Know Your 'Rafale'

[Tactical Frog]

Hey, maybe you don't need Rafale anymore ! Look at this

http://shethepeople.tv/deepika-kumari-equals-world-record-at-archery-world-cup/

Gandhian patience ? Hell that is needed when dealing with India

 

[sasum]

the price is for a complete weapon system. So with Spectra, OSF, Radar, engines. It's just logic.

Extract from IDN:-
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/04/rafale-fighter-jet-deal-with-france.html?m=1

.......“While the government is keen to bring down the costs of the aircraft to as low as euro 7-8 billion, there is no way France will give a fully loaded aircraft at that price. India might be forced to then pay just for the platform and for add-ons pay extra money,” a senior official explained.

 

[harsh]

Extract from IDN:-
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/04/rafale-fighter-jet-deal-with-france.html?m=1

.......“While the government is keen to bring down the costs of the aircraft to as low as euro 7-8 billion, there is no way France will give a fully loaded aircraft at that price. India might be forced to then pay just for the platform and for add-ons pay extra money,” a senior official explained.

Customer is king and still if any one don't want to follow written agreement then that stupid country is free to loose one of the world's biggest defence market (India).

We (Indians ) are not begging for this aircraft. The line is long to provide us a aircraft. Rafale can be good can be bad. It is just old(4th gen). Still waiting for oders.

Itni akard k sath 1 paisa bi ni milega bheek magte rahe isiliye 36 le rahe the lagta h kismat me vo bi ni aayege.

And this is not 1st time india is buying aircraft. We buy su 30 mki and their is no problem we face on that contract. If franch don't change their attitude then they are going to loose this deal and we will go for f18 or mig 35 or su 35 whoever give us better deal.

 

[BON PLAN]

Customer is king and still if any one don't want to follow written agreement then that stupid country is free to loose one of the world's biggest defence market (India).

We (Indians ) are not begging for this aircraft. The line is long to provide us a aircraft. Rafale can be good can be bad. It is just old(4th gen). Still waiting for oders.

Itni akard k sath 1 paisa bi ni milega bheek magte rahe isiliye 36 le rahe the lagta h kismat me vo bi ni aayege.

And this is not 1st time india is buying aircraft. We buy su 30 mki and their is no problem we face on that contract. If franch don't change their attitude then they are going to loose this deal and we will go for f18 or mig 35 or su 35 whoever give us better deal.

Forget SH18..... it's a fantasm.
The ultime bargaining. That's what it is.

 

[garg_bharat]

The purpose of offsets is to make parts of Rafale in India. Other techs make sense only if it is in military field. I think MOD is not interested in civilian offsets.

The news that has come out is an outstanding issue that has persisted.

I am not sure how Dassault intends to fulfil offsets commitment. There are indications that Dassault does not have a sound plan.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Till now you have failed to prove how MKI can do better than Rafale against PLAAF aircraft while staying passive.

For it, you need to show me proofs that -

1) MKI can detect Su-35/other PLAAF aircraft with IRST at a farther range than Rafale's FSO

2) R-73E has greater range than MICA-IR in tail-chase mode

Until and unless you can prove that, even if Rafale is bad it only means MKI is worse.

So stop making a fool of yourself, please.

Plaaf dies not have rafales so to fight plaaf iaf does not need to have qualities that are better than plaaf

Iaf need to have capabilities which are better than what plaaf has

So your logic needs to be reworked

Su 30 mki are better than anything that plaaf has unless the plaaf stealth come online

Moreover russia has qwip based irst which are better than that of rafales but not part of iaf currently ntly

But the point is you lying about the capabilities of the rafales and it's benefits

 

[smestarz]

My friend Smestarz is on hollydays?

Going through some discussions, you still wearing a British leash? Guess it will be hard for you to remove it

It was great news from an unnamed source and like King Julien of Madagascar said .. Lets party.. and everyone partied, And then,,, another news. hahahaha
I think its best to wait till official and named govt spokesperson speaks out.

 

[BON PLAN]

Going through some discussions, you still wearing a British leash? Guess it will be hard for you to remove it

It was great news from an unnamed source and like King Julien of Madagascar said .. Lets party.. and everyone partied, And then,,, another news. hahahaha
I think its best to wait till official and named govt spokesperson speaks out.

As said earlier : it's not a shame to wear the british flag.
You're right : let's some official government speak about the contract.

 

[BON PLAN]

The purpose of offsets is to make parts of Rafale in India. Other techs make sense only if it is in military field. I think MOD is not interested in civilian offsets.

