Know Your 'Rafale'

[Tactical Frog]

And now this http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ndia-postpone-s-400-triumf-purchase/84220716/

scratching head.

 

[Gessler]

MRCA Malaysia: Its Typhoon or Rafale
Marhalim Abas May 11, 2016 Malaysia - RMAF



SHAH ALAM: DESPITE the current travails, it appears that the MRCA programme is inching towards the final stage. And the aircraft shortlisted has been cut to two. Unsurprisingly, the two are the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale.

Industry and ministry officials said although Boeing and Saab are aware of the latest developments they are still plugging away their planes as no contract have been signed yet. That said however if the funding magically appears tomorrow, it will be either the Typhoon or Rafale that will be chosen.

The decision on the MRCA could be made soon, I am told though funding remained the biggest issue on the table. As both UK and France offers funding options under a government-to-government deal the tricky issue could be resolved, I am told.


Eurofighter Typhoon in Kuwaiti Air Force colours. Finmeccanica.
If we go for the proposed funding options, the payment period for the aircraft may well spread out for at least 10 years based on statements made by the Defence Minister in the past. I am no finance expert but I think it could go up to 20 years. Which also mean that we will only get 18 jets only and not more.


A Rafale pictured in a F3R standard weapon load, AASM Hammer for strike missions and MICA and Meteor missiles for air-to-air work and extra fuel tanks.
As which one is the more likely candidate for the MRCA programme, my guess is as good as yours. Both aircraft have their own merits so at the end of the day the political considerations will tip the scale.


A model of a Tranche 3 Eurofighter Typhoon complete with dorsal fuel tanks at BAE Systems showcase


What about the proposals about buying Hornets from Kuwait then? That is only a proposal made in this website, it was never AFAIK considered by the government.


Typhoon and the moon


Furthermore, how will the MRCA programme affect other projects of the Armed Forces? Little or no impact actually as the major programmes – the AV8, A400M and LCS – are already accounted for. It is this army/air force centric funding that leaves the navy scrambling to find funds for its own recapitalisation plans. That resulted in the proposed 15 to 5 plan.

— Malaysian Defence

Because Rafale cost less than EF, and Malaysia not a rich country, it's a nice news for the Rafale team.

Malaysia has a history of following in IAF's footsteps in aircraft acquisition. Infact their decision to buy the Flanker came only after they had closely evaluated the IAF's Su-30MKI, and the resulting Mayasian version, the MKM, is based off the MKI airframe.

Malaysian AF personnel also routinely train with IAF, this interaction increased after their induction of Su-30MKM as we now share data, maintenance procedures/practices etc.

It's highly likely that their future purchase could be heavily influenced by IAF's selection. If it does, this would be a win-win for all 3 countries - especially if we get to supply components for their future fleet from the production lines here (for both aerostructures and supporting systems like HMDS, AASM etc.).

But speaking more pessimistically, let's wait for the Indian deal to get sorted out first!

 

[smestarz]

When India purchases something, the other countries mostly from South East Asia pay close attention and even seek advice from MoD. Let us see how it goes, But as per me, Malaysia would best served buying Su-35S,
Malaysia is group of mainly two land masses one is connected to Thailand and other is part of Kalimantan the major part of this island is ruled by Indonesia.The Malacca strait which is vital for south east asia trade route passes between Malaysia and Sumatra, making Malaysia the important door keepers of Asian business.
Also their maritime border is threatened by China who now seems to "approach" with air bases in the sea.
Thus malaysia will mostly require long range and powerful planes that can ensure thier maritime border which Su-35 is well capable to do. As I understand that Malaysia buying a "medium" plane will restrict it to mainly defensive roles which is a losing proposition against country like China

Malaysia has a history of following in IAF's footsteps in aircraft acquisition. Infact their decision to buy the Flanker came only after they had closely evaluated the IAF's Su-30MKI, and the resulting Mayasian version, the MKM, is based off the MKI airframe.

Malaysian AF personnel also routinely train with IAF, this interaction increased after their induction of Su-30MKM as we now share data, maintenance procedures/practices etc.

It's highly likely that their future purchase could be heavily influenced by IAF's selection. If it does, this would be a win-win for all 3 countries - especially if we get to supply components for their future fleet from the production lines here (for both aerostructures and supporting systems like HMDS, AASM etc.).

But speaking more pessimistically, let's wait for the Indian deal to get sorted out first!

