Know Your 'Rafale'

[sasum]

@Big Pic .No frivolous post please in the middle of serious discussion. Everybody has noted your 'wnow rite' gaffe.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Ha ha ha...viewers have also noted how silly, the report reads. The table and chart attribute the relative merits to "pilot impression" rather than bench-mark statistics. Whims & fancies of a few pilots matter more than the performance related data of each sub-systems. And what do they mean by Air Policing, Escort, Reconnaissance ? Are these missions important or matter at all for a front-line fighter-jet ?These tasks can be performed by any 3rd generation plane without much vaunted SPECTRA, Stealth or super-cruise ability. The report tried to bench-mark performance against F-18 C/D (the obsolete variants, production of which stopped in 2000 !!) that itself didn't participate !!!!!
And @BON PLAN has the audacity to say Indian Evaluation is a "cut-paste" of the poorly appraised Swiss Report?
Swiss Govt bought Gripen against tremendous lobbying speaks a lot about actual performance of Rafale. As we all know a fighter-jet which looks unbeatable on paper may turn out pretty ordinary in the sky.
Having said that it is a fact that Rafale has better Avionics Suit than Gripen, but SAAB traded off better avionics for cheaper price.

Good observation - pilot feelings

Most of the people missed that

 

[WolfPack86]

Rafale Deal: How The Air force Squandered A Procurement Opportunity.
The country’s most expensive defence deal in its history will neither lead to a transfer of technology and local manufacturing nor will IAF acquire the required number of jets to enhance the country’s defence.
It is of no strategic value and government should cancel it.
“War is too important to be left to the Generals,” said former French Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau. However, Indian security planners have for long allowed the IAF’s rhetoric of wanting the “best combat jet” to remain unchallenged. India is paying dearly, both in money and in defence preparedness for such dereliction of duty.
The country’s most expensive defence deal in its history will neither lead to a transfer of technology and local manufacturing nor will IAF acquire the required number of jets to enhance the country’s defence.
Ironically, despite the obvious deficiencies India cannot walk away from the deal. This is because we need the jets to make up for numbers badly!
That IAF was losing combat jets to ageing was always known. IAF’s squadron strength is expected to get to 25 in next six years against a sanctioned strength of 42. That is a shortfall of about 200 jets.
The MMRCA tender which was supposed to make up for this gap was a badly designed tender from the get-go. With insipid political leadership at the helm, IAF came to dominate the process. A holistic approach to defence procurement was the first casualty.
Commercial acumen to keep several bidders competing until price negotiations are concluded was discarded. The IAF’s singular concern was to procure their favourite aircraft.
Instead of setting performance requirements in view of prevailing threats the IAF went for the gold-plated version. The rhetoric of getting the “best plane” got the better of realpolitik. The IAF narrowed down the entire process to a single criterion of best performance.
The approach was similar to a family deciding to buy the best car in the market and checking their bank balance after selecting the Rolls Royce. Fascination with technology reached levels where battle-hardened platforms like the F-18 were not good enough for the IAF. Neither was the Eurofighter, which is the primary fighter of several NATO and European Air Forces like Germany and the UK, good enough.
Of all the competing platforms the Rafale was developed last, a good decade after Eurofighter, so it’s not surprising that the Rafale has the latest technology. It’s no wonder that the Rafale won the tender.
The IAF remained unchallenged in selecting Rafale and no second or third winner was announced. The French buoyed by their monopoly promptly withdraw the prior commitments to manufacture in India citing warranty issues. The price now escalated to a point where the plane became unaffordable. The new government rightly cancelled the tender. However, to placate the IAF a compromise purchase of 36 jets was announced.
But the landscape has changed completely. While the MMRCA tender lumbered through the byzantine decision-making process in India, the Rafale won orders from Qatar and Egypt. Dassault’s, the company which produces the Rafale jets, production lines are running at capacity to fulfill these orders. While this deal is urgent for India, the French are in no hurry.
The 126 jets in the original MMRCA tender were expected to cost around $12 billion. But today the smaller 36 jets order alone is expected to cost $7- 8 billion. The price has more than doubled. India seems to hold no cards in the face of hard-nosed French negotiations.
Despite the noblest of intentions, IAF’s objective of getting the best jets for its fleet has not bolstered India’s security. If anything the entire process has caused a massive deterioration in India’s defence preparedness. Hopefully, some lessons have been learnt.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/05/rafale-deal-how-air-force-squandered.html

 

[BON PLAN]

Will the rafale become more affordable next year ?

