Know Your 'Rafale'

WolfPack86

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Stoic Silence: Dead End Looming Large for Rafale in India
India's stiff position on a lower price along with the negative impact of the AgustaWestland chopper scam are likely to be the nail in the coffin of the India-France Rafale deal.

NEW DELHI (Sputnik) — The alleged corruption in the scrapped AgustWestland helicopter deal and the obstinate position of both sides over the cost of the deal are threatening to send the protracted negotiations into cold storage forever.



Bharat Karnad, former member, India's National Security Council, confirms the conjecture, "The AgustaWestland corruption scandal has pretty much sunk the Rafale deal for fear that France's cultivation of interested parties over the past decade could end up tarring the ruling BJP regime in some way, considering a lot of the Indian Air Force brass and Ministry of Defense officials spanning the NDA and UPA governments may be implicated in any future investigation and who, in turn, may drag the relatively clean reputation of Narendra Modi & Co. through the mud."
The AgustaWestland controversy was triggered by an Italian High Court ruling that the initial three AgustaWestland VVIP choppers delivered to India actually failed their payload test, which implied that vested interests were involved in pushing through the deal despite quality concerns. The delivery of the remaining choppers has been cancelled.

Price is another factor that remains a bone of contention between the two sides. Earlier negotiations between India and France for the purchase of 126 Rafale failed owing to the price quoted by France, which India said was too high. Now, in fresh negotiations, India is expecting to procure 36 Rafale at a cost as economical as possible. During the negotiations for 126 Rafale, India's Defense Minister Parrikar had said that India would require at least 19 billion euro for 126 Rafale over a period of 10-11 years. But now he expects to clinch a deal for 36 Rafale at an even lower cost. In his statement in Parliament he said:

"We are trying our best to save money. If we purchase the required 36 Rafale, we will buy them at a price that's below the cost that was estimated when we were negotiating for 126 Rafale."

Based on the original cost for 126 Rafale agreed in the earlier negotiations, 36 Rafale would cost no more than 5 billion Euro. However, France quoted 7.5 billion euro for the 36 Rafale in April this year — a proposition India is reluctant to accept. Meanwhile, sources close to the French negotiating team suggest that the price offered by India is not acceptable to the Dassault Aviation, which already has a full order-book. As per a 2015 deal, the manufacturer has agreed to sell 24 Rafale to Egypt at a cost of 5.2 billion euro. It is also selling 24 Rafale to Qatar and expects Malaysia to place an order soon.

On the price factor, Bharat Karnad told Sputnik:

"India simply cannot afford investing in Tejas Mk-2, Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft or the Rafale — the three frontline projects on the Indian Air Force's menu. Because Su-50 is the future; Rafale becomes expendable. This is so because the present threats can be handled by the immediate augmentation of the Su-30MKI fleet by accelerating the LCA Mk-2 to speedy development and induction."

India was interested in buying 126 Rafale in 2007. But, negotiations were not unsuccessful because of the high price and unfavorable terms quoted by Dassault Aviation. During the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to France in April 2015, the Indian government conveyed to France that in view of the critical operational necessity for Multi-role combat Aircraft for Indian Air Force (IAF) India would like to acquire 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible. Subsequently, negotiations on charting an Inter-Governmental Agreement started in May 2015. However, India's Law & Justice department has made strong objections against the proposed Inter-Governmental Agreement.

http://sputniknews.com/military/20160517/1039732508/india-rafale-deal-security.html
 

smestarz

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pak and china has always been teaming up with skirmishes at borders... Rafaela or not... them pests will pester. Nothing new in it and India has always successfully used coercive measures to counter them.
pak cant afford a war with India..nor china can afford a war trodden pak.