 

[Gessler]

When India purchases something, the other countries mostly from South East Asia pay close attention and even seek advice from MoD. Let us see how it goes, But as per me, Malaysia would best served buying Su-35S,
Malaysia is group of mainly two land masses one is connected to Thailand and other is part of Kalimantan the major part of this island is ruled by Indonesia.The Malacca strait which is vital for south east asia trade route passes between Malaysia and Sumatra, making Malaysia the important door keepers of Asian business.
Also their maritime border is threatened by China who now seems to "approach" with air bases in the sea.
Thus malaysia will mostly require long range and powerful planes that can ensure thier maritime border which Su-35 is well capable to do. As I understand that Malaysia buying a "medium" plane will restrict it to mainly defensive roles which is a losing proposition against country like China

Malaysia operates a multitude of older light/medium aircraft like Northrop F-5, MiG-29 and less than a dozen F/A-18C/D Hornets (not SH). They will all be rendered obsolete within next 10 years unless atleast the Fulcrum & Hornet receive extensive (and expensive) deep-upgrades. Not worth the money considering the small fleets.

Su-30MKM is already there in heavy category for long-distance reach. What they need now is a good medium fighter that can replace older aircraft and provide a backup for the Flanker. Because relying on a single type is a recipe for disaster. They'd preferably have one with minimal strings attached - and as Russian planes don't seem to be part of the shopping list, Rafale makes a lot of sense for them as well.

I'm not sure about Su-35S making it anywhere in RMAF, they'd rather buy the FGFA/PAK-FA sometime in mid or late 2020s. In the distant future, it can serve as a replacement for MKM.

 

[Gessler]

Sorry buddy @harsh for the late reply, but I was banned on this thread and then I was caught up with other posts. Totally forgot we were having this discussion before I was banned.

Man you can't understand. Quality and quantity are different aspects. Both are important. You can not fill one with another. you must trade off between the two.

Which is precisely what we're doing by going for a combination of high-cost and low-cost aircraft. MKI & Tejas will cost lesser than Rafale, but will be procured in greater numbers. Rafale on the other hand will be fewer in total, but individually will be more sophisticated, will cost more and have higher availability rates.

Mig 21 beat f 15
Yes that news is right but I can't expect more from a brochure reading intellectual like you. You read the headline and forget to read the article.
In that particular excersice IAF using su 30 mki like AWACS. Its radar has 400 km range. So attacks are easy for mig 21 and defence is difficult for f15
F 15 is facing a legendary dog fighter with radar like mki. f15 lost just because of superior tactics of IAF.

It seems you haven't read ANYTHING really, let alone brochures. The Su-30MKIs were NOT used in Cope India 2004 - I don't know what shit source told you that. Only the older Su-30K was used - which was an interim procurement of IAF which were later transferred to Belarus.

And no, it did not perform any mini-AWACS role...why would it do that when the big-a$$ E-3 Sentry was in the theater?? The Su-30Ks were used as escorts for the E-3.

About radars, at that point all we had was the N011M Mk-1...a very old basic version of Bars radar. And even then the AN/APG-63(v)1 on the F-15Cs would have been no better or worse than them.

Rafale has no stealth it is just a 4th gen.

Can you even define stealth? The point is not about becoming invisible, it's about staying invisible for as long as possible. Rafale can stay like that for a much, much longer period than any Flanker. FACT.

If rafale has stealth then our lca is far more steathier than rafale.

.

It's also a lot less capable; And in order to equate the effect of a single Rafale with it's 1 radar, 2 engines, 1 pilot and 1 ground crew....you have to procure 3 LCAs, 3 engines, 3 radars, 3 pilots and 3 ground crews.

Rafale can take better payload I agree. But less thrust engine makes it less powerful. ( smallest in category).

This is what I call is a pointless wiener-measuring contest. Rafale can supercruise even with those "weak" engines - that itself should show you how efficient the engines are and what a well-designed airframe with minimal drag Rafale has.

Its like 500 cc royal Enfield which take more payload than 1000 cc yamaha R1. Later one has more powerful engine but can take less payload but R1 is fast racing bike and royal Enfield is like
Tez to chalti ni chal hal laga k khet hi joot le isse.

Please....stop drawing such irrelevant comparisons.

Rafale AoA just limited to 30. May be you can claim more ( which is a lie)
But not even close to su 30.

IAF Rafale comes with HMDS from the outset so high-AoA is not a necessity any more.

Rafale doesn't have thrust vectoring.

Doesn't really need it. If it can get the better of a 5th generation supermaneuverable TVC fighter like F-22 in a dogfight, it can rape any plane deployed by PAF or PLAAF in the foreseeable future.

