Know Your 'Rafale'

[WolfPack86]

We are using american engines for lca tejas, tejas mk 2 and amca. Yes we must cancel rafale deal and go for f 18 advance super hornet it is cheaper than rafale.

 

[WolfPack86]

I am fed up with dassult they are wasting Indian govt time and money. we should go for f 18 advance super hornet

 

[Ved]

Wake me up when the deal is signed.

 

[smestarz]

Wake me up when the deal is signed.

You could be RIP VAN WINKLE hahahahahah

 

[smestarz]

We are using american engines for lca tejas, tejas mk 2 and amca. Yes we must cancel rafale deal and go for f 18 advance super hornet it is cheaper than rafale.

Because one plane is expensive and the deal seems a bad, it does not mean the other deal is good
Rather than going for Hornet, so its best to focus on LCA only. No point in adding another plane in the mix and then setting up store management for the parts for Hornet,
If IAF is going to end its whim for Medium MRCA. then the best solution is to go for LCA as the backbone, and Su-30 MKI as air dominance and MRCA and then in the meantime go for PAKFA/FGFA,
Also it would be important to tell our air chiefs (who we now understand at least the last few were "politically compormised" and who did comrpormise the national security of the country) to put it in a sock or get them sacked. Air chiefs should be reporting to the GOI and to Def Ministry and if the Def Min is not paying attention to something then they go to the press but apparently from the time of NAK browne the air chiefs have got used to crying loud to selected press who give them centre page like they are Playboy centrefolds.

Also I would ask the Def min that if IAF does need planes in urgency then MiG-35 or more Su-30 MKI or Su-35 with indian avionics should be the order of the day. We already have managed the spares for these planes and so should not be an isssue. Further MiG-35 is better in a way s its "medium"

Also one point, Raflae is a good plane, but now often do French pilots fly with full load? Full load will in a way stress the air frame and reduce life of the air frame, Thus there is good chance that if the Rafale and MiG-35 are fully loaded, the air frames of Rafale will end up having shorter life than MiG-35. Also when one considers the cost. At price of one Rafale can easily buy 4-5 MiG-35.. now the question is, what load Rafale carries, 2 MiG-35 can carry more than that, and yes, cost of two planes will be half of Rafale , Savings all around.

 

[kr9]

Also I would ask the Def min that if IAF does need planes in urgency then MiG-35

We do.
We don't have time to wait for the Rafales or the F-18s made in India (if they take 2 years or more).
It is frustrating & alarming in a nation surrounded by enemies to watch our Govt. move at a snails pace.

 

[manutdfan]

Just shut up, ok? I doubt you're making any sense even for yourself.

Lol what? Su-30MKI with PESA is better than J-10B+J-11B which have AESA and more powerful engines? Not to mention Su-35 that PLAAF will soon induct? Are you crazy??

And how do you hope to beat PLAAF's three types of 4.5 gen planes with just 1 type of plane for our self? We will also have 3 types of 4.5 gen planes (MKI, Rafale, Tejas Mk-2) and any 5th gen plane is in addition to that.

...and stop talking about what Russia has - the question is what we're getting. There is no argument against the facts that FSO IRST is superior to OLS-35/30. And MICA-IR is indisputably superior to R-73E missile. QWIP is in development for Russia...also in France. A QWIP-based tech is the next logical evolution of a traditional IRST.

Any plane with IRST (or scope for IRST) today will eventually evolve to have a QWIP-based IRST tomorrow. That's just how tech flows.

Bottomline is, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. You have no solid points to make - you have FAILED to prove that MKI can do better than Rafale passively.

Your only objective seems to be attacking the Rafale - but I've told one clear sentence to you :-

"If Rafale is bad, MKI is worse."

...and that single line seals the argument. We inducted MKI in early to mid-2000s based on technological requirements tabled in the late 90s. The Rafale procurement comes in the late 2010s based on ASQRs filed in late 2000s.

There is no way in hell that the present MKI can be technologically superior to the Rafale version that IAF will induct - unless you're saying that IAF is travelling backwards in time.

Whoa! Things are heating up here now.

I still don't get why ppl are arguing over Rafale Vs Sukhois even now. One cannot compare apples with oranges, simple as that. Su-30MKI is a heavyweight while Rafale a middleweight. Both are built for wholly different purposes reflecting the different combat philosophies of their origin countries. Both are superb dogfighters and both have a place in the IAF. They complement each other but cannot substitute the other.

