Know Your 'Rafale'

[Tactical Frog]

1.prime Air to Air missile of rafale Meteor is an EADS or EU effort, with britan, france, germany , etc, etc all having veto over it.

rafale also consits of many US parts, & parts from EU nations.

Once you get your hands on the Meteors , you have them at your disposal ! Just buy enough and wait for full delivery. Had the Argentinians done this with Exocet, Falkland would be Malvinas on the map ( which btw is derived from the French city of Saint Malo, home of dreadful seamen) .
Name a single part of Rafale that is of US origin ?? Or even european ??

3. When the same US congress applies the pressure on US president , He transfers that pressure to French presdient & he will have to budge, The French cancelled heli carrier delivery to russia under US pressure

You must stop paying attention to Russia Today .. it is not US that blocked this deal, it is Putin who screwed it by its escalation in Crimea/Ukraine. Try to think for a second ! The North Eastern countries of Europe were all screaming at us for not cancelling the deal immediately. Poland, Finland, Sweden, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania ; bye bye NH 90 deal with Poland ! After the MH 17 was downed by a Russian made BUK that deal was even looking worse, given the Dutch would have hated us too ! Even the Australians would have looked at us in anger for this ! bye bye aussie subs deal ! Unless India is starting to make crazy things ( which it has never done in the past), why on Earth would France sanction India ? You are not going to annex Mauritius ? We care for Mauritius .

 

[Tactical Frog]

4.Also in future France will exposed to huge commercial pressure from China in case of future indo-china war, a situation which is carefully concealed by all our French kiss loving "Strategic ANALysts" like Rajat pandit.

That is a very interesting argument. All I can say is that any commercial pressure against France is actually an attack against all European Union, including our mighty neighbour Germany. They cannot so easily sanction France.

 

[ersakthivel]

Once you get your hands on the Meteors , you have them at your disposal ! Just buy enough and wait for full delivery. Had the Argentinians done this with Exocet, Falkland would be Malvinas on the map ( which btw is derived from the French city of Saint Malo, home of dreadful seamen) .
Name a single part of Rafale that is of US origin ?? Or even european ??



You must stop paying attention to Russia Today .. it is not US that blocked this deal, it is Putin who screwed it by its escalation in Crimea/Ukraine. Try to think for a second ! The North Eastern countries of Europe were all screaming at us for not cancelling the deal immediately. Poland, Finland, Sweden, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania ; bye bye NH 90 deal with Poland ! After the MH 17 was downed by a Russian made BUK that deal was even looking worse, given the Dutch would have hated us too ! Even the Australians would have looked at us in anger for this ! bye bye aussie subs deal ! Unless India is starting to make crazy things ( which it has never done in the past), why on Earth would France sanction India ? You are not going to annex Mauritius ? We care for Mauritius .

SO You are certifying that rafale has zero US parts. Do you know for sure? I am not so sure!!

By stopping Mistral delivery, Poland, Finland, Sweeden security protected? I dont think So.

This is what I am saying abt susceptibility of france, if they respect the opinion of Poland, Finland, just think abt N sub china issuing N ultimatum or naval blockade in indian ocean for French flag carrers in indo-chin war? DO you get my point.

Putin Just proved what Russia is, Sailed his warships In bosporous pass under the chin of turkey & defeated Turkish war aims in Syria under the full glare of NATO. I dont think france comes anywhere close to that. they r good at bombing Lybia only.

Putin deployes S-400 And US withdrew F-15s from inchlik air base in Turkey!!!

Despite all the protests from EU, NATO Putin achieved his war aim of securing Crimea. And keeps Ukranian govt on a tight lease. launching kalibr from Subs and ships 1000s of Km away from turkey is a dire warning not only to Unraine!!!

 

[ersakthivel]

That is a very interesting argument. All I can say is that any commercial pressure against France is actually an attack against all European Union, including our mighty neighbour Germany. They cannot so easily sanction France.

