Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

@wegweg, Russia has not invaded Poland.

Past actions cannot be used to explain present decisions, otherwise world will become unlivable. See French are living happily with Germans despite being occupied in ww2.

I see Poland as a threat to Russia rather than other way round. It is laughable to compare military resources of NATO to Russia and paint Russia as aggressor.

Of course they do !
Russia take a part of Poland just after Germany began their attack. Just read Wikipédia about Katyn...

NATO made an error by trying to intall anti ballistic missile near Russia, and in convincing some neighbors to move to NATO.
But russia since some years had adoped a very aggressiv posture.

 

[BON PLAN]

If Poland is going to decide French foreign policy, then why should india buy French planes. It should buy polish planes instead.

Do that. You may have 70's old style trainer....

 

[garg_bharat]

Of course they do !
Russia take a part of Poland just after Germany began their attack. Just read Wikipédia about Katyn...

NATO made an error by trying to intall anti ballistic missile near Russia, and in convincing some neighbors to move to NATO.
But russia since some years had adoped a very aggressiv posture.

It was not Russia, it was USSR.
NATO is north Atlantic treaty organization. Poland is not a north Atlantic nation.

NATO was created to fight USSR. Now nato is fighting in middle east and north Africa.

Russia or any other country will take an aggressive posture when its national security is threatened.

 

[garg_bharat]

Do that. You may have 70's old style trainer....

It was sarcasm. You took it literally.

 

[Bahamut]

Poles feel directly threatend by Russia, they have sugguested (and performed a large military manouver on a border for that plan) using nuclear weapons on Warsaw. They based nuclear missiles in the Kaligrad enclave.

The nuclear weapons came after ABM treaty was canceled ,and as a response to BM defense system being built in eastern Europe.

it was right to cancle it when Russia's true nature (Empire building Nazi's) became obvious to Western Europe (Eastern Europe always knew)

Really ,western Europe which has devastated its former colonies ,killed million by sanction and stalled development project in many country is good.How is Russia a Nazi empire ? There must be a reason.

There is a difference, the Russian minorities in the Baltic states are the descendants of the Russian colonisers and Military Occupiers who stayed behind when the the Soviet Union collapsed. The Baltic States were invaded and wiped off the map in 1939 by the Soviets.

We have Anglo Indian community and French community although very small they are not at all mistreated even if they were our colonizer.There are more then Russian minority there,what about them .People in soviet we moved on govt. order not on their own.Baltic in 90 had very strong industrial economy,now its industry are a joke.
The soviet government killed more Russian and did more to destroy their culture then they did any Eastern European country .Russia is not the Soviet Union.
.

Not surprisingly, the countries were left so poor by the occupation (and a large part of their population killed) that buying weapons to defend themselves is difficult.

They can spend ,it is just that the choose not to spend .

 

[garg_bharat]

See today French foreign policy is sabotaged by Poland, tomorrow it will be Ukraine. The structure of EU is such that a small country can veto a much bigger country. EU politics is a bigger minefield compared to US politics.

We Indians have more influence in Washington than we have in Brussels.

If EU was not there, then there was a perfect reason to buy French as any commitment of French government could be trusted.

 

[garg_bharat]

As it stands today, it is Russian fighters like su30 and mig29 that protect us, and it will not change even if we buy 126 rafale.

If we ramp up our local programs, then we expect to reduce our Russian dependence by 2030. If we spend 40b on Rafale then our local programs will stay underfunded and will never ramp up. This is the irony that if we buy this aircraft. The mmrca budget was set at 12b, and I think this government will not cross that figure.

 

[Sam Biswas]

Modi

As it stands today, it is Russian fighters like su30 and mig29 that protect us, and it will not change even if we buy 126 rafale.

If we ramp up our local programs, then we expect to reduce our Russian dependence by 2030. If we spend 40b on Rafale then our local programs will stay underfunded and will never ramp up. This is the irony that if we buy this aircraft. The mmrca budget was set at 12b, and I think this government will not cross that figure.

Modiji gave his best shot to solve the Rafale crisis and realized the difficulty of dealing with the French and their greed. I believe he and MOD gave up on that deal very quietly. They put up a final offer (~$7B) and left it to the French, which I think is the best approach. Thus, the deal is pretty much dead or in life support.