Rafale is a damn fine aircraft and a very good choice for the IAF in terms of operational capability and technological advantage gained. IAF has historically maintained a mix of NATO and Soviet fighters, so we get the best of both worlds. Western fighters are generally superior when it comes to avionics, no questions about that.

Remember when Pakistan acquired the F-16 in the early 1980's the IAF basically went into panic mode and acquired 2 fighters- MiG-29 and Mirage 2000. The Su-30MKI was a reactionary purchase too, to counter the massive Su-27SK/J-11 fleet being fielded by the Chinese. So historically the IAF has always been playing catchup. Keeping that in mind if the IAF does end up acquiring the Rafale it would be a first in its history that it becomes a technological pioneer having no direct equivalent either in the PAF or PLAAF.

It definitely seems overpriced but considering that F-16 Block 60/62 are nowadays retailing for above $100 million (flyaway unit cost for UAE build) I wouldn't be too surprised at the price tag of $200 million each (lifecycle cost) slapped by the French. In 2010 Saudi Arabia and USA concluded a deal for 84 F-15SA fighters at $30 billion effectively pricing each unit at roughly $350 million. So all fighters in general have trebled in price over the last decade.

An alternative would be to buy out Dassault itself as I had mentioned jokingly in an old post. A year back Dassault was valued at $6 billion. Now it's valued at $10 billion. $8 billion is what's been quoted for the 36 fighters. Of course the actual unit acquisition cost is half of that and would be paid in tranches. But that's $8 billion locked away for the next 20 years. Imagine putting that money into the Tejas program. It pains me to know that Tejas's program cost till date is only $2 billion (since 1983). Imagine what could be done with that 8 billion for Tejas.

I wouldn't mind going for the full quota of 126 aircrafts, it's a more than capable replacement for the Mirage 2000 and SEPECAT Jaguar. It would give us much needed access to advanced Western tech and most critical of all- the M88 Snecma turbofan engine. Remember Tejas still runs on the American GE F404 turbofan and Kaveri is probably another decade away from completion. As long as the French give us 101% ToT, equal & unrestricted share in all future developments, with no caveats and I mean no strings attached at all, I would love to have the Rafale in my inventory.

 

[sasum]

Both are superb dogfighters and both have a place in the IAF.

"SU-30 MK I is a superb dogfighter " is an absurd statement; in fact it is a dud so far as dogfighting is concerned. This plane even lags behind F-15!
Top ten dogfighters of 2015 were:-
1. SU-35
2. F-22/A Raptor
3. Eurofighter Typhoon
4.F/A-18 Super Hornet
5. Rafael
6. Saab Gripen
7. Mig-29
8. F-16
9. Chengdu J-10
10. F-15 Eagle

 

[Gessler]

They complement each other but cannot substitute the other.

That is PRECISELY the point that most idiots on the forum seem to be missing.

I had stated the very same more than 10 pages ago, here : http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/know-your-rafale.32861/page-154#post-1157051

...it's also what the IAF Chief Arup Raha has to say;

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-02-19/news/59304999_1_sukhoi-iaf-chief-arup-raha

It is ridiculous and amusing at the same time when some amateurs and self-proclaimed defence experts on the forum (especially @smestarz ) try to question the IAF Chief himself about how to run the Air Force and what aircraft to procure...I mean, seriously??

Who do these people think they are??

 

[Gessler]

"SU-30 MK I is a superb dogfighter " is an absurd statement; in fact it is a dud so far as dogfighting is concerned. This plane even lags behind F-15!
Top ten dogfighters of 2015 were:-
1. SU-35
2. F-22/A Raptor
3. Eurofighter Typhoon
4.F/A-18 Super Hornet
5. Rafael
6. Saab Gripen
7. Mig-29
8. F-16
9. Chengdu J-10
10. F-15 Eagle

Lol, looks like a list prepared by some fanboy.

...Su-35 and Su-30MKI are both from the Flanker family and eventhough they have different engines and presence/lack of certain control surfaces (like canards), they still have very similar flight & dogfighting characteristics.

If MKI with a capability to pull 180 degrees Angle of Attack (AoA) is a dud in dogfights, then which plane exactly is an ace in this department?? Agreed that lighter, smaller fighters usually have an edge in close-range fighting, but with the inclusion of modern HMDS and off-boresight WVRAAMs, the odds are nicely evened.

