Know Your 'Rafale'

[vampyrbladez]

Rafale deal is not because of Rafale's superiority or "CRITICAL" need but because of ToT. Doval recently has made a statement that all defence deals are done with intent of getting full production technology under this govt.

So we are getting both here with DRAL and new urgently required fighter jets. Why get your panties in a bunch?

 

[Sancho]

After Malaysias decision not to buy new fighters, not being officially considered in Belgium, now another potential order for Rafale seems to be lost.

Update: Switzerland’s Air 2030 plan narrows down options
Reuben F Johnson, Kiev - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
24 October 2018

The Schweizer Luftwaffe (Swiss Air Force) may be limited to purchasing a single-engine fighter as it is the only solution that fits budgetary limitations, it has unofficially emerged after the recent 8-10 October 'Axalp' annual exercise...

Read more here:
https://www.janes.com/article/84023/update-switzerland-s-air-2030-plan-narrows-down-options

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

So we are getting both here with DRAL and new urgently required fighter jets. Why get your panties in a bunch?

What is so urgent about Rafale when India can make Su30? Rafale is same class as Su30 but lighter. There is not much of a difference to call Rafale as urgent needs. Also, it is not just DRAL but the ToT as part of offsets. DRDO got $1.5 billion offset which is pure ToT.

 

[Immanuel]

The Block 3 SH beats Rafale in weapon loads too, thanks to the CFTs. It now has up to 6 weapon stations for A2G weapons, while carrying CFTs + centerline fuel tank.
Rafale with similar fuel, has only up to 3 weapon stations for A2G weapons.

It's main advantage for the navy, however remains suitability to our carriers, because of folding wings.

Rafales advantages on the other side are

- flight performance
- EW
- A2A weapons
- cruise missile capability, since it's doubtful that the US will provide us with such weapons

The SH's flight performance will close the gap with the EPE rolling in. with Next Gen Jammer program the Growler will take the leap, A2A in the timeline of India should anyways lead to ram jet Astra MK-2 by the timelines of delivery & acceptance testing.

The US has sold us Harpoons in the past, SLAM-ER should be available if needed which essentially a cousin. However, for the SH best to apply local weaponry along with existing US weaponry like CBU-105SFW, Paveway 2s, Nirbhay, Garuda and Garuthma glide bombs, guided HSLD etc.

 

[Sancho]

The SH's flight performance will close the gap with the EPE rolling in. with Next Gen Jammer program the Growler will take the leap

The EPE as said before is not funded yet and the NGJ is an external EA pod, not part the SHs EWS. The US legacy fighters fall short wrt to EW capabilities, compared to European fighters. That's why Boeing presented Israeli IR MAWS and LWR as an upgrade option, if a customer wants it.

The US has sold us Harpoons in the past, SLAM-ER should be available if needed which essentially a cousin.

Yes they sold us Harpoon, but SLAMER was so far not on offer, let alone JASSM which would be the counterpart to Scalp.
The F18 offers good variety and load capability for A2G and can be upgraded with Europan A2A weapons (Australia added ASRAAM), but the cruise missile / long range land attack capability might remain an issue. That's why customers like Saudi Arabia, or UAE prefer to add European fighters into their fleet mix too.

 

[vampyrbladez]

What is so urgent about Rafale when India can make Su30? Rafale is same class as Su30 but lighter. There is not much of a difference to call Rafale as urgent needs. Also, it is not just DRAL but the ToT as part of offsets. DRDO got $1.5 billion offset which is pure ToT.

Rafale has lower RCS, better EW (SPECTRA system), AESA radar, Super Maneuverability, Supercruise, SCALP missile compatibility, etc which puts it in a higher tier than Su 30 MKI. MKI is a great air superiority fighter and strike fighter but in contested environments like S 300, S 400 installations it's massive EW signature and RCS make it a liability.

Thus Rafale moves ahead of the pack and designates targets for missiles and cruise missiles which will neutralize threats before the bomb truck Su 30MKIs and Jaguars and Gunslinger A2A Su 30MKI, Rafale, Mig 29UPG and Mirage 2000H move in for the kill!

