aviation. HAL is a Soviet era behemoth with stagnant books and lackadaisical attitude towards work.

P.S: Read and provide sources. Newbie motormouths get REKT and then go crying to PDF.

Mica is a small missile. Supercruising with minimum load is not useful. So, stop irritating everyone by claiming useless configuration as special. Supercruise means 1+ MAch, not 1.Mach. Su30 can do supercruise when its fuel tank is low and missiles are small. This is not rocket science.

Rafale has RCS of 1m^2 and that is not significantly less than Su30.

DRAL is future of Indian aviation? Are you smoking some high quality stuff? WHo will make helicopters, avionics, engines etc?

 

[asianobserve]

With all the dizzying back-and-forth discussions about Rafale and the exceptional sales pitch for it by resident advocates, the fundamental question that needs to be answered is why is France the only European operator of Rafale?

 

[lexa]

French navy is not at war, but Indian navy is always in "war like" situation

wow! it's even funnier! How will it look like not in "war like"? 1 week at sea or less per year?

 

[lexa]

Supercruise means 1+ MAch, not 1.Mach.
Su30 can do supercruise when its fuel tank is low and missiles are small. ?

Supercruise means M1.2+. Su30 can't supercruise even being clean. su-35 in clean config can M1.1, but m2000 can the same

 

[vampyrbladez]

Mica is a small missile. Supercruising with minimum load is not useful. So, stop irritating everyone by claiming useless configuration as special. Supercruise means 1+ MAch, not 1.Mach. Su30 can do supercruise when its fuel tank is low and missiles are small. This is not rocket science.

Rafale has RCS of 1m^2 and that is not significantly less than Su30.

DRAL is future of Indian aviation? Are you smoking some high quality stuff? WHo will make helicopters, avionics, engines etc?

MICA is a MRAAM like IRIS T, AIM 9X and Vympel 77R. Has your IT cell even heard of these things? MRAAM are benchmark for measuring kinetic performance in fighter aircraft.

Su 27 class fighters have an RCS of 10 - 15 msq aka same as an F 15C. This makes for significant liabilities in a contested zone where advanced S 400 style AD/AA missiles are available.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm

Supercruise means M 1.5 as per international standards. Even F 35 can do M 1.2 w/o afterburner at certain flight regimes but is not considered for supercruise.

Su 35 has more powerful engines 117S vs Al 31FP (142Kn vs 123Kn) and can do barely M 1.1 so to ask Su 30 MKI to do the same is pure stupidity.

DRAL and other Indian private sector companies are the future. As more local manufacturing increases, complexity of operations will increase and more advanced components will be manufactured.

HAL had to partner with Mahindra and Boeing to promote F 18SH in MMRCA 2.0 as even they know they are useless in aircraft manufacturing. They cannot provide more ToT than Dhruv.

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/nation/story/20181029-a-political-hal-storm-1370448-2018-10-20

P.S: Look at this Congressi ID trying to sniff support here. He has 0 knowledge about defense sector and is trying to derail the thread to save face.

 

[vampyrbladez]

[France entered into an arrangement with UK, Germany, Italy and Spain to produce an agile multi-purpose fighter, the Eurofighter Typhoon. Subsequent disagreements over workshare and differing requirements led to France's pursuit of its own development program.

..............................................

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale

 

[vampyrbladez]

Nope Su 35BM came later and is a further upgrade =>

https://www.milavia.net/aircraft/su-35_su-27m/su-35_su-27m.htm

How is this different from what I said
Su 37 ----} Su 30MKI ---} Su 35BM

 

[vampyrbladez]

So you did not understand the crux at all, you had a hard on on seeing the word HAL ?

https://thediplomat.com/2017/12/the...ial-threat-to-france-india-defense-relations/

In terms of cost-accounting, some observers have critiqued the criteria used by the Indian Air Force to evaluate competing bids and the 30 year “life cycle” cost accounting method used by India. The cost of the 126 aircraft, including the 18 “fly-away condition” ones, appeared to have been $20 billion as opposed to the original $8 billion earmarked for the acquisition.

The cost-overrun was allegedly caused by the listing of more than 50-60 unpriced items as “miscellaneous,” which is ironically similar to the issue India faced with the 2005 acquisition deal for the French Scorpene submarine, currently being manufactured at the Mazagaon Docks. The Scorpene deal was also subject to allegations of kickbacks involving Abhishek Verma and senior members of the UPA administration, which were recently dismissed by the Delhi High Court due to insufficient evidence.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ane-was-made-locally/articleshow/65300194.cms

One reason for the NDA government’s June 2015 decision to scrap a request for proposal (RFP) for a 126 fighter aircraft deal arrived at under the previous administration was because Dassault Aviation, the L1 or lowest bidder, would have lost that position after taking into account its commercial offer to state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HALNSE 0.59 %), where some of the aircraft were to be locally manufactured.