...oh, and, it's saddening to see some people STILL haven't learnt to differentiate between the French fighter jet Rafale and the Israeli armaments company Rafael.

 

[smestarz]

There are different point of views. Like you say Rafales and Sukhhois are different planes yes (apples and oranges) but then both of them have the same role which is to dominate the air space and to take down enemy targets be it in air, on land or in/on the sea with the help of A2A, A2G and A2Sh weapons. Both are well armed for this purpose, but fortunately, we have Su-30 MKI in good numbers and with all the weapons that we need for these already in our inventory or are being developed and produced (like Brahmos NG)

One of the main problem with IAF is and was that its like a Fruit salad, there are too many plames in inventory. There are Jaguars, Mirage 2000, MiG-21, MiG-27, MiG-29, Hawk, Su-30 MKI, and many were ordered for some specific roles only but now with new developments some of these planes have become multi dimensional. For example Jaguar is a Deep strike plane, but during Kargil war, IAF was horrified to learn that it cannot be used to hit targets in Kargil. MiG-29 was purchased and used only as Air superiority plane, and after developments in Russia, now it is upgraded as an MRCA and its in a way able to use A2G weapons even in areas such as Kargil and will be able to do so quite successfully, and this is basically now the MiG-29 UPG. The much loved Su-30 MKI already been modified and has the capability to carry and launch A2G weapons and thus it will not only be an air dominance plane but it can be fitted to carry out A2G missions like Deep Strike, DEAD/SEAD missions without much of a hiccup.

Now many of the chair marshalls talk of different weight, We are not entering our planes in Olympics are we? Recently IAF has sent its planes for Red Flag 2016, we have sent our Su-30 MKI, what planes you think are against these planes? Only American F-15 because that is of the weight class and type as of Su-30 MKI or will it have different planes to face? In war, when facing a plane, no one looks at the weight class of the plane, For example If the PAF F-16 Block 52 are enroute to attack India, what would we answer them with, send the capable plane which is near and and intercept these planes (like LCA or Su-30 MKI ) or do we wait and then send say Mirage 2000 or MiG-29 because they are in the same class or type as F-15 Block 52.. Apples vs apples? Give it a thought. The weight class you mention is important if its a carrier based plane, because space on carrier is premium and hence heavier or bigger plane will mean less planes to carry.

And just for your argument about weight class, we already have MiG-29 and Mirage 2000 which belong to the "middle weight" that you insist on, so technically we have nice "HIMACHAL APPLES" so whats the point to add another apple say "FUJI APPLE" in the mix? So if you talk of the role, we already have MiG-29 and Su-30 MKI which fulfill the role for which Rafale is being sought, and for the weight class and role, we also have Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 UPG handling those roles, and since we already use these planes, we already have set their spare managements. So it makes better sense to order MiG-29 because its in same weight class and role as Rafale and also, we use about 100 of these planes already. What say? Now you can insist on rafale saying that well it has Mid wing, and so its more capable, or that it is designed to fly low and conduct deep penetration strikes. For these role you already have Jaguars and which are being upgraded.

The whim for Rafale in a way is like a LED TV set, you already have a nice latest 60 inch TV and you are happy with it, but then you want to buy another LED TV set which is way expensive simply because its made by SONY. I does not offer you a significant advantage over what you already have, just a different colour of Frame, but then the price of this TV is 5 times more. So IAF insists that it has to have that TV because it might lend a nice contrast to the room..

It is true, Rafale was designed to be MRCA from start, where as Su-30 MKI was developed as an air dominance plane, The reason was simple, that once you have air dominance, Any of your strike planes can conduct missions freely that is one school of thought. The other school of thought believes that Air dominance would not be achieved and hence it would be contested air space. Both schools of thought are true, Pakistan and China respectively. Russia realised it long time ago, and since they were undergoing defence cuts too (after dissolution of USSR) they felt that rather than redesigning the plane, it makes more sense to upgrade it with a good A2G pod and having A2G weapons certified on it and making it MRCA. Once the A2G weapons are dropped, the Su-30 MKI is the best air dominance and Dog fighter in South Asia. Even with A2G weapons still on the pylons, it is still one of the top A2A plane and can take care of itself.

