Know Your 'Rafale'

[gadeshi]

It's nearly 30 years B52 don't embark bombs and ALCM under wings.

Orly?
How many armagniac have you drink today?
Maybe you should look at the photos first?

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[gadeshi]

That's why Meteor stato is a powder one : more easy to control.
And the maneuvers take place the last km. the 99 others km (and more...) are made quite straight.
and..... I know russia is studying a Stato R77.... but maybe you need some help?

Russians are world champions in STATO engined missiles since 1963 (when Krug and Kub SAMs have been created), so they don't need help from losers
Vympel has been studying STATO R-77 (as R-77PD) in the 90-s when Russian chemical science and and industry was almost in ruines after Yeltsin's "reforms" and could not create programmable melange fuel charges.
As well as Americans, who have studied AIM-120D first as STATO missile but then (at the same time with Russians) have managed to create PMC SRMs which allowed them both leave STATO for AGMs and ARMs (like Russian Kh-31 family).
STATO problems with intake blowbacks do not depend on fuel type, but on the factof air intake presense itself
I've proposed you to draw supersonic chockwave cone lines on this intake not to just make you to do useless thing but to make you see the angle by what those chockwaves lay into the intake and think about how those high AOA maneuvers will change chockwave angles in the intake and what can it cause in each case.
So, STATO engined missiles are not for air combat but just to hit non-maneurable targets. But why to use them even this way if there are rather more effective ones (like R-33/37 and Item 810 family)?

 

[smestarz]

The antiquated Libyan Air defence, detected and Tracked Rafales thus the rcs and the marketed SPECTRA capabilities are questionable. Like we say pure Marketing BS.
When the Russians went to Syria with their air defence cruisers and Su-30 SM, the French planes have suddenly changed the area of operations.

5-15m² is the RCS of a B52 !!! or maybe of a SU27.

Don't dream.

 

[asianobserve]

The US Navy studied in late 1980s ramjet powered missiles under AIM-152 program as a replacement to Phoenix missile. But due to the collapse of the USSR and the lack of appetite for expensive weapons that have no more natural enemies, the program was cancelled in favor of adopting AIM-120.

Anyway, solid fuelled rockets are simpler than ramjets powered ones. The latest solid fuelled missiles have multiple pulse rocket engines that allows it to optimize performance to the target.

 

[smestarz]

And on what basis should we give any credit to your rants ? You have not flown a jet, commanded squdrons or air wings, you have no direct connections with the military whatsoever ! But you are the genius and people with entire lives in the service of the nation are old fools.

Why the hell would anyone want credit from you, Do not rate yourself very high, You are not SPECTRA to be over rated either. What makes you feel that I have not flown a Jet as a pilot or commanded say a Flight? I would not say anything about me here.
But yes, I am an indian so any decision that India takes does effect me, I am tax paying citizen of India. Now you, are French, apparently with a nice modern style of begging and cajoling to buy the 4th Gen crap called Rafales. Your money that you paid in tax has been wasted by your govt on that crab and now most of the public services are suffering. You have a govt which is not popular and you wonder "what the hell just happened" so in order for the French to get some of the services that they were used to, more planes need to be sold, after all the tax that you paid and was expected that the govt give you benefit has been spent on buying that expensive junk.
So, In a way I do have the right to question the old fools of my country, because its my money, You can question France or your govt, not me, not India. We are buying nation here and you are selling nation, so behave like a seller and show modesty, elst take your junk to middle east, they are happy with your junk, we want a better value for money because, its OUR HARD EARNED MONEY and its not for throwing at any French wimp who does not know HOW TO BEG .

 

[Bahamut]

SU35 radar can see a 2m² target at 300-350km. And it's the radar supplier datas.... questionnable....
Rafale RCS is far far under 0,5 m²

That is front RCS for a clean Rafale in X band , it will increase with external load or if it is detected on the sides.

