Know Your 'Rafale'

[smestarz]

And the deal seems to be getting more expensive
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/15...ns_In_Addition_To_Aircraft_Price#.VvXvuHqpTpY

When its France seems there are a lot of hidden costs

India apart from the designated price for the 36 Dassault Rafale fighter jets from France will have to bear the cost of weapons that would be integrated to the fighter aircraft.

The cost of the ammunition suite of the Dassault Rafale will be an additional element to the final price of the aircraft being negotiated between India and France, sources in the Anglo-French weapons manufacturer, MBDA told defenseworld.net Friday.

MBDA has already sent its proposal to the Indian Air Force (IAF) that they can furnish the Rafale aircraft with a full weapon suite including Meteor, Mistral and Mica missiles besides laser guided bombs (LGBs).

The cost of these will have to be added to the estimated price of 36 Rafales believed to be between $ 7-9 billion. While the sources refused to divulge the price of the weapons package, they stated the government to government deal being negotiated now will take note of this.

 

[smestarz]

And the deal seems to be getting more expensive
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/15...ns_In_Addition_To_Aircraft_Price#.VvXvuHqpTpY

When its France seems there are a lot of hidden costs

India apart from the designated price for the 36 Dassault Rafale fighter jets from France will have to bear the cost of weapons that would be integrated to the fighter aircraft.

The cost of the ammunition suite of the Dassault Rafale will be an additional element to the final price of the aircraft being negotiated between India and France, sources in the Anglo-French weapons manufacturer, MBDA told defenseworld.net Friday.

MBDA has already sent its proposal to the Indian Air Force (IAF) that they can furnish the Rafale aircraft with a full weapon suite including Meteor, Mistral and Mica missiles besides laser guided bombs (LGBs).

The cost of these will have to be added to the estimated price of 36 Rafales believed to be between $ 7-9 billion. While the sources refused to divulge the price of the weapons package, they stated the government to government deal being negotiated now will take note of this.

 

[garg_bharat]

People have forgotten that the entire 126 unit MMRCA acquisition had a budget of $12B.

I am not sure how the government will adjust these figures that are coming in now.

If the government has invited Boeing for presentation on F-18, it clearly shows one and only one thing, that even 36 is in jeopardy.

The earlier thought process was to buy 36 Rafale flyaway condition from France, and build another (like Gripen) in India.

Introduction of an American aircraft will mean full 126 order for the Americans.

 

[smestarz]

People have forgotten that the entire 126 unit MMRCA acquisition had a budget of $12B.

I am not sure how the government will adjust these figures that are coming in now.

If the government has invited Boeing for presentation on F-18, it clearly shows one and only one thing, that even 36 is in jeopardy.

The earlier thought process was to buy 36 Rafale flyaway condition from France, and build another (like Gripen) in India.

Introduction of an American aircraft will mean full 126 order for the Americans.

As you might know., HAL and even IAF is impressed about the GE-F414 Engine, Teja Mk1A, Mk2, AMCA are expected to have these engines.There is already discussion with USA for ToT, Kaveri engine did very well considering this is first try by HAL for making an engine, but it just fell short of thrust to weight ratio as required by IAF, given another few years even that matter would be solved. USA sees this chance to play as hero in Shining armour and give India ToT for F-414 engines that might ensure it about 3000 engines order to come. I am not sure how big an order would be, but considering the numbers in play, it could be 36 planes for IAF and 40 odd for the Navy for its carrier fleet and also add maybe few odd Growler squadrons as potentials

 

[smestarz]

LOL. Your incantation will not serve to close the bargaining..... Just wait.
The issue will be :
GO and you can be sure it will be your party,
or
NO, and it will be mine.
Wait Bro.

How many more years more you want to believe that India will buy Rafales? Many of the french members here have been posting links of interview of the Dassault CEO Eric Trappier, and also Defence Minister Drian (btw where has he gone? sacked/???) were saying the contract would be signed in few weeks, and this article and interview are now more than a year old. It does in a way show that Dasault, as well as France is optimistic about a deal but they sure as hell dont know IF ITS GOING TO BE SIGNED. That does question the reliablity of the interview by Eric Trappier and your defence minister and the optimism of your media.. They are still optimistic that the deal would be signed in "few weeks" when reliable sources inform that the deal has stalled due to PRICE

 

[garg_bharat]

@smestarz, TOT is not necessary. The issue is long term stability of supplies, as any aircraft bought now will serve for 30-35 years.

We want a private sector supplier for F404 and F414 engines, that can build the engines in India. GE can be majority owner in such firm.

 

[Tactical Frog]

If countries like Poland are ready to cancel deal just because France deal with Russia then are little kids ,Russia did the deal for ToT and they got it .MH 17 was downed by a Russian made Buk but no one know who fired the shot so the same way do not by US drones as CIA kill innocent people with it and violate international law .Had France just said that we have deal and we will keep it means and our relation with country A is independent of your relation with it that strategical independent countries like India ,Indonesia,Vietnam etc would have come as new customers.They would have brought 10 times more NH 90 then Poland and 5 times more sub the Australia .The Baltic along with Poland asked us to put sanction on Russia and we told that our relationship with Russia is independent of your relationship with them ,no one will tell us whom should to sell to or buy from .

I am hearing your arguments ! Once again, countries of the European Union must stick together. It is like being married ... when every country starts to ignore others ' situation, like we are seeing right now with the refugee crisis, the Union is on the verge of collapse. There is a lot of mistrust between European Union and Russia at the moment over Ukraine. Nothing such between India and France, never was !