If you see Russia, it is an evolution, earlier it relied more on many combat squadrons spread all over Russia, and then with cost cutting etc, they now use less squadrons but use more longer ranged planes, Thus one squadron of Si-30 SM does in a way replace 4 Squadrons of MiG-21 in the air space covered simply because Su-30 has a bigger combat Radius. Russia does not see itself as an air force that will wait for the enemy to attack and then send its planes to just intercept. Rather it sees itself that it will absorb the first attack and then go on offensive themselves. Indian doctrine is more defensive, where we hope to face the enemy on our grounds or contested grounds thus we want the enemy to throw punches and we shall face them and absorb them, we are not really having a doctrine which plans to have combat missions OVER ENEMY AIR SPACE only and hence limiting the action only over enemy space, Thus we have an aircraft which is developed for Air dominance (Su-30 MKI) but we do not really have an air dominance doctrine.

Rafale is designed as per requirement of European countries which are geographically small, (France might be similar in size to Rajasthan) and for them it makes sense to have small or medium range plane Having a long range plane does not really help them rather it would be adding to the cost.

Su-30 MKI is much more capable than Rafale in A2A and in an air combat, Su-30 MKI should shoot down Rafale 9 out of 10 times, and this has happened in Indo French exercise in recent past and when the Rafale fanboys are faced with this scenario they come up with the argument that its in different weight class. True that Su-30 MKI is heavy, but then does this weight hamper its ability to carry out ANY MISSION? This is the point to ask. Also any bird in IAF inventory can strike targets deep in pakistan but that is not the case with China, If India has to strike Chinese targets, it will need a plane that can carry heavy fuel and heavy load. IF Rafale is to strike say Guangzhou, (and lets say the chinese are caught unawares) then its possible with say 5 loaded external fuel tanks, what sort of war load will it be able to carry with 5 fuel tanks? Are we just planning to hit Guangzhou with A2A missiles? But on other hand, Su-30 MKI can carry out that mission with a very decent war load.

My view is that, if I am having a loaded Assault rifle, and enemy is just having a knife, it makes sense to shoot him or get him to surrender, it is stupidity to tell him "Well you can come with your assault rifle, I shall wait for you" this sounds good only in movies.

What Su-30 MKI gives india is an unfair advantage in terms of ability and that is very important in conflict, One should prefer not to go to war if you do not have an unfair ability. When two forces are balanced, the war will stretch on and it will hamper our development and also resources. But if you have an unfair advantage then you are in position to dominate the situation even wthout going to war.

Su-30 MKI was not a reactionary purchase, Rather it was well planned purchase to ensure that the threats from our neighbours are nullified, But during that time, the concept and importance of MRCA was lost to IAF and to most of the world, which were stressing more on Air superiority/Air dominance as most important role, and once that is achieve, even mediocre A2G planes can carry out strikes with impunity. Thus its only after the cost cutting became very important in most air forces the goverments saw the importance of moving away from specialised planes to MRCA that can fulfill many roles even during same mission,

 

[smestarz]

We are already seeing how "interested" or Air Chief Marshall was, haven't we? I mean if the guy was given a Free Run, we could have been buying AW helicopters at the cost of Rafales and Diaper kids like you justifying the purchase

The name Air chief Marshall Tyagi will be very synonymous for a while. Tyagi was earlier saying that he is innocent yada yada, But then how does IAF buy a chopper WITHOUT EVEN TESTING IT IN INDIA ? Seriously and this decision was taken by then serving air chief Marshall? A professional decision? When a serving ACM decides that we need AW helicopter and buys it WITHOUT EVEN TESTING how do you think he came up with the decision? I guess just by reading brochures and thats how IAF gets its ASQR. Thats how 101 HOW IAF TOP BRASS WORKS.

You can wait some more time and even Arup raha will change his tune.

You are not a defence expert so try not to pretend to be one,

No one is saying Rafale is a shit plane, but in terms of ability and numbers we are already covered (Su-30 MKI and LCA) and we dont need another new plane like Rafale which brings nothing new, in the mix.

Raha, was a capable pilot, but that does not mean he is a leader with a vision for the future. In simple terms Raha and earlier air marshals want a plane from the past to fight threats of the future. I know its too much for you to take, Give it a few more years and you will understand it kiddo

That is PRECISELY the point that most idiots on the forum seem to be missing.