The news that has come out is an outstanding issue that has persisted.

I am not sure how Dassault intends to fulfil offsets commitment. There are indications that Dassault does not have a sound plan.

Don't worry for that. Dassault top brass are thinking about ToT since years for the Indian case.
Now it depends what Indian need, what french govt agree Dassault to share and what indian industrial partners are able to learn.
And Dassault is not alone. It is a "Rafale international GIE" ToT... Snecma (Safran), Thales....

If Indian need the secrets about how to study a modern fighter powerplant and how to developp from the beginning an AESA radar.... I think the answer will be "sorry, it will not be possible".

 

[garg_bharat]

@BON PLAN, the whole purpose of offsets is to increase maturity of Indian defence industry.

I think 50% is too high, but this is the figure that Dassault has promised.

What Dassault can do is up to its plans.

Making an AESA radar or an engine in India can be lucrative for French companies. Such components can go into AMCA project. Building something in India is not equal to IPR transfer. So it is an issue of perspective.

 

[sasum]

You Sound too condescending !! Indians are not really cavemen, as you believe. DRDO may be struggling with a few issues but Kaveri engine achieved more dry thrust than M-88 does in its final configuration. And Uttam AESA radar is very good a first attempt. Remember we already deployed 'Swordfish', a ground-based AESA radar modeled on Israeli 'Greenpine'. However, keeping onboard TR modules in fighter jets cool with densely packed antennas is quite a problem, even with cooler GaAs chips..but India will ultimately mount Uttam on Tejas Mk II.

If Indian need the secrets about how to study a modern fighter powerplant and how to develop from the beginning an AESA radar.... I think the answer will be "sorry, it will not be possible".

 

[Gessler]

Plaaf dies not have rafales so to fight plaaf iaf does not need to have qualities that are better than plaaf

Iaf need to have capabilities which are better than what plaaf has

So your logic needs to be reworked

Su 30 mki are better than anything that plaaf has unless the plaaf stealth come online

Moreover russia has qwip based irst which are better than that of rafales but not part of iaf currently ntly

But the point is you lying about the capabilities of the rafales and it's benefits

Just shut up, ok? I doubt you're making any sense even for yourself.

Lol what? Su-30MKI with PESA is better than J-10B+J-11B which have AESA and more powerful engines? Not to mention Su-35 that PLAAF will soon induct? Are you crazy??

And how do you hope to beat PLAAF's three types of 4.5 gen planes with just 1 type of plane for our self? We will also have 3 types of 4.5 gen planes (MKI, Rafale, Tejas Mk-2) and any 5th gen plane is in addition to that.

...and stop talking about what Russia has - the question is what we're getting. There is no argument against the facts that FSO IRST is superior to OLS-35/30. And MICA-IR is indisputably superior to R-73E missile. QWIP is in development for Russia...also in France. A QWIP-based tech is the next logical evolution of a traditional IRST.

Any plane with IRST (or scope for IRST) today will eventually evolve to have a QWIP-based IRST tomorrow. That's just how tech flows.

Bottomline is, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. You have no solid points to make - you have FAILED to prove that MKI can do better than Rafale passively.

Your only objective seems to be attacking the Rafale - but I've told one clear sentence to you :-

"If Rafale is bad, MKI is worse."

...and that single line seals the argument. We inducted MKI in early to mid-2000s based on technological requirements tabled in the late 90s. The Rafale procurement comes in the late 2010s based on ASQRs filed in late 2000s.

There is no way in hell that the present MKI can be technologically superior to the Rafale version that IAF will induct - unless you're saying that IAF is travelling backwards in time.

 

[BON PLAN]

@BON PLAN, the whole purpose of offsets is to increase maturity of Indian defence industry.

I think 50% is too high, but this is the figure that Dassault has promised.

What Dassault can do is up to its plans.

Making an AESA radar or an engine in India can be lucrative for French companies. Such components can go into AMCA project. Building something in India is not equal to IPR transfer. So it is an issue of perspective.

It's the fruit of 70 years of implementation !
1) I'm not sure your industry mature enough.
2) It's some of the technologies that will make you in or out 21st century. Not easy to share, specially with a BRIC than can and will compete tomorrow with you.

Instead, and you need it, we can give you the know how about air intakes, undercarriages, structures, even fbw. And of course all the software and knowledge to integrate a new weapon on Rafale.
France and India may developp together a new IR suite for OSF.