As per Dassault DRAL gets Rs. 850 Cr as offsets compared to DRDO. The 'scandal' is a desperate attempt before 2019.

P.S: Read a bit before posting as it makes you look stupid.

 

[vampyrbladez]

After Malaysias decision not to buy new fighters, not being officially considered in Belgium, now another potential order for Rafale seems to be lost.



Read more here:
https://www.janes.com/article/84023/update-switzerland-s-air-2030-plan-narrows-down-options

This is double speak for F 35 orders. "Single Engine" aircraft tender for 2030. Pretty obvious right?

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Rafale has lower RCS, better EW (SPECTRA system), AESA radar, Super Maneuverability, Supercruise, SCALP missile compatibility, etc which puts it in a higher tier than Su 30 MKI. MKI is a great air superiority fighter and strike fighter but in contested environments like S 300, S 400 installations it's massive EW signature and RCS make it a liability.

Thus Rafale moves ahead of the pack and designates targets for missiles and cruise missiles which will neutralize threats before the bomb truck Su 30MKIs and Jaguars and Gunslinger A2A Su 30MKI, Rafale, Mig 29UPG and Mirage 2000H move in for the kill!

As per Dassault DRAL gets Rs. 850 Cr as offsets compared to DRDO. The 'scandal' is a desperate attempt before 2019.

P.S: Read a bit before posting as it makes you look stupid.

Spreading fake news does not change reality. Rafale does not have suercruise when in full tank. It is super cruise when it has just 50% tank and light A2A load. Even Su30 can have such supercruise in low fuel tank. Rafale does not have low RCS without its Spectra EW. EW can be used on any plane, even Su30 and there is no reason to say that EW made by India is inferior. Su30 can also be upgraded to AESA and it is being planned in near future. SCALP is a missile and similar missile can be developed for Su30 and has nothing to do with the plane itself.

You speak as if you don't know to fight warfare. In war, mass bombing is needed, not flying in front and bombing 1 target. Air superiority and long endurance of Su30.

DRAL gets 850 crore offset while DRDO gets 9000 crore offset. This is what I said:

Also, it is not just DRAL but the ToT as part of offsets. DRDO got $1.5 billion offset which is pure ToT.

DRAL gets only 10% as much as DRDO is getting. Also, DRAL is not getting full ToT but only training, simple tooling etc. DRAL is mainly an initiative to develop private manufacturing in India, not about ToT.

Stop speaking like a retard with little understanding of topics and having no patience to read what others write

 

[vampyrbladez]

After Malaysias decision not to buy new fighters, not being officially considered in Belgium, now another potential order for Rafale seems to be lost.



Read more here:
https://www.janes.com/article/84023/update-switzerland-s-air-2030-plan-narrows-down-options

This is double speak for F 35 orders. "Single Engine" aircraft tender for 2030. Pretty obvious right?

The SH's flight performance will close the gap with the EPE rolling in. with Next Gen Jammer program the Growler will take the leap, A2A in the timeline of India should anyways lead to ram jet Astra MK-2 by the timelines of delivery & acceptance testing.

The US has sold us Harpoons in the past, SLAM-ER should be available if needed which essentially a cousin. However, for the SH best to apply local weaponry along with existing US weaponry like CBU-105SFW, Paveway 2s, Nirbhay, Garuda and Garuthma glide bombs, guided HSLD etc.

[The Block III Super Hornet aircraft incorporates a host of new capabilities ranging from an upgraded 9000-hour airframe, new range-extending conformal fuel tanks (~120 nautical mile boost in mission radius), radar cross-section improvements, enhanced satellite communications, to a new advanced cockpit display system. But the two most significant developments are the addition of the Distributed Targeting Processor-Networked (DTP-N) computer—which exponentially increases the Super Hornet’s processing power—and the high-speed, high-bandwidth, high-throughput anti-jam Internet Protocol-based Tactical Targeting Network Technology (TTNT) data link.]

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...ock-iii-super-hornet-could-crush-chinas-25964

There is no mention of any EPE as F 35C will anyway get a new engine in early 2020s under AEFT program. Thus Rafale and Eurofighter will safely dominate in the KE maneuverability zone for the foreseeable future.