I had stated the very same more than 10 pages ago, here : http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/know-your-rafale.32861/page-154#post-1157051

...it's also what the IAF Chief Arup Raha has to say;

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-02-19/news/59304999_1_sukhoi-iaf-chief-arup-raha

It is ridiculous and amusing at the same time when some amateurs and self-proclaimed defence experts on the forum (especially @smestarz ) try to question the IAF Chief himself about how to run the Air Force and what aircraft to procure...I mean, seriously??

Who do these people think they are??

 

[smestarz]

We do.
We don't have time to wait for the Rafales or the F-18s made in India (if they take 2 years or more).
It is frustrating & alarming in a nation surrounded by enemies to watch our Govt. move at a snails pace.

India was always surrounded by China and Pakistan and we realize it now? We have enough force to hit and dominate the Western Sector, the Eastern sector is where there shall be heavy contest and even loss.
No matter how many SH-18 or Rafales you dump in East, its not going to change the situation against Chinese numbers. Plane for plane in terms of ability we are even with China, but in terms of numbers, we are not even close.We shall lose in the number game. Nuimber game is two edged sword. The more you have the better for you and you can dominate your enemies, the bad side is that well it incease the cost of operations and that will then effect your budget and hence the future purchase or upgrades. So the number has to be a well calculated number which is a mix of both number and ability. Too less and we are weak, too many and it hits the budget.

 

[Zebra]

Wake me up when the deal is signed.

I am afraid, you have to go on a sleep mode at-least till 2016 year end.

 

[Zebra]

We do.
We don't have time to wait for the Rafales or the F-18s made in India (if they take 2 years or more).
It is frustrating & alarming in a nation surrounded by enemies to watch our Govt. move at a snails pace.

Buy 5/6 squadron F/A -18 E/G block 3 off the shelf.
Invite Boeing commercial aircraft manufacturing facility in India. It will bring huge business in India and creates more jobs.
Get US help and support for future aircraft carriers and submarines, in India.

Call SAAB AB to start their entire product range in India. As they also wants to be in India, as an Indian company.
Get Gripen E/F as Tejas mk2.

On top of it, Tejas mk1 made by HAL. As many as you like.

You will get a twin engine strike aircraft, an single engine Gripen E/F (as Tejas mk2) as a true multirole and an interceptor aircraft and Tejas mk1.

Best part is they all use same variant engine.

My two cents though.

 

[Archer]

Corruption in the highest ranks of the armed forces is hardly a secret to those who are aware. Most folks get very offended though if you mention it. If anyone thinks the opposition to Arjun or Tejas is merely ego, then I have a bridge I wish to sell at the cheap price of $100Mn. Cash first, delivery later.

 

[garg_bharat]

Izzat of senior officer is equal to millions of dollars of hard cash. The logic is if politicians get it, they why not military elite.

Every government servant is terribly jealous of others who have 'made it'.

It is a fact that European companies are the most corrupt and have the largest blame for corrupting our officer class.

 

[garg_bharat]

There is no option but to go for local manufacturing of weapons and supplies, even if lower in quality to what is available on the international market.

A corrupt officer class is a much bigger security risk.

 

[garg_bharat]

We may want more fighters but fighters alone will not save us in a war.

The relationship with USA is quite complex as India was never in the USA ally list. USA does not have much institutional support for India. People jump to conclusions. I have already written that this is a marriage of incompatible partners.

We have the following situation:

1. Russia has lost its preeminence in indian security establishment. So even if Russian weapons can do the job, the elite does not want it.

2. USA has what we need but prices are high and terms are bad.

3. Europeans are difficult to deal with, prices are sky high, and chances of deals failing very high.

4. May be we should try China.

5. Israel has benefited from our predicament, but israel can satisfy only a small part of our needs.

Mind it, we are in such bad position because we have failed to pay attention to our own industry. Even now not much work is being given despite existence of additional capacity in the private sector. Public sector is plagued with low efficiency.

 

[Gessler]

@smestarz @Archer An officer may or may not be corrupt. And just because one officer was corrupt does not mean all of them are. But still it does not change the facts - just because you assume/accuse everyone of corruption does not make you a better judge of things in their area of expertise - regardless of what you'd like to believe.

If at all corruption happened, it will be processed through the legal channels like happened in the AW-101 case.

The fact that you question the requirement itself (for medium-class fighters), which was successively pursued by changing Governments, top brass and foreign vendors ever since 2004...clearly shows that you're a kid trying to fill a man's shoes.