Know Your 'Rafale'

[WolfPack86]

Rafale is good fighter only thing it is costly

 

[porky_kicker]

RBE 2 AESA it seems has aggressive jamming / hacking modes though not officially confirmed.

it will be a huge plus in-case it has this capability

 

[BON PLAN]

RBE 2 AESA it seems has aggressive jamming / hacking modes though not officially confirmed.

it will be a huge plus in-case it has this capability

As all the AESA radar I think. It depends mainly of the Software behind.

 

[BON PLAN]

My friend Smestarz is on hollydays?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

My friend Smestarz is on hollydays?

Dasault is a seller of course it will be on good condition to supply 90 more or for that matter even 300 more that is IF and IF India asks for more

 

[garg_bharat]

RBE 2 AESA it seems has aggressive jamming / hacking modes though not officially confirmed.

it will be a huge plus in-case it has this capability

There is only one good thing about Rafale, and it is called "marketing".

Intense marketing, flooding of internet with sound bytes, is what makes people like you appreciate it far more than it is worth.

I can bet Rafale is no better than a F-16 or F-18 in actual battle. All modern fighters have active and passive means of self defence, and low observability is included as well.

It seems certain that France is getting an order for 36. The rest depends on the situation with other variables. If American offer falls through then good chance for Rafale. American situation is hard to judge as the main thing is engine technology.

 

[BON PLAN]

There is only one good thing about Rafale, and it is called "marketing".

Intense marketing, flooding of internet with sound bytes, is what makes people like you appreciate it far more than it is worth.

I can bet Rafale is no better than a F-16 or F-18 in actual battle. All modern fighters have active and passive means of self defence, and low observability is included as well.

It seems certain that France is getting an order for 36. The rest depends on the situation with other variables. If American offer falls through then good chance for Rafale. American situation is hard to judge as the main thing is engine technology.

No, no.

The best in marketing is Lockeed Martin.

They said when rolling out F22 a 5th gen fighter must be : stealth and supercruiser. And now they are trying to convince F35 is a 5th gen without supercruiser. And with 7g limit (and even less it seems)....

I'm sure if Nederlands do another bench mark against Rafale and not a paper F35, but a real F35 that Rafale win easily. same against EF, SH18....

India will become 3rd export customer, and the list will increased, increased....

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

No, I never lied. Even with 2 drop tanks Rafale's warload can be equal or superior to MKI.

But given the fact that India's enemies are both next door neighbours, it was reasonable to assume it doesn't need DTs all that frequently, either.

But as I said, even if hypothetically MKI has better payload-range equation it is irrelevant because they're different classes of aircraft.

You fail to understand the fact that the whole reason why I drew up a comparison between MKI and Rafale was because certain idiots had the idea that Rafale was being marketed as a replacement or alternative to MKI, which is not the case.

I by myself am not so stupid that I'd compare the two aircraft.

There is no comparison both are different

But the fact remains that rafales may face Chinese su35 ina war

And in such a case the performance criteria that you were marketing about rafales and mica will be put to real life test

And I am pointing out that what you are saying may be true rafales may detect su30 su35 at 130 km in tail chase mode

But the mica will not get a lock on at range above 60 km and even in lock on after launch the same range criteria 60 km holds tru e because when the missile itself has head on range of 60 km what is the use of launching it at a fighter at greater than 60 km range head on ?


In tail chase mode it gets even worse

Even after lock on at 60 km range rafale can't launch mica because mica range in tail chase is less than 20 km

So rafale can't do shit about it even if it sees the other fighter at 130 km range

So dear gessler pk stop lying about how great it will be

 

[NiJ1910]

There is no comparison both are different

But the fact remains that rafales may face Chinese su35 ina war

And in such a case the performance criteria that you were marketing about rafales and mica will be put to real life test

And I am pointing out that what you are saying may be true rafales may detect su30 su35 at 130 km in tail chase mode

But the mica will not get a lock on at range above 60 km and even in lock on after launch the same range criteria 60 km holds tru e because when the missile itself has head on range of 60 km what is the use of launching it at a fighter at greater than 60 km range head on ?


