Know Your 'Rafale'

[Gessler]

When Dassault submitted proposal under MMRCA, it promised to help India set up a Gallium based semiconductor chip foundry as part of offset.

Dassault does not make any radars or GaN MESFETs. That is Thales' department.

How Dassault can submit a proposal promising something that is under Thales control, I do not know.

What is your source?

 

[Gessler]

Wit coming coming of QWIP sensor IRST can see more wavelength like the heat caused by friction on aircraft surface (similar is being planned for missile )at which frequency DIRCM does not work at present .With coming of IR operating in multiple wavelength at same time jamming will be much more difficult

A blinding laser can always have a much wider spectrum of coverage than a seeker....as even building a wider-spectrum laser is technologically less complex and cheaper than building an IRST that covers multiple wavelengths.

The only way to effectively block out the effects of DIRCM is if your IRST is programmed specifically to reject (or count-out) such pulses of directed energy. But such algorithms are never fool-proof and more often than not cripple the IRST's ability to distinguish between certain variations of heat.

 

[sasum]

Dassault does not make any radars or GaN MESFETs. That is Thales' department.

How Dassault can submit a proposal promising something that is under Thales control, I do not know.

What is your source?

Excerpts from Bharat Karnad's Blog:-
An egregious example is that Dassault, as part of the Rafale contract, has promised gallium nitride (GaN) technology to make semi-conductor chips utilised in high-powered avionics but refused to part with technology for the foundries to fabricate the chips! India will thus pay through its nose for technology that cannot be converted into a component, which will end up being imported for the lifetime of the aircraft.
https://bharatkarnad.com/2014/10/03/impending-mmrca-waste/

 

[Gessler]

Excerpts from Bharat Karnad's Blog:-
An egregious example is that Dassault, as part of the Rafale contract, has promised gallium nitride (GaN) technology to make semi-conductor chips utilised in high-powered avionics but refused to part with technology for the foundries to fabricate the chips! India will thus pay through its nose for technology that cannot be converted into a component, which will end up being imported for the lifetime of the aircraft.
https://bharatkarnad.com/2014/10/03/impending-mmrca-waste/

Bharat Karnad is, as always, spewing bullshit. I've been reading his articles for last 6 years and I should know. He doesn't have a basic understanding of anything related to military OR economics for that matter.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Dassault does not make any radars or GaN MESFETs. That is Thales' department.

How Dassault can submit a proposal promising something that is under Thales control, I do not know.

What is your source?

Tjales is part of dasault group no ? With dasault having substantial holding in Thales

Thales safran snecma dasault work as a team

All of the above were spread by rafale lobby

Using the same logic how can dasault promise India tot in areas if subs and other sectors that you were claiming & some guy was claiming when those companies are not under dasault control ?

 

[Gessler]

Tjales is part of dasault group no ? With dasault having substantial holding in Thales

Thales safran snecma dasault work as a team

All of the above were spread by rafale lobby

Thales Group is different from Dassault Group. I'm not aware of small stakeholdings by DA...to have control, you need majority stake. TG is a much bigger company than Dassault.

Using the same logic how can dasault promise India tot in areas if subs and other sectors that you were claiming & some guy was claiming when those companies are not under dasault control ?

That news came from French embassy, which means it was their Govt. that was involved, not Dassault source.

 

[BON PLAN]

Tjales is part of dasault group no ? With dasault having substantial holding in Thales

Thales safran snecma dasault work as a team

All of the above were spread by rafale lobby

Using the same logic how can dasault promise India tot in areas if subs and other sectors that you were claiming & some guy was claiming when those companies are not under dasault control ?

Dassault is a shareholder of Thales, 25% I think, but not the sole one. French state has 27% of Thales

 

[sasum]

Dassault does not make any radars or GaN MESFETs. That is Thales' department.

How Dassault can submit a proposal promising something that is under Thales control, I do not know.