:bs:

:D
Is this another example of Paid Journalism by Defense companies like that done in Augusta Westland case?
the following part is what I dont really believe. A retired IAF Chief apparently innocent, and something managed during his tenure and his closest relatives happen to benefit from the deal
I mean the Itaians in this case are stupid, as they give money to close relatives of IAF chief who did nothing, specially when Italy as a country is in recession. I mean if Finnmecannica wanted I could have given my bank account no if they were such charitable. And how did FM actually convince their top leadership that they have to "donate" the money to some Tyagis (who apparently by some strange co-incidence were close relatives of IAF chiefs.. Thus the following statement that IAF chief is innocent as a child is pure BS, there are kickbacks even Anthony was sure of it and hence he froze the contract.

The high voltage debate in Parliament and outside on the AgustaWestland deal in which former IAF chief Tyagi is being questioned, sources said, will slow down defence procurements at all levels. As a retired officer said, “who will now sign the bottom line, no official will as he might be hauled up even after he has retired by another government of the day for kickbacks that he might know nothing of
 

sasum

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France's cultivation of interested parties over the past decade could end up tarring the ruling BJP regime in some way,
This part partly gives away the game. Why can not Govt make the MMRCA technical evaluation report public?
 

BON PLAN

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This part partly gives away the game. Why can not Govt make the MMRCA technical evaluation report public?
It will be a cut/paste from Swiss eval. Rafale first in some area, and mainly first in all together.
 

Bahamut

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It will be a cut/paste from Swiss eval. Rafale first in some area, and mainly first in all together.
Cannot say anything as the no of compititor were more with planes like F 18 and MiG 35 dominating A2G & A2A respectively and also the no of parameter were high and in more detail but Rafale will be in top 3 in most parameter.
 

sasum

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It will be a cut/paste from Swiss eval. Rafale first in some area, and mainly first in all together.
Making public the report will be good for you. It will shut up the anti-Rafale camp; will also uphold the credibility of IAF caucus.
Can you give a link to Swiss Eval Report ?
 
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sasum

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Cannot say anything as the no of compititor were more with planes like F 18 and MiG 35 dominating A2G & A2A respectively and also the no of parameter were high and in more detail but Rafale will be in top 3 in most parameter.
No. of parameters were 634 I think. No contender including Rafale tick-marked more than 65-68℅ of the boxes.
 

BON PLAN

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Cannot say anything as the no of compititor were more with planes like F 18 and MiG 35 dominating A2G & A2A respectively and also the no of parameter were high and in more detail but Rafale will be in top 3 in most parameter.
Rafale is the most coherent. Very good in all aspect. Maybe not the best in any.
 

BON PLAN

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Making public the report will be good for you. It will shut up the anti-Rafale camp; will also uphold the credibility of IAF caucus.
Can you give a link to Swiss Eval Report ?
Switzerland, Evaluation report quick analysis

As the Armasuisse report is not always perfectly readable I've reproduced the charts and compiled the general appreciations for both evaluations. (NWA1 and NWA2)

NWA phase I is the first 2008 evaluation with real flight trials:
The results show a sharp advandage for the Rafale especially for Escort, Srike and Recce missions.
The Rafale is also the only aircraft that was able to engage multiple ground targets simultaneously in one pass.
The only mission where the Eurofighter almost catches up with the Rafale is Air Policing. The Gripen is definitively not in the same leage as far as Air to Air missions are concerned. However, we note that it is ranked slightly above the Eurofighter for Air to Ground and Recce missions.


See the Swiss Air Force appreciations in the table below. Their final recommendation in all missions is the Rafale with the Eurofighter as a possible alternative.



NWA phase II is the second evaluation conduced in 2009 based on technical data of 2015 scheduled capabilities provided by the 3 manufacturers. (see upgrades below)




The results and appreciations below :
Again the ranking remains the same with the Rafale clearly in front especially for Strike and Recce missions.


The Swiss Air Force appreciations when the upgrades are taken into account are in the table below. Their final recommendation in all missions is still the Rafale with the Eurofighter as a possible alternative.




Each mission effectiveness is an average a several sub-taks effectiveness relevant to the given mission.