In tail chase mode it gets even worse

Even after lock on at 60 km range rafale can't launch mica because mica range in tail chase is less than 20 km

So rafale can't do shit about it even if it sees the other fighter at 130 km range

So dear gessler pk stop lying about how great it will be

Why you neglecteing Meteor missile dassult rafale will be equip with meteor missile

 

[Gessler]

There is no comparison both are different

But the fact remains that rafales may face Chinese su35 ina war

And in such a case the performance criteria that you were marketing about rafales and mica will be put to real life test

And I am pointing out that what you are saying may be true rafales may detect su30 su35 at 130 km in tail chase mode

But the mica will not get a lock on at range above 60 km and even in lock on after launch the same range criteria 60 km holds tru e because when the missile itself has head on range of 60 km what is the use of launching it at a fighter at greater than 60 km range head on ?


In tail chase mode it gets even worse

Even after lock on at 60 km range rafale can't launch mica because mica range in tail chase is less than 20 km

So rafale can't do shit about it even if it sees the other fighter at 130 km range

So dear gessler pk stop lying about how great it will be

Till now you have failed to prove how MKI can do better than Rafale against PLAAF aircraft while staying passive.

For it, you need to show me proofs that -

1) MKI can detect Su-35/other PLAAF aircraft with IRST at a farther range than Rafale's FSO

2) R-73E has greater range than MICA-IR in tail-chase mode

Until and unless you can prove that, even if Rafale is bad it only means MKI is worse.

So stop making a fool of yourself, please.

 

[Rushil51]

Hey @BON PLAN , there has been a lot of noise regarding transfer of some Barcuda SSN tech along with the signing of Rafale deal. Should we take this with a pinch of salt or is there some truth? Can you shed some light on it and any other tech transfer on similar lines?

 

[WolfPack86]

Rafale fighter jet deal with France runs into trouble again
India and France are still negotiating the latter’s offer in terms of New Delhi’s offset clause regarding the multi-billion dollar deal to purchase 36 French Rafale aircraft.

Talking to FE on condition of anonymity, highly placed sources said: “The French company Dassault Aviation has offered 17-18 technologies as part of its offsets obligation in various sectors, including civil aviation, homeland security and partially services for the deal which is being negotiated under DPP-2013.”

However, this could create further delay in the process as the ministry of defence (MoD) has so far failed to form a team to evaluate the respective proposals made by vendors for the transfer of technology. The methodology for evaluating and comparing the value of the respective proposals for transfer of technology also remains unformulated and unclear, sources revealed.
This process is expected to be time-consuming as there are no parameters that can be referred to while putting a cost to the technologies being offered. Earlier, the French side had rejected India’s demand for a 50% offset clause, citing sharp cost escalation, but offered to participate in ‘Make in India’ projects to carry forward the talks. There is also a strong lobby of small and medium French enterprises that is against industrial offsets and sees it as a threat to the competitiveness of the French defence industry.

Due to India’s insistence on the offset clause, tweaking of weaponry technology and plans to set up two bases for Rafale fighter planes would lead to cost escalation, which New Delhi is pushing to bring down to around 7-8 billion euro. “While the government is keen to bring down the costs of the aircraft to as low as euro 7-8 billion, there is no way France will give a fully loaded aircraft at that price. India might be forced to then pay just for the platform and for add-ons pay extra money,” a senior official explained.

Offset policy was first introduced as part of the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), 2005, under which a foreign company has to invest back a portion of the deal into India.
http://www.financialexpress.com/article/economy/rafale-deal-runs-into-hurdle-again/243581/

 

[porky_kicker]

the single most important outcome of the rafale deal will be Indian access to megajoule facility in France.
i have used the word access but it could be anything like the France lab testing our designs via stimulations or granting us access to their facilities for testing or providing us their own stimulation data etc etc


Laser Mégajoule (LMJ) is a large laser-based inertial confinement fusion (ICF) research device built near Bordeaux, in France by the French nuclear science directorate, CEA.