It doesn't happen that way. In case of Rafale, Dassault is the Chief Integrator. Now, Dassault may have obtained components and sub-assemblies from hundreds of Vendors. When a customer buys an unit of Rafale Jet, he gets assurance of proper functioning, maintenance for the contracted period, supply of spares and so forth for all components of the aircraft, from Dassault, irrespective their source of origin. If India buys 36 Rafale Jets, she also buys 36 Snecma engines, 36 Thales Radars etc. Does she enter into Agreements with those Companies?
If ToT, Offsets are clauses of Agreement, Chief Integrator is responsible for fulfilment of those and not individual vendors.
Lockheed Martins is the Contractor for F-35 Lightning II. There are approx 314 sub-contrators. BAE, Raytheon, GE Aviation, Honeywell Systems, Northrop Grumman, Pratt & Whitney, UTC Aerospace, Elbit Systems are some of the components suppliers. If we enter into a contract with Lockheed Martin for purchase-cum-manufacture of JSF, shall we sign agreements with all 314 Companies?

 

[Tactical Frog]

Well firstly we should determine wether Gan technology is or isn't part of current deal, whether it was promised or not as offset at the time of MMRCA .. I am certainly not going to take for granted everything Karnad says.
Dassault and French gov control Thales. It is kind of a joint venture between them as of today. So yes, Dassault can offer TOT related with GaN, if and only if French gov is okay with this kind of TOT.

Dassault has 24,9 % stake in Thales, with 28,6 % voting rights. When Thales wins big contracts , Dassault profits too .

 

[Tactical Frog]

It is even getting more complicate if we look deeper because Thales and Airbus have a 50-50 % joint venture for chips .. United Monolithic Semiconductors.

 

[Gessler]

It doesn't happen that way. In case of Rafale, Dassault is the Chief Integrator. Now, Dassault may have obtained components and sub-assemblies from hundreds of Vendors. When a customer buys an unit of Rafale Jet, he gets assurance of proper functioning, maintenance for the contracted period, supply of spares and so forth for all components of the aircraft, from Dassault, irrespective their source of origin. If India buys 36 Rafale Jets, she also buys 36 Snecma engines, 36 Thales Radars etc. Does she enter into Agreements with those Companies?
If ToT, Offsets are clauses of Agreement, Chief Integrator is responsible for fulfilment of those and not individual vendors.
Lockheed Martins is the Contractor for F-35 Lightning II. There are approx 314 sub-contrators. BAE, Raytheon, GE Aviation, Honeywell Systems, Northrop Grumman, Pratt & Whitney, UTC Aerospace, Elbit Systems are some of the components suppliers. If we enter into a contract with Lockheed Martin for purchase-cum-manufacture of JSF, shall we sign agreements with all 314 Companies?

Dassault maybe in-charge of the technology contained within Rafale and therefore is the party to be negotiated with when asking for purchase of the jet itself.

But building a local production line for the technology also deals with obtaining licenses from the specific OEMs that hold the necessary IPRs for that product. And only that company can provide those licenses.

For example, when SAMTEL has to manufacture the HMDS, we negotiate with Thales, not Dassault.

When OIS-AT has to manufacture the Hammer AASM, we negotiate with SAGEM reps, not Dassault. Eventhough these technologies are a part & parcel of the Rafale deal, for which Dassault is in-charge. But the progression & details of each sub-contract are finally the decision of those individual companies.

@PaliwalWarrior Stuff like assistance with SSN project etc. are NOT officially part of the Rafale deal and therefore have nothing to do with Dassault. No-one knows anything about exactly what is being negotiated, and which are the parties involved.

 

[sasum]

But building a local production line for the technology also deals with obtaining licenses from the specific OEMs that hold the necessary IPRs for that product. And only that company can provide those licenses.