Unfortunately, new engines for the F/A-18E/F and the EA-18G, another addition that could help build on the added efficiency the CFTs offer, are absent from the Block III program. It remains unclear when and if the Navy might pursue this further upgrade project, which has been under consideration in one form or another since at least 2013.

General Electric has in the past and continues to propose an improved variant of the Super Hornet’s existing F414 engine. Previous “Enhanced Durability” and “Enhanced Performance” concepts featured new fan and compressor components that would variously improve lifespan and performance. The F414-EPE type reportedly offered a 20 percent boost in thrust.

However there was a tiny fund allocation for studies into SH engine upgrade 2019 budget request.

The Navy did include $15 million for research and development into a Super Hornet engine upgrade in its unfunded priorities list for the 2019 fiscal year. However, this is a wishlist the service sends annually to Congress in the hopes lawmakers will allocate additional funds for various projects.

US will sell us anything at exorbitant rates as long as we submit to them geopolitically which we will never do. For Naval 56 fighter tender, SH is perfect as it will remain in service for a long time. There is already offset partners and ecosystem here so no need to grovel to HAL.

https://www.financialexpress.com/de...-electrical-panel-assembly-to-boeing/1357181/

 

[Sancho]

This is double speak for F 35 orders. "Single Engine" aircraft tender for 2030. Pretty obvious right?

F35, F16, or Gripen E. The latter won the initial fighter tender, the earlier is now on offer with reduced procurement costs.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Spreading fake news does not change reality. Rafale does not have suercruise when in full tank. It is super cruise when it has just 50% tank and light A2A load. Even Su30 can have such supercruise in low fuel tank. Rafale does not have low RCS without its Spectra EW. EW can be used on any plane, even Su30 and there is no reason to say that EW made by India is inferior. Su30 can also be upgraded to AESA and it is being planned in near future. SCALP is a missile and similar missile can be developed for Su30 and has nothing to do with the plane itself.

You are the one spouting bullshit like a novice here. I'm just calling you out on your nonsense.

Rafale can supercruise with MBDA MICA with 1,250 liter and 4 missiles, naval version can supercruise at M 1.4 with 6 A2A MBDA MICA.

Su 30MKI cannot supercuise i.e touch M 1.5 ish at any configuration and Su 35BM in airshow configuration can only touch M 1.

The Su-35S has a limited supercruise capability, since it is able to fly supersonically (Mach 1.1) on the “military power” setting (maximum non-reheated thrust) of the NPO Saturn 117S turbofan engines. These each develop 14,500 kg (32,000 pounds) of thrust at full afterburner and 8,800 kg (19,400 pounds) at military power. This feature sets it apart from all other Sukhoi “Flanker” family fighters.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...-35-fighter-boosted-china-and-indonesia-deals

Here is a nice analysis between EF 2000 and Rafale RCS.

In terms of visual signature, Dassault Rafale is 15,3 m long, 5,34 m high with 10,8 m wing span. Typhoon is 15,96 m long, 5,28 m high with 10,95 m wing span. Overall Typhoon has slightly larger visual signature from top and side, while frontal signature should be similar.

When it comes to radar signature, whichever jet uses radar is going to be detected well beyond its own radar range and become a target. SPECTRA will give Rafale firing solution with 1* precision at 200 km, while Typhoon’s DASS achieves same precision at “more than” 100 km, and can be used to cue radar or IRST. Rafale will have RCS of 0,75-1,10 m2 with 6 missiles. Captor-M has range of 185 km vs 3 m2 target, while CAPTOR E has range of 216 km vs 3 m2 target. Thus Typhoon will detect Rafale at 131-144 km with CAPTOR-M or 153-168 km with CAPTOR-E. Engagement range will be 105-115 km with CAPTOR-M or 122-135 km with CAPTOR-E. However, since SPECTRA can reduce RCS by factor of 1,5 to 3, Rafale’s RCS is 0,25-0,75 m2. Consequently, Typhoon will detect Rafale at 99-131 km with CAPTOR-M or 116-153 km with CAPTOR-E; engagement range is 79-105 km with CAPTOR-M and 92-122 km with CAPTOR-E. Typhoon will have RCS of 0,9-1,2 m2 with 6 missiles. RBE-2 has range of 139 km vs 5 m2 target. RBE-2AA has range of 208 km vs 5 m2 target, or 278 km when coupled with SPECTRA. Consequently, Rafale will detect Typhoon at 90-97 km with RBE-2, or 135-195 km with RBE-2AA. Engagement ranges will be 72-78 km with RBE-2 or 108-156 km with RBE-2AA. Rafale’s OSF has range of 80 km vs subsonic head-on target at 20.000 ft. At 30.000 ft, range may be 80-90 km, which means that Rafale will be able to attack Typhoon from 60-70 km. Typhoon’s PIRATE has 90 km range vs subsonic head-on target at unknown altitude, giving it 60-70 km engagement range. That being said, ability of both to attack the opponent will be limited by missile effective range (15-100 km for Meteor, 9-36 km for AIM-120D, 4-16 km for MICA).