 

[smestarz]

Thank you for being calm. and thank you for understanding my point

RE: Meteor
It is tested by AdlA but it is not operational with AdlA, I would be interested to see where they say that Meteor is operational with Rafale, they tested it as late as April 2015. Further as you maybe aware, The first user will be Gripen and then followed by Eurofighter, Rafale would be the last of the three.

I mean if you are allowed to simulate weapons that you do not have operationally, we could hell simulate a long range Phaser lol

The point being that since it was an exercise and that balance was to be maintained so that the exercise is helpful to learn and not just show off who has longer range missiles, the range of R-77 was limited to same range as MICA.

I understood and one amen for you





In Jodhpur Rafale didn't come with meteor to get a score over MKI

thus in Air superiority context MKI won, I've no problem on that



Sure..will try to calm down myself

 

[smestarz]

Hailing from Goa-Karwar, I know Parrikar more closely than you guys,
He is not the "regular" politician, rather he does not play politics or dirty politics. Keeping his card close to his body is a new thing for him. He prefers transparency

The Service persons lost their credibility when ex IAF pilot Kalmadi was involved heavily in CWG scam. Also the Involvement of Tyagi in AW scam did not help their image. A decade ago the service top brass were media shy and they never gave statements to publc,rather counter productive statements. For example when the DM is negoatiating Rafale, when the ACM talks of how critical Rafale is for IAF, it in a way eases the pressure off the french negotiators because they feel that IAF will push the govt to sign. Parrikar has managed to keep himself away from such pressures and focus on his work.

If you give in to the defence forces, we shall firstly have the likes of Tyagi minting money for themselves and their relatives at cost of national security for buying products that are "critical" for the nation, Then the politicians will be paying to get one of their sons into defence and pay for him to be promoted and put in position where all the money that the politician has paid for his son to get into the force and be promoted will be recovered in one deal itself and Indians will be left holding their "dix"

Parrikar is a pro-active defence minister, he will work for what is actually required and not what Chair marshalls yell on NDTV as the plane is critical for india. So it will be well calculated, well thought decision that will ensure getting the right product, at the right price and importantly put the indian defence industry on its feet that we dont have to depend on countries like France and their shady deals

Its better we have to give the G suit to the Politicians to fly those jets and also give a mission to breach Pakistani airspace.

Nowadays Service persons loosing their credibility that Idiot politicians over ruling them

Parrikar is a shit

 

[smestarz]

Syria is a sovereign country, but before the Russians interfered, The French and the Americans were flying in syria with impunity. There have been times when Americans wanted to have a no fly zone in Syria (very much like what happened in Libya) the Russians were already in bad mood with the west due to UKRAINE crisis where the west did manage to put sanctions on Russia So, Russia was surely in no mood to listen to what the west were talking.
The French are bombing in Syria for many years and ISIS got stronger, so what exactly were they doing? Flying in Simulators? The Russians were invited by the Syrians and then Russians took a stance, if you are not with us, you are against us. The Russians also deployed an air defence destroyer just outside Tartar which will ensure that no plane other than friendly planes get involved. After the Su-30 SM and this AD destroyer got involved the scope of French strikes was limited to positions only in Iraq. This is how I see the situation.

Prior to Russian entrance in the conflict, the west were eager to depose Assad, and now they are singing a different tune, Can the French air assets in Syria take down Russian Su-30 SM? Highly unlikely But it was also in French and Russian interest not to get into conflict with each other and divert from the main enemy IS

Syrian sovereign is controlled by Russians now, any prior usage of their airspace must need Russian authorisation

 

[smestarz]

Dear Dogmatx, I already posted the link, now in the forum where you are also a member, I did point to a particular post, the link provided. Now you do hold highly a member called Picdel .... who apparently is linked to Dassault and was close to Indian deal discussions, and apparently vstol and Picdel respect each other and know each other as genuine, So when you doubt what Vstol said, you do surely doubt all BS that Picdel said (I already doubt their BS) so what I might suggest you is, Go to the said link that I gave, and reply to that thread to Vstol and tell him he is BS and liar, I did point you to the link and who said it, Now, if you are not castrated as yet, you can go ahead and do what I asked you,

I ASK YOU A PROOF !