 

[BON PLAN]

You Sound too condescending !! Indians are not really cavemen, as you believe. DRDO may be struggling with a few issues but Kaveri engine achieved more dry thrust than M-88 does in its final configuration. And Uttam AESA radar is very good a first attempt. Remember we already deployed 'Swordfish', a ground-based AESA radar modeled on Israeli 'Greenpine'. However, keeping onboard TR modules in fighter jets cool with densely packed antennas is quite a problem, even with cooler GaAs chips..but India will ultimately mount Uttam on Tejas Mk II.

So you don't need ToT on engine and AESA. Perfect !

 

[Zebra]

Extract from IDN:-
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/04/rafale-fighter-jet-deal-with-france.html?m=1

.......“While the government is keen to bring down the costs of the aircraft to as low as euro 7-8 billion, there is no way France will give a fully loaded aircraft at that price. India might be forced to then pay just for the platform and for add-ons pay extra money,” a senior official explained.

That is what I tried to say on Sep/22/2011. Check it......................... ( post #141 )

...........................................

.....................I am not sure, but for Mistral , Nany have to buy everything from France .
Ther may charge like anything for that . Ship will be cheap but once you got the ship all other things we have to buy from France price tag will be much-much over priced . Who knows .

 

[sasum]

It's the fruit of 70 years of implementation !
1) I'm not sure your industry mature enough.
2) It's some of the technologies that will make you in or out 21st century. Not easy to share, specially with a BRIC than can and will compete tomorrow with you.

Instead, and you need it, we can give you the know how about air intakes, undercarriages, structures, even fbw. And of course all the software and knowledge to integrate a new weapon on Rafale.
France and India may developp together a new IR suite for OSF.

Another round of bombast ? Midhani/ DMRL have not grown 4th generation single crystals. India is lagging in metallurgy and material science. Once we make quality single crystal blades, overheating & throwing of turbine blades in Kaveri engine will cease. Also there will be weight reduction. There is some rumoured design deficiency in Can type combustion chamber; this is being changed into simpler, shorter and lighter annular type. Some problem with air compression is there, probably due to the wrong size and placement of turbofan. About FBW, the flight control system of Tejas developed in-house is a dream. Pilots who have flown Tejas say, it is the most facile, pilot-friendly interface they have ever used.
And about weapons integration, MK I is integrated with a lot of weapons from non-russian source, such as brahmos. Tejas MK I will be fully loaded by native armoury.

 

[sasum]

Hey, maybe you don't need Rafale anymore ! Look at this

http://shethepeople.tv/deepika-kumari-equals-world-record-at-archery-world-cup/

Gandhian patience ? Hell that is needed when dealing with India

Tribals are traditionally good at archery; sad they are overlooked by local sports bodies.

 

[harsh]

Hey, maybe you don't need Rafale anymore ! Look at this

http://shethepeople.tv/deepika-kumari-equals-world-record-at-archery-world-cup/

Gandhian patience ? Hell that is needed when dealing with India

After paris bombing france take pledge to destroy ISIS. But poor franch charles de gualle and rafale had bad luck. They didn't kill a mosquito there forget ISIS.

Now our deepika kumari can coach them so that they find target next time.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Thread closed. Please do not make multiple threads on same issue.

 

[Sam Biswas]

India and IAF need to get out of the Rafale nightmare. The negotiation is going on for many many years which is sheer wastage of time and money. French are strapped for cash and trying to get every penny out of the Rafale deal. Rafale is an unproven jet with no real combat experience except few bombing mission against rebels, not air force. France just fly the jets around like models solely to tantalize IAF. With a cost of $200-300 millions per jet, it is a colossal waste of money that India can use for a variety of projects other than helping our out of luck French friends. Even Rafale supporters must agree that France will be a difficult future partner in India's defence. I simply don't understand why India wants to get in bed with these shylocks.

F/A-18 E/F is a proven US fighter jets. It is a mainstay for US military and particularly aircraft carriers. It is a state of the art fighter jet at a very reasonable price. Boeing is willing to bring the manufacturing to India and technology transfer is quite obvious. PM Modi is invited to address the joint session of US Congress. This is a high time for PM Modi to make a quick and good deal with the US and bring the manufacturing of fighter jets to India. Only 36 Rafale will not do much for defence. India could three times as many F/A-18 for that money and produce several hundred jets in the next two decades that will be a permanent solution India's fighter jet needs for both Air force and Navy. It will be really foolish to let this opportunity go and hobnob with French Rafale.