I have already said that if ToT is part of the Package Deal, Chief Integrator is responsible for IPR related issues of its subsidiaries and OEMs. In this case the cost includes fees for rights of all patented components. If it is a stand-alone proposal to produce a certain item/ parts, then Agreement is signed with the patent-owner of the part.
In Oct. 2000, HAL signed an agreement with Irkut of Russia for licensed production of SU-30. No separate Agreements with NPO Saturn, Phazotron- NIIP etc were signed. However, Russian Govt stood guarantee and spelt out modalities of Arbitration . Later on when upgrades were required, separate Agreements were entered into(e,g.. Samtel for HMDs).

 

[BON PLAN]

MRCA Malaysia: Its Typhoon or Rafale
Marhalim Abas May 11, 2016 Malaysia - RMAF



SHAH ALAM: DESPITE the current travails, it appears that the MRCA programme is inching towards the final stage. And the aircraft shortlisted has been cut to two. Unsurprisingly, the two are the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale.

Industry and ministry officials said although Boeing and Saab are aware of the latest developments they are still plugging away their planes as no contract have been signed yet. That said however if the funding magically appears tomorrow, it will be either the Typhoon or Rafale that will be chosen.

The decision on the MRCA could be made soon, I am told though funding remained the biggest issue on the table. As both UK and France offers funding options under a government-to-government deal the tricky issue could be resolved, I am told.


Eurofighter Typhoon in Kuwaiti Air Force colours. Finmeccanica.
If we go for the proposed funding options, the payment period for the aircraft may well spread out for at least 10 years based on statements made by the Defence Minister in the past. I am no finance expert but I think it could go up to 20 years. Which also mean that we will only get 18 jets only and not more.


A Rafale pictured in a F3R standard weapon load, AASM Hammer for strike missions and MICA and Meteor missiles for air-to-air work and extra fuel tanks.
As which one is the more likely candidate for the MRCA programme, my guess is as good as yours. Both aircraft have their own merits so at the end of the day the political considerations will tip the scale.


A model of a Tranche 3 Eurofighter Typhoon complete with dorsal fuel tanks at BAE Systems showcase


What about the proposals about buying Hornets from Kuwait then? That is only a proposal made in this website, it was never AFAIK considered by the government.


Typhoon and the moon


Furthermore, how will the MRCA programme affect other projects of the Armed Forces? Little or no impact actually as the major programmes – the AV8, A400M and LCS – are already accounted for. It is this army/air force centric funding that leaves the navy scrambling to find funds for its own recapitalisation plans. That resulted in the proposed 15 to 5 plan.

— Malaysian Defence

Because Rafale cost less than EF, and Malaysia not a rich country, it's a nice news for the Rafale team.

 

[WolfPack86]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-rafale-fighter-jets/articleshow/52230203.cms

 

[WolfPack86]

€7.25-billion: France makes its ‘best’ price offer for 36 Rafale fighter jets

NEW DELHI: The Rafale fighter deal that has been stuck for the past several months on pricing issues is likely to move ahead with a new offer from Paris that could see India paying 7.25 billion euros for 36 new jets.
The new offer from France is the lowest price being quoted for the Rafale fighters till now, though a weapons package is to be negotiated separately. Officials involved in the negotiations have told ET that the latest French offer came just over two weeks ago and could be the last price being offered for the Rafale fighter jets that are being procured by India under a government to government deal.
This is a substantial cut from the 8.8 billion Euro figure that was being quoted for the deal in BJP circles and was even advertised by its IT department as a major win for the Modi government.
Officials say that the negotiations will now only move forward after an Indian response to the offer. The two sides are also negotiating a five-year support package for the fighter jets, down from the ten-year package that was being discussed earlier. Sources say that the weapons package will be signed separately as has been the norm but the original requirement has been pruned.
This has been done as several weapons are common with the in service Mirage fighter fleet. On April 21, Parrikar had said that the Rafale deal is "in quite an advanced stage and we intend to close it quite soon". The deal has to be first approved by the defence ministry followed by which it would go for a go ahead by the Cabinet.
The offer for 7.25 billion euros for the 36 aircraft would also include an offset clause that would see French companies like Dassault and Thales investing in the Indian defence and security sector. France agreed to a 50 percent offset clause as a special case for India after the direct intervention of the Indian PMO, sources said. The investment of over 3 billion euros would be a boost for Indian defence and aerospace companies.
Several Indian companies are partnering with French companies for the offsets, including a plan to assemble aircraft parts and even a low cost executive jet in India.
Several aircraft technologies, including a special radar absorbing paint are likely to be transferred as well through the defence research and development organization.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/05/725-billion-france-makes-its-best-price.html