The detail sub-task ranking is only available for the Air policing mission (see below)
This is the mission where the Typhoon is ranked almost as good as the Rafale due to superior aircraft performance (apparently mainly related to its high climb rate and capabiliy to supercruise at mach1.4), slightly better pilot workload (Direct voice Input for recurrent basic tasks would explain that) and slighly better engagement (which could be explained by higher altidute/speed/missile max range)


It is worth noting that the Air Policing mission, although important, is a quite low risk mission. In more challenging Air to Air task such as OCA or DCA missions where the target can be highly dangerous and where ECM/RCS become of primary relevance, the Rafale seems to prevail with a more comfortable margin.
 

PaliwalWarrior

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Switzerland, Evaluation report quick analysis

As the Armasuisse report is not always perfectly readable I've reproduced the charts and compiled the general appreciations for both evaluations. (NWA1 and NWA2)

NWA phase I is the first 2008 evaluation with real flight trials:
The results show a sharp advandage for the Rafale especially for Escort, Srike and Recce missions.
The Rafale is also the only aircraft that was able to engage multiple ground targets simultaneously in one pass.
The only mission where the Eurofighter almost catches up with the Rafale is Air Policing. The Gripen is definitively not in the same leage as far as Air to Air missions are concerned. However, we note that it is ranked slightly above the Eurofighter for Air to Ground and Recce missions.


See the Swiss Air Force appreciations in the table below. Their final recommendation in all missions is the Rafale with the Eurofighter as a possible alternative.



NWA phase II is the second evaluation conduced in 2009 based on technical data of 2015 scheduled capabilities provided by the 3 manufacturers. (see upgrades below)




The results and appreciations below :
Again the ranking remains the same with the Rafale clearly in front especially for Strike and Recce missions.


The Swiss Air Force appreciations when the upgrades are taken into account are in the table below. Their final recommendation in all missions is still the Rafale with the Eurofighter as a possible alternative.




Each mission effectiveness is an average a several sub-taks effectiveness relevant to the given mission.

The detail sub-task ranking is only available for the Air policing mission (see below)
This is the mission where the Typhoon is ranked almost as good as the Rafale due to superior aircraft performance (apparently mainly related to its high climb rate and capabiliy to supercruise at mach1.4), slightly better pilot workload (Direct voice Input for recurrent basic tasks would explain that) and slighly better engagement (which could be explained by higher altidute/speed/missile max range)


It is worth noting that the Air Policing mission, although important, is a quite low risk mission. In more challenging Air to Air task such as OCA or DCA missions where the target can be highly dangerous and where ECM/RCS become of primary relevance, the Rafale seems to prevail with a more comfortable margin.

Very nice

Did the Swiss still buy it ?
 

sasum

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Very nice

Did the Swiss still buy it ?
Ha ha ha...viewers have also noted how silly, the report reads. The table and chart attribute the relative merits to "pilot impression" rather than bench-mark statistics. Whims & fancies of a few pilots matter more than the performance related data of each sub-systems. And what do they mean by Air Policing, Escort, Reconnaissance ? Are these missions important or matter at all for a front-line fighter-jet ?These tasks can be performed by any 3rd generation plane without much vaunted SPECTRA, Stealth or super-cruise ability. The report tried to bench-mark performance against F-18 C/D (the obsolete variants, production of which stopped in 2000 !!) that itself didn't participate !!!!!
And @BON PLAN has the audacity to say Indian Evaluation is a "cut-paste" of the poorly appraised Swiss Report?
Swiss Govt bought Gripen against tremendous lobbying speaks a lot about actual performance of Rafale. As we all know a fighter-jet which looks unbeatable on paper may turn out pretty ordinary in the sky.
Having said that it is a fact that Rafale has better Avionics Suit than Gripen, but SAAB traded off better avionics for cheaper price.
 

Big Pic

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Stoic Silence: Dead End Looming Large for Rafale in India
India's stiff position on a lower price along with the negative impact of the AgustaWestland chopper scam are likely to be the nail in the coffin of the India-France Rafale deal.

NEW DELHI (Sputnik) — The alleged corruption in the scrapped AgustWestland helicopter deal and the obstinate position of both sides over the cost of the deal are threatening to send the protracted negotiations into cold storage forever.