Where is that Proof ? you speak, speak, speak..... always the same BS without any proof. As usual.

 

[smestarz]

Dear Dogmatix, We?? You? Rahul Gandhi and Congress? France? Dassault?? Who are you to ask me what my education is etc,? You are dogmatix, Dogmatix does not ask such questions its my own personal thing, why should i divulge who am I to you? You are getting too curious about many things except the topics at hand,
As I said and gave the link, Vstoll described how Su-30 MKI humped Rafale, so you can take your matters with him and Picdel...
So, to ask my education, its not your right, and about how Rafale was humped by su-30 MKI I directed you to the link and who posted it, talk to that guy.. cheers

How educate are you? are you able to do anything else than writing again and again same BS ? no link, no evidence, no proof.

Answer just to the question we ask you.

 

[smestarz]

Dear Dogmatix, you say you are educated, but do you really understand?

test pilots have flown both M2000 as well as Tejas and rate Teja much higher than Mirage 2000

The best part is that Tejas is not even inducted yet and the French are already pissing their pants, What happens when it gets inducted? Difficult to interpolate, Perhaps France becomes the biggest producer of urea overnight.

Just one problem : Tejas is not induced yet. And is far from seeing fire.

It will come.... but this promise fall several times already.

 

[smestarz]

Russian radar supplier data questionable, French data reliable? What are the standards that you use to decide what is questionable and what is reliable? Apparently since you are french, Anything written in French (and which is only language you understand without ambiguity ) that is reliable, and if its written in english then questionable,
As you see, thats just your education which is your basic problem, By the way Rafale RCS is more than what you reported, Actually it might seem that F/A-18 might have same or lower RCS than Rafale
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm
Please do provide link to Rafale RCS being 0.5 m²

SU35 radar can see a 2m² target at 300-350km. And it's the radar supplier datas.... questionnable....
Rafale RCS is far far under 0,5 m²

 

[smestarz]

The country is Syria, Russians have been given authorisation by Sysia to help them
so since its Syria,, France should be informing Syria and Russians. When the French inform only Russians, it means the French realise who the alpha dog is, and that is the Russians, If against the Russians, French might be able to use SCALP once, but then even 100 kms near Syrian border and the Rafales would be shot down in numbers. So, very much like you Dogmatix, even France behaves when they see Russia.That is just natural

Deconfliction it is called.
Permission? we inform Russian so as to avoid problem. Do you think to fire SCALP cruise missile we even speak to Putin sbire?

 

[smestarz]

Manufacturers always give official and reliable data and that is the reality. If you say far more, was the chairman of the company whispering the classified data in your ears at night?
Companies always give data which is consitent, thus when they give range of 100 kms then the same is as per the test conditions and its consistent , in some cases it will vary.

By the way, if the Range is higher like you claim, why would the company handicap its sales by giving lower figure? I mean if a missile is having official range of 100 kms but the actual classified Range is more, (maybe 150) why would it claim its just 100? Would it not be hampering its own sales? specially when the cmpany has share holdiers and the idea is to have more sales? So when the product has consistent range of 100 kms but markets it as 50 kms range then surely I do start to question the intelligence of the management.

Range of a missile can be calculated by many points (engines, fuel etc) so that in a way does not remain classified, what company would want to keep classified is perhaps its its seeker technology and its actual ability to do well in highly ECCM environment. LOL you apparently look at range of missile like age of a woman... CLASSIFIED.

Official data is 100km. Reality is far more, but classified. It's not important to give officialy the real range as EVERY BODY, even you, know a stato is far more efficient than a classical booster counterpart.
and probably this is 100km with a full pk.... You classical "rocket" AtoA missile can't have it.