Laser Mégajoule plans to deliver about 1.8 MJ of laser energy to its targets, making it about as energetic as its US counterpart, the National Ignition Facility (NIF).

Laser Mégajoule is the largest ICF experiment to be built outside the US, where ICF research has been strongly related to nuclear weapons research. Likewise, Laser Mégajoule's primary tasks will be refining fusion calculations for France's own nuclear weapons

indian thermonuclear weapons design need further refinement
many will laugh at this claim of mine
but the last laugh will be mine

and obiviously dont expect any official claims about it from either side.

 

[BON PLAN]

Hey @BON PLAN , there has been a lot of noise regarding transfer of some Barcuda SSN tech along with the signing of Rafale deal. Should we take this with a pinch of salt or is there some truth? Can you shed some light on it and any other tech transfer on similar lines?

I don't know.
But why not? As Dassault is a sharehoder of Thales which is a shareholder of DCNS, the company studying and producing french subs.
And DCNS do such king of job with Brazil : we help them to developp their new SSN, except nuclear powerplant.... But maybe we gave them some help on it.... under cover.

But it's far from Rafale deal.... This kind of transfer may be more suited with another Scorpene order, no?

 

[Tactical Frog]

France is not going to share with India its family secrets like Barracuda technology for just 36 Rafale. That at least should be crystal clear.
The Aussies are in the process of getting 12 Shortfin Barracuda for an estimated $ 39 billion addition. They will probably not like anyone else in the region getting same stealth tech .
Now what do I know ... we are entering a really grey, secret zone.

 

[Rushil51]

France is not going to share with India its family secrets like Barracuda technology for just 36 Rafale. That at least should be crystal clear.
The Aussies are in the process of getting 12 Shortfin Barracuda for an estimated $ 39 billion addition. They will probably not like anyone else in the region getting same stealth tech .
Now what do I know ... we are entering a really grey, secret zone.

Obviously we are not just going to buy 36 Rafales. 36 is a very small number for Indian Air force even if you don't consider the fact that a lot of its aircraft are close to decommissioning. Deal involves huge amount which provides some cover for such back-door deals.

And obviously we are not buying every single tech that goes in Barcudda. Just some tech which military leadership knows we won't be able to develop in next 1-2 decades.

 

[Zebra]

Obviously we are not just going to buy 36 Rafales. 36 is a very small number for Indian Air force even if you don't consider the fact that a lot of its aircraft are close to decommissioning. Deal involves huge amount which provides some cover for such back-door deals.

And obviously we are not buying every single tech that goes in Barcudda. Just some tech which military leadership knows we won't be able to develop in next 1-2 decades.

But why the hell you need that tech either.
What will be the price of it..............!

Better let L&T join their hands with Electric Boat.
Call them in India and design as per out needs here in India.
A totally custom made sub will get ready in India itself.
It will be less costly then buying next generation sub from other countries under make in India.

 

[Rushil51]

But why the hell you need that tech either.
What will be the price of it..............!

Better let L&T join their hands with Electric Boat.
Call them in India and design as per out needs here in India.
A totally custom made sub will get ready in India itself.
It will be less costly then buying next generation sub from other countries under make in India.

And what price would Americans ask for? How do we know it will be less than what French will ask? And how long will it take to develop those technologies when French already have that? And will that technology be sanctions free?

Only people who know which is the better option for is the Indian Military leadership.

 

[Zebra]

And what price would Americans ask for? How do we know it will be less than what French will ask? And how long will it take to develop those technologies when French already have that? And will that technology be sanctions free?

Only people who know which is the better option for is the Indian Military leadership.

US gonna help India in aircraft carrier development.
The same way we can go for subs also.

It won't be more than $2 billion each, including everything. I guess.

 

[Sam Biswas]

I think only country in the world that will negotiate for a decade to buy a few fighter jets is India with Gandhian patience. Rafale deal is the greatest military joke in this century. The time and difficulty of negotiating this deal should tell us that this will never be a good deal. France has not much going for them. The only game is Rafale. They are trying to extract every penny out of this horrible deal. I just wonder how it will be after the deal is executed and jets are delivered. It will be a never ending saga.