 

[Superdefender]

Modi


Modiji gave his best shot to solve the Rafale crisis and realized the difficulty of dealing with the French and their greed. I believe he and MOD gave up on that deal very quietly. They put up a final offer (~$7B) and left it to the French, which I think is the best approach. Thus, the deal is pretty much dead or in life support.

$7 biilion is still not a small amount, remember! It would be fine if we could get double no. of Rafales in that price.

 

[wegweg]

@wegweg, Russia has not invaded Poland.

Past actions cannot be used to explain present decisions, otherwise world will become unlivable. See French are living happily with Germans despite being occupied in ww2.

I see Poland as a threat to Russia rather than other way round. It is laughable to compare military resources of NATO to Russia and paint Russia as aggressor.

The Russians are raising the prospect of rebuilding the Russian Empire/Soviet Union (it was the same thing). Putin made the comment that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a 'Disaster'. The Russian neo-Fascists invading Ukraine are using Soviet flags, and apply Stalins laws in the Donesk and Lehansk.

Russian occupied Poland for two hundred years. The Bolsheviks invaded Poland in 1919 and the Soviet Union invaded in 1939 and again in 1944. There was no difference, Poland has fought for its independence many times and there is no doubt in 99% of Poles minds that Russian is our swore enemy whole wants to exterminate us.

As well as Katyn (22,00 Polish officers shot in the back of the head in 1940) the Russians also deported 1.5million civilians (including all father and all his family) to Siberia where 800,000 died in 2 years until they were release in 1941, when Nazi Germany attacked its Russian Communist ALLY.

 

[wegweg]

Do that. You may have 70's old style trainer....

Don't forget you only got the Jet engine by stealing from the Germans

 

[Tactical Frog]

The Russians are raising the prospect of rebuilding the Russian Empire/Soviet Union (it was the same thing). Putin made the comment that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a 'Disaster'. The Russian neo-Fascists invading Ukraine are using Soviet flags, and apply Stalins laws in the Donesk and Lehansk.

Russian occupied Poland for two hundred years. The Bolsheviks invaded Poland in 1919 and the Soviet Union invaded in 1939 and again in 1944. There was no difference, Poland has fought for its independence many times and there is no doubt in 99% of Poles minds that Russian is our swore enemy whole wants to exterminate us.

As well as Katyn (22,00 Polish officers shot in the back of the head in 1940) the Russians also deported 1.5million civilians (including all father and all his family) to Siberia where 800,000 died in 2 years until they were release in 1941, when Nazi Germany attacked its Russian Communist ALLY.

wegweg , I agree with lot of you are saying here .. I have been hearing the story over and over by a polish friend. But it seems that for political reason the refugees associations in Poland are inflating the scale of the events. 460,000 deportees is the estimation of the Karta Center in Warsaw. Still massive. About Katyn, the events are well established , though 22,000 is the figure admitted for several mass executions including the one of Katyn.

I'm no particular fan of the French, but I must defend them. They were correct to cancel the order, Poland was invaded by Russia three times in the 20th Centuary and occupied by it for 70 years.

Poles feel directly threatend by Russia, they have sugguested (and performed a large military manouver on a border for that plan) using nuclear weapons on Warsaw. They based nuclear missiles in the Kaligrad enclave.

The French mistake was to take an order from Russian, it was right to cancle it when Russia's true nature (Empire building Nazi's) became obvious to Western Europe (Eastern Europe always knew)


There is a difference, the Russian minorities in the Baltic states are the descendants of the Russian colonisers and Military Occupiers who stayed behind when the the Soviet Union collapsed. The Baltic States were invaded and wiped off the map in 1939 by the Soviets.

Not surprisingly, the countries were left so poor by the occupation (and a large part of their population killed) that buying weapons to defend themselves is difficult.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Not quite agreeing with the vision of modern Russia you express but thanks for support @wegweg .

You sure you don' t want to buy some Rafale too

 

[wegweg]

No chance, for that money (actually probably much less,,) we can get F-35A.
For Poland, Interoperability and networkability with a hugh fleet of F-35's is more important than Basic Flight Manouvers against a few Su-35's

"460,000 deportees"
I used an old estimate, maybe they have corrected it now..