 

[gadeshi]

The antiquated Libyan Air defence, detected and Tracked Rafales thus the rcs and the marketed SPECTRA capabilities are questionable. Like we say pure Marketing BS.
When the Russians went to Syria with their air defence cruisers and Su-30 SM, the French planes have suddenly changed the area of operations.

It's not Spectra or RCS measures fault.
Any AD can track any plane extensively loaded with external stores.

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[gadeshi]

Thank you for being calm. and thank you for understanding my point

RE: Meteor
It is tested by AdlA but it is not operational with AdlA, I would be interested to see where they say that Meteor is operational with Rafale, they tested it as late as April 2015. Further as you maybe aware, The first user will be Gripen and then followed by Eurofighter, Rafale would be the last of the three.

I mean if you are allowed to simulate weapons that you do not have operationally, we could hell simulate a long range Phaser lol

The point being that since it was an exercise and that balance was to be maintained so that the exercise is helpful to learn and not just show off who has longer range missiles, the range of R-77 was limited to same range as MICA.

Grippen to use Meteor? How with it's poor ranged radar?

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[smestarz]

Based on posts by several French Rafale fans, They claim that the RCS of rafale is less than 0.5 Sq m, also they have posted several posts where the rafale pilots flying in Libya claim that due to SPECTRA they were able to carry out their mission as SPECTRA made the plane "invisible"
Thus even that low RCS and SPECTRA , still Libyan defence were able to track Rafales, thus in a way the French investment on lowering of RCS and SPECTRA (as they claim it is) its useless. I do maintain that SPECTRA is just data fusion, but the way Rafale fanboys weave BS that SPECTRA can do wonders.

I think based on all the investment done, and what results they got (Libya still able to detect Rafale) they should not have spent money on lowering RCS or improve spectra, they should have written on side of plane with visible colour "THIS PLANE IS INVISIBLE" That would have had same result at Fraction of the price

It's not Spectra or RCS measures fault.
Any AD can track any plane extensively loaded with external stores.

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[BON PLAN]

Russians are world champions in STATO engined missiles since 1963 (when Krug and Kub SAMs have been created), so they don't need help from losers
Vympel has been studying STATO R-77 (as R-77PD) in the 90-s when Russian chemical science and and industry was almost in ruines after Yeltsin's "reforms" and could not create programmable melange fuel charges.
As well as Americans, who have studied AIM-120D first as STATO missile but then (at the same time with Russians) have managed to create PMC SRMs which allowed them both leave STATO for AGMs and ARMs (like Russian Kh-31 family).
STATO problems with intake blowbacks do not depend on fuel type, but on the factof air intake presense itself
I've proposed you to draw supersonic chockwave cone lines on this intake not to just make you to do useless thing but to make you see the angle by what those chockwaves lay into the intake and think about how those high AOA maneuvers will change chockwave angles in the intake and what can it cause in each case.
So, STATO engined missiles are not for air combat but just to hit non-maneurable targets. But why to use them even this way if there are rather more effective ones (like R-33/37 and Item 810 family)?

Always answered : Meteor will not lost part of its energy with range. It will arrive at full speed nearly it's target (after few mid and end course flight trajectory adjustments). So EVEN IF The stato was inefficient, Meteor has only last km to do, at full speed from the beginning, with some hard turn to do : absolutely no Pb, as classical missile in the same situation are not at full speed.
It's not because Russian were unable to study and produce AAM stato missile, ALL EUROPE together can't do !

 

[BON PLAN]

The antiquated Libyan Air defence, detected and Tracked Rafales thus the rcs and the marketed SPECTRA capabilities are questionable. Like we say pure Marketing BS.
When the Russians went to Syria with their air defence cruisers and Su-30 SM, the French planes have suddenly changed the area of operations.

This time again, give us PROOFS.

But proof is a word you don't understand.