Mki has armaments from all over world. We can integrate whatever we want. Even bharmos and astra tested first on su 30. So we can have all weapons on mki which are in our inventory

Incorrect.

We cannot mate BVR weapons from West/Israel on MKI - the radar's coding does not allow that. The reverse (Russian radar-guided weapons with Israeli radar) is not possible either. It's the reason why we cannot have Derby BVRAAM on MKI and also the reason why we cannot incorporate the R-77 on the present Tejas version.

Rafale is just have usa and franch expensive weapons.

Nonsense - are you even following the deal? The business of incorporating Astra BVRAAM (with Indian seeker) as well as any weapon that does not directly depend on Rafale's own radar for guidance (that includes BrahMos-NG and even the NG-ARM) is already included as part of the negotiations. The necessary integration codes will be shared.

All the freedom we have with MKI wrt to weapons integration, we will have with Rafale, as well.

We integrated lightening pod on then if we want than we can integrate whatever pod we want.

Because you don't have to sync it's active transmissions with the Russian radar.

You can do the same on Rafale also.

In Kargil, we could integrate LITENING & Israeli LGBs on Mirage-2000 because even then France readily shared the necessary data.

We even have tarang radar a to g on mki develop by drdo.
So mki is flexible platform which can be developed as per our wish and can have capability whatever we like.
So mki is platform which is not limited to any country.
Rafale is just a aircraft with limited technology (only franch).

Can you prove with a proper statement that France has declined access to modifying Rafale?

But keep in mind that such question of modification does not arise until and unless the indigenous system in question is actually better or more reliable than the foreign one.

3 su 30 is always better than 1 rafale in any role.

Apparently IAF does not think so. Neither does GoI, MoD or the MoF.

Not even the CAG.

 

[su35]

We cannot mate BVR weapons from West/Israel on MKI - the radar's coding does not allow that. The reverse (Russian radar-guided weapons with Israeli radar) is not possible either. It's the reason why we cannot have Derby BVRAAM on MKI and also the reason why we cannot incorporate the R-77 on the present Tejas version.

Any source that R 77 cannot be incorprated in Tejas. Wiki says Tejas can have R 77

 

[Gessler]

Any source that R 77 cannot be incorprated in Tejas. Wiki says Tejas can have R 77

Wiki can be edited by any tom, dick and Harry with an Internet connection.

Integrating R77 is not possible until and unless Israel shares the radar integration codes. Evidently, that could not be done and we are forced to buy Israeli BVRAAM for Tejas.

Integrating Astra on Tejas is also not possible until we replace it's Russian-sourced seeker (from the same family as the R77 seeker) with an indigenous one.

 

[smestarz]

One of the points that I understand about Rafale is that, if it does not have some capability, then the Dassault and French say that its not required or not important, Rafale cannot super cruise, The definition of super cruise is much different than what Rafale can do, and the point Rafale camp does it that if its able to do just 10% of something than it means that its capable of doing it.
Many people talk of SPECTRA and its ability to keep Rafale invisible, yet its tracked by Russian Radars.
Maybe if the french start writing "This plane is invisible" on the fuselage, maybe people would try and believe it.
Every plane now, thanks to RAM coating will having VLO, but that does not mean immunity or being invisible on Radar, simply LO and still very visible and trackable

 

[Tactical Frog]

Spectra is not about invisibility but all about counter-measures ... it is boring to have again and again these discussions.
Just bumped into this fantastic blog of @SajeevJino . It is an old entry, so it is not like these things have been hidden to the attention of DFI members for years ... Please read it and read it again if you haven't done yet.

http://sajeevpearlj.blogspot.fr/p/blog-page_2.html

 

[Saichand K]

Wiki can be edited by any tom, dick and Harry with an Internet connection.

Integrating R77 is not possible until and unless Israel shares the radar integration codes. Evidently, that could not be done and we are forced to buy Israeli BVRAAM for Tejas.

Integrating Astra on Tejas is also not possible until we replace it's Russian-sourced seeker (from the same family as the R77 seeker) with an indigenous one.

Seeker on Astra missile had been indigenised as pointed by analyst Saurav Jha in one of his tweets. Tejas did fire Russian R-77 missile in Iron Fist -2016.

 

[sasum]

@smestarz . Rafale can indeed supercruise with a load of 6 missiles. Some other site stated 4 missiles. Below is an old table which may not reflect current status. T/W ratio of Rafale is without extra fuel and only 2 missiles, not with full load as shown here. Similarly there may be other inaccuracies. Supercruise also has several factors like payload, altitude of flight & whether flying into or against the wind (drag factor).
F-35. Gripen. Typhoon Rafale

 

[Gessler]

Seeker on Astra missile had been indigenised as pointed by analyst Saurav Jha in one of his tweets.