Maybe YES.
Rate of production will grow from 1 to 3/month from 2018, so it cut the fixed costs.

 

[BON PLAN]

Facts and pilot feeling don't gel together

Either it is cold facts hard numbers

Or

It is just pilots feelings

How do you equate feelings with facts ?

Rafale L1 in India
Rafale L1 in Switzerland
Rafale L2 in 2001 in Netherlands against a paper plane (F35 : 6,97 / Rafale 6.95). Replay now the game and Rafale will be L1.
Rafale L1 in Korea

All is said no?

 

[BON PLAN]

Good observation - pilot feelings

Most of the people missed that

Pilots feelings are only a small part of the technical report. Just something more.
Compare all the datas and measures in the Swiss report and you see Rafale is beaten only on some small points, and by a small margin. On all the rest it is the best.
Clearly it was the more homogen fighter of the three remaining in the swiss tender.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale Deal: How The Air force Squandered A Procurement Opportunity.
The country’s most expensive defence deal in its history will neither lead to a transfer of technology and local manufacturing nor will IAF acquire the required number of jets to enhance the country’s defence.
It is of no strategic value and government should cancel it.
“War is too important to be left to the Generals,” said former French Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau. However, Indian security planners have for long allowed the IAF’s rhetoric of wanting the “best combat jet” to remain unchallenged. India is paying dearly, both in money and in defence preparedness for such dereliction of duty.
The country’s most expensive defence deal in its history will neither lead to a transfer of technology and local manufacturing nor will IAF acquire the required number of jets to enhance the country’s defence.
Ironically, despite the obvious deficiencies India cannot walk away from the deal. This is because we need the jets to make up for numbers badly!
That IAF was losing combat jets to ageing was always known. IAF’s squadron strength is expected to get to 25 in next six years against a sanctioned strength of 42. That is a shortfall of about 200 jets.
The MMRCA tender which was supposed to make up for this gap was a badly designed tender from the get-go. With insipid political leadership at the helm, IAF came to dominate the process. A holistic approach to defence procurement was the first casualty.
Commercial acumen to keep several bidders competing until price negotiations are concluded was discarded. The IAF’s singular concern was to procure their favourite aircraft.
Instead of setting performance requirements in view of prevailing threats the IAF went for the gold-plated version. The rhetoric of getting the “best plane” got the better of realpolitik. The IAF narrowed down the entire process to a single criterion of best performance.
The approach was similar to a family deciding to buy the best car in the market and checking their bank balance after selecting the Rolls Royce. Fascination with technology reached levels where battle-hardened platforms like the F-18 were not good enough for the IAF. Neither was the Eurofighter, which is the primary fighter of several NATO and European Air Forces like Germany and the UK, good enough.
Of all the competing platforms the Rafale was developed last, a good decade after Eurofighter, so it’s not surprising that the Rafale has the latest technology. It’s no wonder that the Rafale won the tender.
The IAF remained unchallenged in selecting Rafale and no second or third winner was announced. The French buoyed by their monopoly promptly withdraw the prior commitments to manufacture in India citing warranty issues. The price now escalated to a point where the plane became unaffordable. The new government rightly cancelled the tender. However, to placate the IAF a compromise purchase of 36 jets was announced.
But the landscape has changed completely. While the MMRCA tender lumbered through the byzantine decision-making process in India, the Rafale won orders from Qatar and Egypt. Dassault’s, the company which produces the Rafale jets, production lines are running at capacity to fulfill these orders. While this deal is urgent for India, the French are in no hurry.
The 126 jets in the original MMRCA tender were expected to cost around $12 billion. But today the smaller 36 jets order alone is expected to cost $7- 8 billion. The price has more than doubled. India seems to hold no cards in the face of hard-nosed French negotiations.
Despite the noblest of intentions, IAF’s objective of getting the best jets for its fleet has not bolstered India’s security. If anything the entire process has caused a massive deterioration in India’s defence preparedness. Hopefully, some lessons have been learnt.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/05/rafale-deal-how-air-force-squandered.html

FULL OF NONSENSE.
Rafale was developped in the same time than EF. It is just better because developped to fullfil only one request (French force), think as a polyvalent plateform from the beginning (it will replace ALL the french war plane . Eurofighter was developped only as an Air to Air fighter) and studied by only one drawing board staff with 50 years of Delta experience.
And once again stop comparing apple with strawberry.
MMRCA was for 126 "dry" plane (ie without support, new equipment...). Rafale F3-O4 was choosen.
Now India want a more evoluted Rafale (F3R) with 2 bases equipped, support for 10 years, new weapons integrated... etc... etc...