“By applying a factor of 2.7 on the man hours quoted by Dassault Aviation and EADS, the ratio of Net Present Value (NPV) based total cost of acquisition as on November 2011would have undergone a material change to the extent that Dassault Aviation would have no longer remained L1vendor and would have become L2 vendor,” states the assessment documents on withdrawal of the UPA version of the Rafale deal.

Among the seven reasons cited in internal records for cancelling the UPA’s Rafale deal, one key point was that the Eurofighter would have been more economical to buy and produce in India after calculations done by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) were taken into account.

//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/65300194.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

I really hope and Wish Congress does hire you !!!! LOL you left all the facts aside and just got hard on reading HAL, very similar to what RaGa did hahaha

You do realize that Eurofighter has no active AESA radar on the anvil. Captor E is still at least 18 months away and taking into account development charges, your bill would shoot through the roof.

The 'miscalleneous' thing is a common ball breaking tactic in defence field. Even Russia does this to us in after sales and support albeit at a much higher rate. Thinking this is a scam as pappu party had same situation is pure speculation.

The cost of the 126 aircraft, including the 18 “fly-away condition” ones, appeared to have been $20 billion as opposed to the original $8 billion earmarked for the acquisition.[\QUOTE]

Here lies your point of contention. Less bang for more buck. Add to customization by IAF, we have already made the down payment for mods.

Future orders will bring down unit cost even more so.

 

[smestarz]

Most of our navy assets are constantly tracking and keeping tab on almost all Chinese and pakistani submarines
Does it sound funny? Which subs are the French tracking? Iraqi? Irani?

wow! it's even funnier! How will it look like not in "war like"? 1 week at sea or less per year?

 

[smestarz]

BTW how long does Rafale super cruise? Say its flying for 6 hours flight,would it super cruise for say 5.40 hours? just asking out of curiosity.

Supercruise means M1.2+. Su30 can't supercruise even being clean. su-35 in clean config can M1.1, but m2000 can the same

 

[smestarz]

LOL when presented with Facts you are talking of some other crap?
I remember your argument was that Rafale was L1 fair and square, where did that argument go?

Miscelleanous has been the way that countries like France and Russia have been shortchanging us and we have been allowing it thanks to the illiterate "dynasty"

Now due to internet most things are in public domain, and it will become difficult for countries that were short changing us to do so..
Its funny that when proven that Dassault tried to short change us you take it as an acceptable practice?

Lets understand few things, Firstly with the way Dassault put the financial bid and with lot of "miscelleanous" items (the EADS did not do that mind you) Dassault managed to circumvent and was declared L1. The article clarifies everything about this "miscellaneous items" and how if these were actually priced, then Dassault would be L2.

No where did IAF or GoI suggest about Captor E radar and this is a fact..So your defence does sound much like Raga blabbering from one point to another even if the point is proven to him. Good luck

You do realize that Eurofighter has no active AESA radar on the anvil. Captor E is still at least 18 months away and taking into account development charges, your bill would shoot through the roof.

The 'miscalleneous' thing is a common ball breaking tactic in defence field. Even Russia does this to us in after sales and support albeit at a much higher rate. Thinking this is a scam as pappu party had same situation is pure speculation.

 

[smestarz]

Su-30 MKI comes from Su-30 MK family which was twin seat trainer version, IAF wanted twin seaters.
Su-30 MK was developed into Su-30 MKI (with Canards) and this was later developed into Su-37 and later Su-30SM which RuAF uses. I think am correct in the facts.
There was another tree of development with super maneuverability without canards and single seater and that developed into Su-35. So Su-35 and Su-37 were at some point being developed together, Su-37 developed into Su-30 SM

How is this different from what I said
Su 37 ----} Su 30MKI ---} Su 35BM

 

[vampyrbladez]

Su-30 MKI comes from Su-30 MK family which was twin seat trainer version, IAF wanted twin seaters.
Su-30 MK was developed into Su-30 MKI (with Canards) and this was later developed into Su-37 and later Su-30SM which RuAF uses. I think am correct in the facts.
There was another tree of development with super maneuverability without canards and single seater and that developed into Su-35. So Su-35 and Su-37 were at some point being developed together, Su-37 developed into Su-30 SM

Su 37 was created as a technology demonstrator to test concepts like TVC,N011 BARS radar, canards and new digital displays for the cockpit while another technology demonstrator under Su 27M project was ongoing. This Su 37 tech demonstrator evolved into Su 30MKI. Su 30MK was a completely different tangent developed from the Su 27PU family for increased range and more powerful engines.

Here is a comparison in size between Su 30MK and Su 30MKI

To sum it up:

Su 27 -----> Su 27PU -----> Su 30M/MK (Range/MFD)
|
| TVC/N011 BARS/Range/MFD
|
V
Su 27M ------> Su 37 ------> Su 30MKI/SM/MKM -------> Su 35BM