The sooner it happens, the better.

But let's not forget it's going to take a lot of testing & re-testing to validate this seeker and prove to IAF that it's atleast as capable as the Russian one.

Tejas did fire Russian R-77 missile in Iron Fist -2016.

That was an R-73E infrared-guided within-visual range (WVR) AAM.

These type of missiles with IR seekers do not need to be actively integrated with the radar in order to work - R77 on the other hand has an RF-based seeker and needs to be linked directly to the Fire-Control radar on the launch aircraft in order to work against targets at beyond visual range.

R-77 (RVV-AE) Radar-guided BVRAAM (NATO reporting name AA-12 Adder)

R-73/73E IR-guided WVRAAM (NATO reporting name AA-11 Archer)

Tejas firing R-73E WVRAAM

The only BVR weapon Tejas can accept so far is the Israeli Derby-ER. This was tested recently from Tejas, although it was only fired in a Ballistic Non-Guided (BNG) mode. Which means although it's mechanically integrated, it's not yet fully electronically integrated (slaved to the radar) with Tejas. That development should happen sometime in the future.

 

[BON PLAN]

@smestarz . Rafale can indeed supercruise with a load of 6 missiles. Some other site stated 4 missiles. Below is an old table which may not reflect current status. T/W ratio of Rafale is without extra fuel and only 2 missiles, not with full load as shown here. Similarly there may be other inaccuracies. Supercruise also has several factors like payload, altitude of flight & whether flying into or against the wind (drag factor).
F-35. Gripen. Typhoon Rafale
View attachment 8622

View attachment 8621

GRIPEN doesn't have better TW ratio than Rafale. Neither better range : it is BS.

 

[smestarz]

Maybe you should explain that to your fellow fans who ae potraying Rafale as a stealth plane thanks to SPECTRA

Spectra is not about invisibility but all about counter-measures ... it is boring to have again and again these discussions.
Just bumped into this fantastic blog of @SajeevJino . It is an old entry, so it is not like these things have been hidden to the attention of DFI members for years ... Please read it and read it again if you haven't done yet.

http://sajeevpearlj.blogspot.fr/p/blog-page_2.html

 

[Sam Biswas]

GRIPEN doesn't have better TW ratio than Rafale. Neither better range : it is BS.

Rafale is a plain Jane 4th gen fighter jet with a lot of hoopla. If it were any better, it would have sold well to many countries in Europe and Asia. Only countries bought it are with very low caliber Air forces. So I don't understand all the BS about Rafale.

 

[Saichand K]

The sooner it happens, the better.

But let's not forget it's going to take a lot of testing & re-testing to validate this seeker and prove to IAF that it's atleast as capable as the Russian one.



That was an R-73E infrared-guided within-visual range (WVR) AAM.

These type of missiles with IR seekers do not need to be actively integrated with the radar in order to work - R77 on the other hand has an RF-based seeker and needs to be linked directly to the Fire-Control radar on the launch aircraft in order to work against targets at beyond visual range.

R-77 (RVV-AE) Radar-guided BVRAAM (NATO reporting name AA-12 Adder)

R-73/73E IR-guided WVRAAM (NATO reporting name AA-11 Archer)

Tejas firing R-73E WVRAAM

The only BVR weapon Tejas can accept so far is the Israeli Derby-ER. This was tested recently from Tejas, although it was only fired in a Ballistic Non-Guided (BNG) mode. Which means although it's mechanically integrated, it's not yet fully electronically integrated (slaved to the radar) with Tejas. That development should happen sometime in the future.

Wow Great info man... Thanks...

 

[Tactical Frog]

Rafale is a plain Jane 4th gen fighter jet with a lot of hoopla. If it were any better, it would have sold well to many countries in Europe and Asia. Only countries bought it are with very low caliber Air forces. So I don't understand all the BS about Rafale.

No problem. Everyone has their own limitations !

Even if France had offered Rafale only to Nato members and sold zero it still would be a good jet

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale is a plain Jane 4th gen fighter jet with a lot of hoopla. If it were any better, it would have sold well to many countries in Europe and Asia. Only countries bought it are with very low caliber Air forces. So I don't understand all the BS about Rafale.

Egypte a small caliber force? with more than 200 x F16, including block 52. Mirage 2000 (old model) and now Rafale + Mig 35 .....

US people think there is only one high caliber air force : USAF+US marines+US navy.

 

[Tactical Frog]

China, Pakistan Team Up But Where are India's Rafales?