Stop beiing naive.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Rafale L1 in India
Rafale L1 in Switzerland
Rafale L2 in 2001 in Netherlands against a paper plane (F35 : 6,97 / Rafale 6.95). Replay now the game and Rafale will be L1.
Rafale L1 in Korea

All is said no?

Well so now technical facts and pilot feelings are equated with L1

So tell me on what basis was rafale declared L1 in India ?

Commercial bids ?

Oh if rafale was L1 in all the above listed by you did it bag all the orders ?

 

[sasum]

Rafale L2 in 2001 in Netherlands against a paper plane (F35 : 6,97 / Rafale 6.95).

@PaliwalWarrior @BON PLAN
Ha Ha ha... Competition with F-35 in 2001 !!!. First demo flight of F-35 was in 2006. Fact is :-
In 2001, Rafale, Gripen and Eurofighter went head to head at the Leeuwarden airshow in the Netherlands. The JSF – as the F-35 was known back then – was nowhere to been seen, since the prototype X-35 only flew first time in October 2000.
The Dutch eventually chose Gripen to replace F-16. Eurofighter came 2nd and poor Rafale was the loser.

 

[manutdfan]

@smestarz say the Rafale deal is cancelled. How many Su-30MKIs can we get for $8.8 billion, in terms of lifecycle cost?

 

[manutdfan]

With the AgustaWestland scam I believe the Rafale deal is as good as dead even if it is a fine aircraft. And I was not even aware of the Pilatus trainer scam. Fuck I'm disgusted. Looks like everything in this country sells at the correct price tag. The MES and CSD were the only branches of the Armed forces that were somewhat corrupt but these recent revelations take it to an all new level.

It should have been quite obvious what with the Adarsh housing scam and all. Personally I'm not surprised. When IAS/IPS/IRS officers are making 100 crore plus on an avg in a 30yr career from the comfort of their plush A/C offices & villas; the guy in the olive uniform is bound to feel shortchanged. The OROP incident has further worsened matters and led to a feeling of disillusionment.

 

[WolfPack86]

Bureaucratic Paralysis Hits Rafale Deal
NEW DELHI — Only two weeks ago India's purchase of 36 Dassault Rafael fighters was considered imminent, but the deal has since been all but frozen and the country's general director of defense acquisition suddenly forced to step aside. Procurement officials in the Ministry of Defence (MoD) now are taking "a very cautious approach" in the $8.9 billion deal to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets, said an MoD source.

Early last month, for reasons that are not clear, former director general defense acquisition Smita Nagaraj was involuntarily placed on leave over differences with MoD leaders over Rafale negotiations, said the source.

Procurement officials in MoD are now too scared to clear any files and virtually all new acquisitions are stuck, the MoD source added.
Early this month, MoD officials conducted negotiations on the Rafale deal with French defense officials and it was decided that India for immediate requirements would make an unspecified number of weaponry purchases, including Mica air-to-air missiles, Scalp air-to-ground missiles, the Meteor beyond visual range missile and precision guided munitions at a cost of $1 billion. The negotiations also included a maintenance and engineering support agreement for five years at a cost of $500 million.

Dassault chairman Eric Trappier said in an April 13 radio report that he expected a contract could be signed “in the next few days," adding, “I have high hopes this contract could be signed fairly quickly.”

Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar informed the parliament May 3 that the federal Law Ministry has reviewed the Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) on the Rafale deal and that the findings would be taken into account when finalizing the IGA on the Rafale deal.

The parliamentary standing committee on defense expressed displeasure over the fact that the deal has not been completed.
“The committee is unhappy to note that although a considerable time has elapsed, negotiations with France on Rafale could not be taken to a logical end,” the radio report said.
Earlier, a French embassy source told Defense News there was an expected agreement of 50 percent offsets in the Rafale deal. The source said 30 percent of offsets will be earmarked for future military aviation research and development programs and the remaining 20 percent for Indian defense industries making Rafale components.

To execute the offsets, several French companies, including Safran and Thales, will join Dassault in providing state-of-the-art technologies in stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles, and materials for electronics and micro-electronics, the French Embassy source said.