>>>Bharat Karnad<<<


http://sputniknews.com/military/20160517/1039732508/india-rafale-deal-security.html
This name kill this news...This guy had not credibility, you can read the crap on his blog. BTW, sputnik is the former Pravda...
 

Big Pic

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Are these missions important or matter at all for a front-line fighter-jet ?These tasks can be performed by any 3rd generation plane without much vaunted SPECTRA, Stealth or super-
In a sense, you are right...Tornadoes doing pretty well against ISIS in Iraq while the is EF doing airshows for the Queen. BTW, where is the Gripen? So, enjoy your vodka or your coke, depending of your choice. However the Rafale prove "to be potent" in recent years despite Rusky or Anglo-Yankee propaganda..
 

BON PLAN

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Very nice

Did the Swiss still buy it ?
NO. They choose the Gripen, because more affordable; and at those time there was politics problems between Swiss and France about fiscal paradise.... But a public votation stopped the process.
Next year the Swiss will open a new bid.
 
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BON PLAN

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Ha ha ha...viewers have also noted how silly, the report reads. The table and chart attribute the relative merits to "pilot impression" rather than bench-mark statistics. Whims & fancies of a few pilots matter more than the performance related data of each sub-systems. And what do they mean by Air Policing, Escort, Reconnaissance ? Are these missions important or matter at all for a front-line fighter-jet ?These tasks can be performed by any 3rd generation plane without much vaunted SPECTRA, Stealth or super-cruise ability. The report tried to bench-mark performance against F-18 C/D (the obsolete variants, production of which stopped in 2000 !!) that itself didn't participate !!!!!
And @BON PLAN has the audacity to say Indian Evaluation is a "cut-paste" of the poorly appraised Swiss Report?
Swiss Govt bought Gripen against tremendous lobbying speaks a lot about actual performance of Rafale. As we all know a fighter-jet which looks unbeatable on paper may turn out pretty ordinary in the sky.
Having said that it is a fact that Rafale has better Avionics Suit than Gripen, but SAAB traded off better avionics for cheaper price.
All the 3 planes were tested against the same reference : F18, which is the best horse Swiss air force has. If I remember well F18 is rated 6 in all the fields.

Datas are one thing, but who except pilots can explain a feeling about how these datas are used inside the cockpit ? Swiss people are very pragmatic.

No special mention in this report about stealth, super cruise, romulean cap of Spectra.... just cold facts => Rafale far ahead. Now and tomorrow.:cool1:
 

PaliwalWarrior

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No, they rejected in a referendum...Maybe you need to cultivate yourself...BTW, I notice that you can wnow rite "Dassault" properly. Bravo...

That's all you have left to do - point out spell errors rather than discuss substance
 

PaliwalWarrior

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NO. They choose the Gripen, because more affordable; and at those time there was politics problems between Swiss and France about fiscal paradise.... But a public votation stopped the process.
Next year the Swiss will open a new bid.

Will the rafale become more affordable next year ?
 

PaliwalWarrior

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All the 3 planes were tested against the same reference : F18, which is the best horse Swiss air force has. If I remember well F18 is rated 6 in all the fields.

Datas are one thing, but who except pilots can explain a feeling about how these datas are used inside the cockpit ? Swiss people are very pragmatic.

No special mention in this report about stealth, super cruise, romulean cap of Spectra.... just cold facts => Rafale far ahead. Now and tomorrow.:cool1:

Facts and pilot feeling don't gel together

Either it is cold facts hard numbers

Or

It is just pilots feelings

How do you equate feelings with facts ?
 

sasum

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Facts and pilot feeling don't gel together

Either it is cold facts hard numbers

Or

It is just pilots feelings

How do you equate feelings with facts ?
Moreover, pilot feeling is subjective. If you choose a pilot who fancies a particular aircraft, he will find all kinds of imaginary merits. On the other hand a genuinely good warplane may elicit an "ugh" from a biased pilot/ handler. Here, I am not even talking of other 'incentives' that companies push thru to influence the choice.
 

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