THE CITIZEN BUREAU
Monday, May 16,2016
NEW DELHI: The clouds seem to be settling over the Rafale fighter deal, with Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar still giving conflicting versions of the status. From an assurance that the discussions were in an advanced stage and the deal was to be clinched “quite soon” he has shifted within weeks to a written response to a question in Parliament saying that discussions were still going on, and did not indicate a time frame.

This despite serious alarm bells rung by Vice Chief of the Indian Air Force Air Marshal B.S.Dhanoa who said at a press conference, “Our numbers are not adequate to fully execute an air campaign in a two-front scenario. Probability of a two-front scenario is an appreciation which you need to do. But are the numbers adequate? No. The squadrons are winding down.”

“We have conveyed our concerns. The government is seized of the problem. It signed the 36 aircraft (Rafale) on G2G basis because of the depletion in squadron numbers,” the IAF Chief said.

Two years ago National Security Advisor Ajit Doval had also referred to the possibility of two front war at a media conclave with, “India has two neighbours, both nuclear powers (which) have a strategic relationship and a shared adversarial view of India.” At that time Doval had spoken of “economic interdependence” as the weapon to build peace in South Asia.

This is not to be seen as the government completes two terms in office, instead tensions between India and China have suddenly spiked over Pakistan. Beijing opposed India’s proposal to sanction JeM chief Masood Azhar in the United Nations; and more recently has sought to block its entry into the Nuclear Suppliers Group by maintaining that both India and Pakistan should be made members, and not the one over the other. A US Pentagon report has spoken of China’s hostility towards India, with the current bonhomie between Beijing and Islamabad raising concerns in New Delhi.

The Indian military works strategically to prepare for wars and for long has been clamouring for the weaponry required to stall a two front offensive. The Rafale deal, now stuck in never ending negotiations for over a year, is not likely to open the doors to this bounty with the military getting used to a “long delay” in meeting its hardware requirements.

The politicisation of procurements has further set the clock back, as the AgustaWestland decibels have sent out a clear and loud message to the military top brass: do not sign any order, you do not know when you will have to pay for it. The high voltage debate in Parliament and outside on the AgustaWestland deal in which former IAF chief Tyagi is being questioned, sources said, will slow down defence procurements at all levels. As a retired officer said, “who will now sign the bottom line, no official will as he might be hauled up even after he has retired by another government of the day for kickbacks that he might know nothing of.” The Defence Ministers casual reference to the former IAF chief in Parliament has been seen as “insulting” by the men in uniform with concern running high about the wilful targeting of former chiefs.

Dassault had secured the deal for 126 aircraft, and after talks with the new Modi government the French were confident that the deal would be closed by the end of 2014. Instead it got stuck in price negotiations and guarantee clauses with PM Modi making the grand announcement in 2015 of procuring 36 Rafale in ready to fly condition. This dramatic gesture was hailed by both the French and Indian strategic establishment although the weeks confirmed the initial suspicion that this was not backed by a substantive assessment. Over a year later the Rafale deal remains bogged in a series of issues to do with price and legalities, while the IAF resigns itself to working with 33 squadrons instead of the sanctioned 42. And to the disturbing fact that the serviceability of the existing aircraft is poor, in that of every 100 aircraft only 55 are available at any point in time. The rest are under service.

Source : http://www.thecitizen.in/index.php/...Pakistan-Team-Up-But-Where-are-Indias-Rafales

 

[sorcerer]

China, Pakistan Team Up But Where are India's Rafales?


Source : http://www.thecitizen.in/index.php/...Pakistan-Team-Up-But-Where-are-Indias-Rafales

pak and china has always been teaming up with skirmishes at borders... Rafaela or not... them pests will pester. Nothing new in it and India has always successfully used coercive measures to counter them.
pak cant afford a war with India..nor china can afford a war trodden pak.

The politicisation of procurements has further set the clock back, as the AgustaWestland decibels have sent out a clear and loud message to the military top brass: do not sign any order, you do not know when you will have to pay for it. The high voltage debate in Parliament and outside on the AgustaWestland deal in which former IAF chief Tyagi is being questioned, sources said, will slow down defence procurements at all levels. As a retired officer said, “who will now sign the bottom line, no official will as he might be hauled up even after he has retired by another government of the day for kickbacks that he might know nothing of.” The Defence Ministers casual reference to the former IAF chief in Parliament has been seen as “insulting” by the men in uniform with concern running high about the wilful targeting of former chiefs.

:bs:


Is this another example of Paid Journalism by Defense companies like that done in Augusta Westland case?