 

[wegweg]

Really ,western Europe which has devastated its former colonies ,killed million by sanction and stalled development project in many country is good.How is Russia a Nazi empire ? There must be a reason.

Eastern Europe had no colonies, and did nothing of the things the West did.
Eastern Europe was invaded, raped, pillaged by the Soviet Union/Russian Empire and it did it while in a secret alliance and in cordination with Nazi Germany.

Today Russian wants to rebuild its Empire by retaking the former colonies, such as Ukaraine, Poland, Baltic States, Georgia etc. Nationalist Empire building through armed conquest is Nazi (they are even socialist)

 

[Tactical Frog]

Does the name moog actuators ring any bells ?

Yes, rings a bell .. Moog is a well known synthetizer. We don't use this technology for Rafale, thank you !

 

[Bahamut]

The Russians are raising the prospect of rebuilding the Russian Empire/Soviet Union (it was the same thing). Putin made the comment that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a 'Disaster'.

At least know what he said, ask any one in central Asia and they will say that it was a disaster ,he said that collapse lead to failure of basic govt. function and breakdown in civil society.The comments were a references to ethnic war the former USSR and devastating de industrialization along with collapse of infrastructure . The correct translation was that it was a humanitarian disaster .

The Russian neo-Fascists invading Ukraine are using Soviet flags, and apply Stalins laws in the Donesk and Lehansk.

Where do you get this from ?The US state dept.

Russian occupied Poland for two hundred years. The Bolsheviks invaded Poland in 1919 and the Soviet Union invaded in 1939 and again in 1944. There was no difference, Poland has fought for its independence many times and there is no doubt in 99% of Poles minds that Russian is our swore enemy whole wants to exterminate us.

As well as Katyn (22,00 Polish officers shot in the back of the head in 1940) the Russians also deported 1.5million civilians (including all father and all his family) to Siberia where 800,000 died in 2 years until they were release in 1941, when Nazi Germany attacked its Russian Communist ALLY.

Yes it happened ,they said sorry get over it.Do you know how many Indian were killed in India Pak separation?Do you know the no of Indian killed in British introduced famine ?They said sorry to us and we got over it.Stay stick in the past.It is just like south Korea and china say that Jap are rapist just because they raped girls over 60 years.

Eastern Europe had no colonies

They only reason they did not because they were occupied were Russian and Germany.

Soviet Union/Russian Empire and it did it while in a secret alliance and in cordination with Nazi Germany.

The deal was good for soviet union ,any reason for them not sign it.

Today Russian wants to rebuild its Empire by retaking the former colonies, such as Ukaraine, Poland, Baltic States, Georgia etc. Nationalist Empire building through armed conquest is Nazi (they are even socialist)

Word socialist and and Nazi are not to be used in the same sentence.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Does the name moog actuators ring any bells ?

Okay could not resist to this little joke about synthetizers ..
You are correct, Dassault uses moog actuators from Moog Controls UK according http://www.airframer.com/direct_detail.html?company=115825

Nobody is perfect !

 

[garg_bharat]

The Russians are raising the prospect of rebuilding the Russian Empire/Soviet Union (it was the same thing). Putin made the comment that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a 'Disaster'. The Russian neo-Fascists invading Ukraine are using Soviet flags, and apply Stalins laws in the Donesk and Lehansk.

Russian occupied Poland for two hundred years. The Bolsheviks invaded Poland in 1919 and the Soviet Union invaded in 1939 and again in 1944. There was no difference, Poland has fought for its independence many times and there is no doubt in 99% of Poles minds that Russian is our swore enemy whole wants to exterminate us.

As well as Katyn (22,00 Polish officers shot in the back of the head in 1940) the Russians also deported 1.5million civilians (including all father and all his family) to Siberia where 800,000 died in 2 years until they were release in 1941, when Nazi Germany attacked its Russian Communist ALLY.

These are excuses for NATO expansion. Russia is nowhere in front of NATO.

You are digging up history, from a time when empire building was in fashion.

Today's Poland has no reason to be scared of Russia.

I don't know where you get your news. 20000 Russian speaking people are dead in Ukraine and another 10000 are missing. The American kill Russian campaign is full on in Ukraine.

 

[garg_bharat]

I find it funny. Americans call Russians commies and Europeans call Russians Nazis. It is like whatever sells to public.