 

[ezsasa]

€7.25-billion: France makes its ‘best’ price offer for 36 Rafale fighter jets

NEW DELHI: The Rafale fighter deal that has been stuck for the past several months on pricing issues is likely to move ahead with a new offer from Paris that could see India paying 7.25 billion euros for 36 new jets.
The new offer from France is the lowest price being quoted for the Rafale fighters till now, though a weapons package is to be negotiated separately. Officials involved in the negotiations have told ET that the latest French offer came just over two weeks ago and could be the last price being offered for the Rafale fighter jets that are being procured by India under a government to government deal.
This is a substantial cut from the 8.8 billion Euro figure that was being quoted for the deal in BJP circles and was even advertised by its IT department as a major win for the Modi government.
Officials say that the negotiations will now only move forward after an Indian response to the offer. The two sides are also negotiating a five-year support package for the fighter jets, down from the ten-year package that was being discussed earlier. Sources say that the weapons package will be signed separately as has been the norm but the original requirement has been pruned.
This has been done as several weapons are common with the in service Mirage fighter fleet. On April 21, Parrikar had said that the Rafale deal is "in quite an advanced stage and we intend to close it quite soon". The deal has to be first approved by the defence ministry followed by which it would go for a go ahead by the Cabinet.
The offer for 7.25 billion euros for the 36 aircraft would also include an offset clause that would see French companies like Dassault and Thales investing in the Indian defence and security sector. France agreed to a 50 percent offset clause as a special case for India after the direct intervention of the Indian PMO, sources said. The investment of over 3 billion euros would be a boost for Indian defence and aerospace companies.
Several Indian companies are partnering with French companies for the offsets, including a plan to assemble aircraft parts and even a low cost executive jet in India.
Several aircraft technologies, including a special radar absorbing paint are likely to be transferred as well through the defence research and development organization.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/05/725-billion-france-makes-its-best-price.html

Effect of Parrikar saying he would like investigate all technical selections during UPA era?

 

[Tactical Frog]

Problem with this piece is that the last price quoted was 7,8 bn euros, not 8,8 bn euros.
Would be great if Economic Times could get its figures right ...

I am starting to be a bit cautious after the last NDTV announcement too maybe best to wait for MoD communique.

 

[sasum]

Effect of Parrikar saying he would like investigate all technical selections during UPA era?

Earlier offer included weapons package, costing substantial amount. Does present offer include 50% offset? or that has been done away with?
Everybody wants that MRCA technical evaluation report is made public. It will also be in tune with Govt's policy of following high level of transparency. At the same time unsuccessful bidders will also be convinced. @gadeshi posted a comment regarding evaluation process. Boeing (India) representative made some abusive remarks. SAAB & MIG spokesmen also talked of bias.

 

[smestarz]

Effect of Parrikar saying he would like investigate all technical selections during UPA era?

Hahahahaha, when press the nose, the mouth would open,,

 

[smestarz]

Problem with this piece is that the last price quoted was 7,8 bn euros, not 8,8 bn euros.
Would be great if Economic Times could get its figures right ...

I am starting to be a bit cautious after the last NDTV announcement too maybe best to wait for MoD communique.

If the numbers are not correct then how correct the article might also be in doubt.
Everyone in India know who NDTv answers to, so when NDTV announces something like this and in NON-UPA regime then there is something funny going on.
Did you notice that most of Indians "dual front" doomsday article somehow originate with NDTV or likes of it