India MoD officials plan to buy all 36 Rafale fighters in fly-away condition, with first delivery of the Rafale expected within 20 months of the contract.

France will also provide five years of maintenance and spares support for Rafale aircraft.
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...aucratic-paralysis-hits-rafale-deal/84483312/

 

[harsh]

First Tejas squadron to fly before Diwali: Parrikar

NEW DELHI: The first squadron of Tejas fighter jets will be flying before Diwali, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said, adding that the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) is as good as Rafale, even though its load carrying capacity and range is lesser.
He also said that by the year-end, the government will decide on which multi-role fighter jets will be manufactured in the country.
In an interview to All India Radio, the minister stressed that the Indian Air Force can get two Tejas fighters at the price of one Rafale jet.
"In the air force, a new fighter has not been inducted since 1994. Tejas was stuck for 32 years. Now, two planes have been supplied and a few more will be supplied in a couple of months," Parrikar said.
"The first squadron of Tejas will be ready by September-October and it will be flying before Diwali," the minister said.
"Our Tejas has the same qualities as Rafale. Although Tejas is in lightweight category, with its range also half compared with Rafale, but in terms of avionics, electronics and firepower it is no less than Rafale," he said.
"One Rafale fighter is worth approximately Rs 700 crore to Rs 750 crore while an Su-30 costs about Rs 475 crore. Compared to these planes, India's Tejas is in the range of Rs 200 crore to Rs 250 crore only. We can get two Tejas at the price of one Rafale," the minister said.
Parrikar said concluding the deal to buy Rafale fighters from Dassault Aviation of France will take a "few more weeks", and added that the negotiations on price was important.
"You will have to bring down the cost. If you throw away the price they demand, our coffers will soon be empty," he said.
Asked about the plans to manufacture the multi-role fighter jets in the country, Parrikar said: "By the end of this year, a decision will be taken on which fighter aircraft will be made in India. We have not decided yet whether we will make the F-18, Eurofighter, Rafale or Griffin."
On the dip in the numbers of IAF squadrons, the defence minister said the gap will be bridged soon. "The sanctioned strength of fighter squadrons is 42, but 100 percent is never reached. We have 34 squadrons at present. In the next three to four years, four to five squadrons of Tejas will be added; a few more squadrons of Sukhoi will also come. By then two squadrons of Rafale jets will also come," Parrikar said.
The minister, asked about the new Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), said its effects will be visible from next year. In the next seven to eight years, the ratio of imports in defence equipments may come down to 30 to 35 per cent, making India "almost self-reliant", Parrikar said. The minister said the ratio of import in military hardware has come down from 70 per cent to 63 per cent at present.
"If every year the decrease is five to ten per cent, in the next five years, it can come under 40 per cent. When it comes under 30 per cent, we will be more or less self-dependent. Some items are such that manufacturing them in the country is not profitable. It is better to buy (from abroad) because the cost and numbers do not justify domestic production," he said.


So to get contract of 36 rafales france must cut the prices or they can go wherever they want

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

@smestarz say the Rafale deal is cancelled. How many Su-30MKIs can we get for $8.8 billion, in terms of lifecycle cost?

Almost double

Calculating life cycle costs

If you consider opportunity costs of money saved on initial capex (purchase) then more than double

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Bureaucratic Paralysis Hits Rafale Deal
NEW DELHI — Only two weeks ago India's purchase of 36 Dassault Rafael fighters was considered imminent, but the deal has since been all but frozen and the country's general director of defense acquisition suddenly forced to step aside. Procurement officials in the Ministry of Defence (MoD) now are taking "a very cautious approach" in the $8.9 billion deal to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets, said an MoD source.

Early last month, for reasons that are not clear, former director general defense acquisition Smita Nagaraj was involuntarily placed on leave over differences with MoD leaders over Rafale negotiations, said the source.

Procurement officials in MoD are now too scared to clear any files and virtually all new acquisitions are stuck, the MoD source added.
Early this month, MoD officials conducted negotiations on the Rafale deal with French defense officials and it was decided that India for immediate requirements would make an unspecified number of weaponry purchases, including Mica air-to-air missiles, Scalp air-to-ground missiles, the Meteor beyond visual range missile and precision guided munitions at a cost of $1 billion. The negotiations also included a maintenance and engineering support agreement for five years at a cost of $500 million.