https://defenseissues.net/2015/11/01/dassault-rafale-vs-eurofighter-typhoon/

You speak as if you don't know to fight warfare. In war, mass bombing is needed, not flying in front and bombing 1 target. Air superiority and long endurance of Su30.
DRAL gets 850 crore offset while DRDO gets 9000 crore offset. This is what I said:
DRAL gets only 10% as much as DRDO is getting. Also, DRAL is not getting full ToT but only training, simple tooling etc. DRAL is mainly an initiative to develop private manufacturing in India, not about ToT.
Stop speaking like a retard with little understanding of topics and having no patience to read what others write

DRAL is the future of Indian Aviation. HAL is a Soviet era behemoth with stagnant books and lackadaisical attitude towards work.

P.S: Read and provide sources. Newbie motormouths get REKT and then go crying to PDF.

 

[vampyrbladez]

F35, F16, or Gripen E. The latter won the initial fighter tender, the earlier is now on offer with reduced procurement costs.

Swiss are and will be ******s. F 16s are already too old for them and the tender looks to be a sham. Obvious choice is Rent - A - Gripen C/D as Hungary and South Africa seem to be doing.

 

[smestarz]

French navy is not at war, but Indian navy is always in "war like" situation

French SSN are on sea nearly 270 days /year. more than 70% on sea. And only since a deep support agrement between the navy and Naval Group. And this is during peace time as we are not on war.

Indian sub : 1 cruise every 3 month. A cruise is between 3 to 7 weeks (depend of the sub type, of the crew, of the support) . => 12 to 28 weeks /year. 25 to 55% on sea.

So the french sub perf is high. And very high according to indian standard.

 

[smestarz]

LOL if someone does not order Rafales they are ******s? nice analysis.
The Swiss did not have requirement for an aggressive plane. They are small country with all sides secured by neighbours who respect their neutrality. Why would they need an expensive plane?
Swiss can even defend their country using Pilatus ...

Swiss are and will be ******s. F 16s are already too old for them and the tender looks to be a sham. Obvious choice is Rent - A - Gripen C/D as Hungary and South Africa seem to be doing.

 

[Sancho]

They are small country with all sides secured by neighbours who respect their neutrality. Why would they need an expensive plane?

Because any Air Force in the world, wants the best possible equipment, so they dream about F35, EF or Rafale, but they actually don't even need Gripen E.
The interesting part in Switzerland is, that it's the public that has to agree first to a fighter tender and I somehow doubt that they changed their minds on spending billions on fighters, because they also know, that it's not needed.

 

[smestarz]

Are you really sure that F/A-18 dumps loads before landing? As per what I know, it does not do that.
I would prefer a credible link to this.

Easy : rafale max load is 8.5 tons. SH one is 6.5t
SH has to realease to the sea quite all it's non used war loads. Not rafale. See pic :

On this pic 4 x AASM (340kg each), the laser pod (265kg).

The rafale was tested in the same config with 6 AASM and 4 AAM in addition to the pod and empty fuel tanks.
Same with a SCALP of 1500kg under the frame (SH absolutely can't).

 

[smestarz]

Fair and square?

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ane-was-made-locally/articleshow/65300194.cms

Try reading this aritlcle and then do respond

I am quite sure about my sources.