 

[garg_bharat]

You have not answered my question.

You made a deal with Russia, which became an enemy just a few years down the line.

This means your foreign policy is unstable.

None of EU countries has been attacked by Russia. Your concern is invalid.

There may be no acrimony between india and France, but no great friendship either.

Future is very hard to predict.

 

[Tactical Frog]

You have not answered my question.

You made a deal with Russia, which became an enemy just a few years down the line.

This means your foreign policy is unstable.

None of EU countries has been attacked by Russia. Your concern is invalid.

There may be no acrimony between india and France, but no great friendship either.

Future is very hard to predict.

Garg, I am hearing you too ... the European easterners feel threatened by Russia, I just can' t help it. They perceive Russia' s policies as very aggressive, especially if they have russian minorities like Latvia or Estonia. About the friendship between India and France, i think it is real and goes beyond governments : India is seen very positively by the French people itself. You will never hear anything unfriendly or hostile towards India in French medias.

 

[garg_bharat]

My point is possibility of conflict between Russia and Ukraine existed since mid 90s, before Putin came to power.

It was well known in the West, as I learned about the issues in 1998 in new York.

So when you sold the ship to Russia, you knew about this possibility. Yet you sold the ship.

Poland etc. Were always hostile to Russia. Did you consult them before selling the ship. Obviously no.

This shows your foreign policy is immature and keeps on changing.

 

[garg_bharat]

Public perception is different from government policy. Believe me Americans were very friendly to me wherever I went in USA in nineties. Yet they were not so friendly with India in strategic matters.

Situation has changed now due to China, but we worry. We know that only sincere friendships survive wars.

 

[Bahamut]

Garg, I am hearing you too ... the European easterners feel threatened by Russia, I just can' t help it. They perceive Russia' s policies as very aggressive, especially if they have russian minorities like Latvia or Estonia. About the friendship between India and France, i think it is real and goes beyond governments : India is seen very positively by the French people itself. You will never hear anything unfriendly or hostile towards India in French medias.

Well there fear are baseless.They never talk to Russia about their problem and just keep complaining .The Baltic countries do not have a single fighter aircraft, do you think that a county in threatened position at least try to have some basic equipment .Russia can provide Germany and France with some many resources and market and vice versa and it will for every one but countries like Latvia ,Estonia first mistreat their ethnic minority by suppressing their rights and then when they rise up the say Russia did it.Just like the Sinhalese government first suppress the right of Tamil are suppress then when they rise up the complain.Same with Baloch in pak.

 

[Killzone]

SO You are certifying that rafale has zero US parts. Do you know for sure? I am not so sure!!

IIRC Rafale uses US built actuators which incidentally are also used on the Tejas.

 

[Killzone]

For what it is worth .. yes @BON PLAN and I can certify there are no US parts onboard Rafale.

Does the name moog actuators ring any bells ?

 

[BON PLAN]

Does the name moog actuators ring any bells ?

Absolutely nothing to me. .

 

[BON PLAN]

My point is possibility of conflict between Russia and Ukraine existed since mid 90s, before Putin came to power.

It was well known in the West, as I learned about the issues in 1998 in new York.

So when you sold the ship to Russia, you knew about this possibility. Yet you sold the ship.

Poland etc. Were always hostile to Russia. Did you consult them before selling the ship. Obviously no.

This shows your foreign policy is immature and keeps on changing.

We sell the ships during Sarkozy mandate. A kind of Republican president.
We canceled the deal until Hollande mandate. A socialist president.
And between russia adopt a hard posture, with support to Ukrainia insurection.

I understand Sarko and Holland, because Poutine showed another visage.

 

[BON PLAN]

IIRC Rafale uses US built actuators which incidentally are also used on the Tejas.

what is IIRC ? So as to answer

 

[wegweg]

You have not answered my question.

You made a deal with Russia, which became an enemy just a few years down the line.

This means your foreign policy is unstable.

None of EU countries has been attacked by Russia. Your concern is invalid.

I'm no particular fan of the French, but I must defend them. They were correct to cancel the order, Poland was invaded by Russia three times in the 20th Centuary and occupied by it for 70 years.

Poles feel directly threatend by Russia, they have sugguested (and performed a large military manouver on a border for that plan) using nuclear weapons on Warsaw. They based nuclear missiles in the Kaligrad enclave.

The French mistake was to take an order from Russian, it was right to cancle it when Russia's true nature (Empire building Nazi's) became obvious to Western Europe (Eastern Europe always knew)

mistreat their ethnic minority by suppressing their rights and then when they rise up the say Russia did it.Just like the Sinhalese government first suppress the right of Tamil are suppress then when they rise up the complain.Same with Baloch in pak.

There is a difference, the Russian minorities in the Baltic states are the descendants of the Russian colonisers and Military Occupiers who stayed behind when the the Soviet Union collapsed. The Baltic States were invaded and wiped off the map in 1939 by the Soviets.

Not surprisingly, the countries were left so poor by the occupation (and a large part of their population killed) that buying weapons to defend themselves is difficult.

 

[garg_bharat]

@wegweg, Russia has not invaded Poland.

Past actions cannot be used to explain present decisions, otherwise world will become unlivable. See French are living happily with Germans despite being occupied in ww2.

I see Poland as a threat to Russia rather than other way round. It is laughable to compare military resources of NATO to Russia and paint Russia as aggressor.

 

[garg_bharat]

If Poland is going to decide French foreign policy, then why should india buy French planes. It should buy polish planes instead.