Dassault chairman Eric Trappier said in an April 13 radio report that he expected a contract could be signed “in the next few days," adding, “I have high hopes this contract could be signed fairly quickly.”

Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar informed the parliament May 3 that the federal Law Ministry has reviewed the Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) on the Rafale deal and that the findings would be taken into account when finalizing the IGA on the Rafale deal.

The parliamentary standing committee on defense expressed displeasure over the fact that the deal has not been completed.
“The committee is unhappy to note that although a considerable time has elapsed, negotiations with France on Rafale could not be taken to a logical end,” the radio report said.
Earlier, a French embassy source told Defense News there was an expected agreement of 50 percent offsets in the Rafale deal. The source said 30 percent of offsets will be earmarked for future military aviation research and development programs and the remaining 20 percent for Indian defense industries making Rafale components.

To execute the offsets, several French companies, including Safran and Thales, will join Dassault in providing state-of-the-art technologies in stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles, and materials for electronics and micro-electronics, the French Embassy source said.

India MoD officials plan to buy all 36 Rafale fighters in fly-away condition, with first delivery of the Rafale expected within 20 months of the contract.

France will also provide five years of maintenance and spares support for Rafale aircraft.
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...aucratic-paralysis-hits-rafale-deal/84483312/

And some desi rafLe fanboys were shouting here that iga has already been signed

 

[pmaitra]

The 1st Tejas Squadron comprising 2 planes will be raised on 1st July' 16.
http://googleweblight.com/?lite_url...800394&sig=APY536xX79CXzl1AdQr1kfTM9_-wGGTvvg
A squadron of aircrafts can comprise a maximum of 24 aircrafts, but seems there is no minimum number :biggrin2:

The amount of alcohol in a peg depends upon the generosity of the pourer.

We can always define a squadron comprising of 0 planes. That way we can have any number of squadrons.

Most IIT-ians are indeed very smart people. Then there are some who enter politics.

 

[pmaitra]

The amount of alcohol in a peg depends upon the generosity of the pourer.

We can always define a squadron comprising of 0 planes. That way we can have any number of squadrons.

Most IIT-ians are indeed very smart people. Then there are some who enter politics.

Now, to be fair, the article says that more planes will be added to the squadron.

Well, then why call it a squadron at all? Call it a squadron when there are at least 16 planes in it. Till then, call it a fraction of a squadron, or incomplete squadron.

 

[sasum]

Most IIT-ians are indeed very smart people. Then there are some who enter politics.

Khujli may please note

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

...but ofcourse, it's not a technical assessment. Rather, lip-service for the state-run companies that are under MoD.

I would like to reiterate for members here that the Tejas has it's own role to fulfill (replace MiG-21s and add numbers) which it is still unable to do and won't be able to do so in the foreseeable future, either (atleast not before 2020-2025).

I frankly have no idea under which context did Parrikar try to compare the two planes, which are in entirely different categories and have different roles to fulfill. Oh, and by the way Rafale is way ahead of Tejas in all the departments he mentioned.

Speaking of avionics (Aviation Electronics)...the slotted-array 2032 is literally no match for the AESA. There is no IRST, no TV and Tejas does not even have a simple MAWS, let alone more advanced features like all-round situational awareness, use of GaN, QWIP etc.

It's Active sensors are mediocre in comparison to present-version Rafale, while Passive awareness is a dud (non-existent).

Firepower? Well, Tejas can carry about 1/3rd the payload of Rafale. There is still no provision for multi-rack ejectors atleast for A2G munitions. It can't supercruise either.

As I said, at the end of the day Parrikar is a politician and not an aviation expert/analyst. So yeah, a precise technical assessment of the aircraft is not something expected of him. So I'd suggest to members here to take the large, bold letters in the post I'm quoting with....disregard.

Parrikar is simply trying to save the asses of the incompetent fools running the government companies. As I said....LIP-SERVICE.

Does rafale have GaN ?

,...............................

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

@Gessler

As I said, at the end of the day Parrikar is a politician and not an aviation expert/analyst. So yeah, a precise technical assessment of the aircraft is not something expected of him. So I'd suggest to members here to take the large, bold letters in the post I'm quoting with....disregard.

Parrikar is simply trying to save the asses of the incompetent fools running the government companies. As I said....LIP-SERVICE.

Using the same logic

You are just a student no aviation expert

And so your rants about capabilities of rafale are just that rants. Nothing to take seriously