Rafale won L1 pricing fair and square. As per L1 winning bid was Rafale due to lower pricing and more mature tech mainly the Captor E AESA radar on the Eurofighter which even after several years is still undergoing 'fine tuning'. UK and Germany have no plans to buy them and are instead moving on with F 35. That one thing alone stacks development costs on us. Eurofighter tried to lowball the bidding at L1 but this being in violation of DPP 2013 was not considered.



Frankly nobody does as specifications have evolved since DPP 2013 to DPP 2016. Costing could change due to inflation, USD to INR, Oil Prices, working hours, production facilities, etc. Infact if more Rafales were to ordered, their unit cost will be cheaper as we have already made down payment for MKI-isation.



Going by figures we got the cheapest and best deal amongst all other customers with offsets, Make In India, MKI-isation. Even our current 36 fighter stopgap is much cheaper than Qatar even with a customised weapon package and modifications. Our MMRCA 126 jet deal would have broken the bank for future acquisitions.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...se-of-36-rafale-jets/articleshow/47168431.cms

https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-toda...re-french-aircraft-defence-1092384-2017-11-23



Su 30 MKI was designed off Su 37 which in turn made the Su 35BM. The only difference between the two platforms are engine, radar and cockpit. All these features and more will be retrofitted under Super Sukhoi deal. On a per unit cost, it is much cheaper to upgrade existing Su 30 MKI to Su 35BM than order an entirely new airframes as we would have to pay for R&D costs in addition to MKI-isation.

http://idrw.org/indias-super-sukhoi-su-30mki-to-get-su-57-technology/

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2018/08/super-su-30mki-has-taken-shape.html

https://indianexpress.com/article/i...ay-in-sukhoi-rollout-raises-concerns-5381852/

Su 30 MKI infrastructure in India by HAL is already stretched to breaking point. They are unable to fulfil orders for 140 airframes and have to buy ready made fighters from Russia to meet quota. Even by unit cost, Su 30 MKI fighter made in India are more expensive than ones made in Russia. Russia also gouges out India for ToT and after sales support and with poor serviceability of these jets we have a top heavy air force. Thus we need more DRAL like units to have alternatives in private sector that are cheaper and deliver as well.

Su 30 MKI's major weakness is against S 300, S 400 style AA/AD systems that can make deep strike mission packages difficult unless mitigated by other ways. Rafale has a much lower RCS, has advanced RWR based SPECTRA EW suit and stealthy SCALP missiles which are cheaper than air launched BRAHMOS for strike missions. Su 35BM in a contested environment will have a tough time. That is why this will require Su 30MKI+ (Super Sukhoi) to act as bomb trucks while Rafale act as snipers and can call and guide missiles ahead of main force.



F 18 SH is the only aircraft capable of carrier flight that is tested and in production. I am not counting F 35C as that plane is essentially a bomb truck and not an air dominance fighter like F 18 SH. That's why USN is continuing to buy the planes in tandem with F 35C.

Producing carrier fighters in small batches like Mig 29K is an experiment that IN has already done and regrets deeply due to lack of after sales support and production infrastructure. Even Rafale had limited run in this department. Gripen N is still a concept with Brazilian Navy and is years away from even prototypes.

 

[smestarz]

On the point of Su-35

I think you are mixing things
a) Su-30 MKI will be upgraded to super sukhoi status that is another case and try not to mix it here

b) we are talking of 110 planes that India wants to order and the need is
The plane should be excellent in performance, should be cheap to buy use and maintain.

There are no other criteria that it should be French or American

Su-35 is way different than Su-30 MKI. they have similar base but they are different
But then by your logic. The only difference between Mirage 2000 and rafale is engine and planes. right?
So then why order Rafales? by your logic we should be able to upgrade Mirage 2000 to Rafale standards? no?

Point to note is that this is open tender and no weight restrictions, so that does not really go in favour of Rafale. DRAL will be strong only till GoI orders Rafale, if GoI orders any other plane., what will DRAL be doing? Would Dassault still outsource its work in France to DRAL without any more indian order?

HAL can always maintain and overahaul the various planes it makes. What about DRAL? They dont even have a line yet.

So DRALs future only depends IF India orders more Rafales, if it does not .... would Dassault be strong enough to still outsource its work to DrAL? Remember the French unions already have objections

I am quite sure about my sources.



Rafale won L1 pricing fair and square. As per L1 winning bid was Rafale due to lower pricing and more mature tech mainly the Captor E AESA radar on the Eurofighter which even after several years is still undergoing 'fine tuning'. UK and Germany have no plans to buy them and are instead moving on with F 35. That one thing alone stacks development costs on us. Eurofighter tried to lowball the bidding at L1 but this being in violation of DPP 2013 was not considered.



Frankly nobody does as specifications have evolved since DPP 2013 to DPP 2016. Costing could change due to inflation, USD to INR, Oil Prices, working hours, production facilities, etc. Infact if more Rafales were to ordered, their unit cost will be cheaper as we have already made down payment for MKI-isation.



Going by figures we got the cheapest and best deal amongst all other customers with offsets, Make In India, MKI-isation. Even our current 36 fighter stopgap is much cheaper than Qatar even with a customised weapon package and modifications. Our MMRCA 126 jet deal would have broken the bank for future acquisitions.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...se-of-36-rafale-jets/articleshow/47168431.cms

https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-toda...re-french-aircraft-defence-1092384-2017-11-23



Su 30 MKI was designed off Su 37 which in turn made the Su 35BM. The only difference between the two platforms are engine, radar and cockpit. All these features and more will be retrofitted under Super Sukhoi deal. On a per unit cost, it is much cheaper to upgrade existing Su 30 MKI to Su 35BM than order an entirely new airframes as we would have to pay for R&D costs in addition to MKI-isation.

http://idrw.org/indias-super-sukhoi-su-30mki-to-get-su-57-technology/

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2018/08/super-su-30mki-has-taken-shape.html

https://indianexpress.com/article/i...ay-in-sukhoi-rollout-raises-concerns-5381852/

Su 30 MKI infrastructure in India by HAL is already stretched to breaking point. They are unable to fulfil orders for 140 airframes and have to buy ready made fighters from Russia to meet quota. Even by unit cost, Su 30 MKI fighter made in India are more expensive than ones made in Russia. Russia also gouges out India for ToT and after sales support and with poor serviceability of these jets we have a top heavy air force. Thus we need more DRAL like units to have alternatives in private sector that are cheaper and deliver as well.

Su 30 MKI's major weakness is against S 300, S 400 style AA/AD systems that can make deep strike mission packages difficult unless mitigated by other ways. Rafale has a much lower RCS, has advanced RWR based SPECTRA EW suit and stealthy SCALP missiles which are cheaper than air launched BRAHMOS for strike missions. Su 35BM in a contested environment will have a tough time. That is why this will require Su 30MKI+ (Super Sukhoi) to act as bomb trucks while Rafale act as snipers and can call and guide missiles ahead of main force.



F 18 SH is the only aircraft capable of carrier flight that is tested and in production. I am not counting F 35C as that plane is essentially a bomb truck and not an air dominance fighter like F 18 SH. That's why USN is continuing to buy the planes in tandem with F 35C.

Producing carrier fighters in small batches like Mig 29K is an experiment that IN has already done and regrets deeply due to lack of after sales support and production infrastructure. Even Rafale had limited run in this department. Gripen N is still a concept with Brazilian Navy and is years away from even prototypes.

 

[vampyrbladez]

LOL if someone does not order Rafales they are ******s? nice analysis.
The Swiss did not have requirement for an aggressive plane. They are small country with all sides secured by neighbours who respect their neutrality. Why would they need an expensive plane?
Swiss can even defend their country using Pilatus ...

Swiss are ******s because they can't even afford F 16s. Original tender was a chance to get a new 4.5 gen fighter and ultimately they will buy second hand Gripen.

Keep up the strawman arguments.

 

[Immanuel]

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/u-s...ea-18g-growler-aircraft-new-powerful-engines/

EPE is fully funded, first flights early next year with 4 existing aircraft being upgraded to block 3 standards. Kuwait and USN will receive new build aircraft based on the same configuration. These trial aircraft will take part in trials in India as well.