Well putting 20 plus billion dollars on a crucial part of your air fleet on line ,

and crystal gazing the response of medium power like france against a global power like china, when france succumbed to the voices of Poland, Sweeden is not a smart move any way.

 

[garg_bharat]

Once you get your hands on the Meteors , you have them at your disposal ! Just buy enough and wait for full delivery. Had the Argentinians done this with Exocet, Falkland would be Malvinas on the map ( which btw is derived from the French city of Saint Malo, home of dreadful seamen) .
Name a single part of Rafale that is of US origin ?? Or even european ??



You must stop paying attention to Russia Today .. it is not US that blocked this deal, it is Putin who screwed it by its escalation in Crimea/Ukraine. Try to think for a second ! The North Eastern countries of Europe were all screaming at us for not cancelling the deal immediately. Poland, Finland, Sweden, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania ; bye bye NH 90 deal with Poland ! After the MH 17 was downed by a Russian made BUK that deal was even looking worse, given the Dutch would have hated us too ! Even the Australians would have looked at us in anger for this ! bye bye aussie subs deal ! Unless India is starting to make crazy things ( which it has never done in the past), why on Earth would France sanction India ? You are not going to annex Mauritius ? We care for Mauritius .

I do not think India is influenced by your Russia dealings, though I do not agree with your assessment.

Close to 30000 civilians have lost their life due to Nazis you support, and there are huge economic losses.

India audits all its defence projects and tries to assess different parties.
Every decision has good reasons behind it.
Any Indian citizen can question government. There a process which anybody can follow.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Well putting 20 plus billion dollars on a crucial part of your air fleet on line ,

and crystal gazing the response of medium power like france against a global power like china, when france succumbed to the voices of Poland, Sweeden is not a smart move any way.

We did not succumb. We are engaged with these small countries in a political and economic union. They actually count on France to help them in case of attack by Russia. On the other hand, Russia is not our friend. Not with its current leadership. Is India considering to threaten, blackmail, or attack any close friend of France ? The answer is no.

 

[Immanuel]

No chance.
SH18 old horse...
And Rafale deal don't collapse so far.... even if I agree it's now too long.

As for the F-18SH, it stll has a better chance than the Rfale, which again if Dassault doesn't budge on price won't go through.

 

[Bahamut]

The North Eastern countries of Europe were all screaming at us for not cancelling the deal immediately. Poland, Finland, Sweden, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania ; bye bye NH 90 deal with Poland ! After the MH 17 was downed by a Russian made BUK that deal was even looking worse, given the Dutch would have hated us too ! Even the Australians would have looked at us in anger for this ! bye bye aussie subs deal ! Unless India is starting to make crazy things ( which it has never done in the past), why on Earth would France sanction India ? You are not going to annex Mauritius ? We care for Mauritius .

If countries like Poland are ready to cancel deal just because France deal with Russia then are little kids ,Russia did the deal for ToT and they got it .MH 17 was downed by a Russian made Buk but no one know who fired the shot so the same way do not by US drones as CIA kill innocent people with it and violate international law .Had France just said that we have deal and we will keep it means and our relation with country A is independent of your relation with it that strategical independent countries like India ,Indonesia,Vietnam etc would have come as new customers.They would have brought 10 times more NH 90 then Poland and 5 times more sub the Australia .The Baltic along with Poland asked us to put sanction on Russia and we told that our relationship with Russia is independent of your relationship with them ,no one will tell us whom should to sell to or buy from .

 

[garg_bharat]

@Tactical Frog, future is very hard to predict.

You made mistral deal when Putin was in power, and you cancelled it when he was in power. You did not think he was a bad guy when you made the deal.

India is surrounded by hostile countries, and there is no way india can predict its situation with any degree of certainty.

 

[Tactical Frog]

SO You are certifying that rafale has zero US parts. Do you know for sure? I am not so sure!!

For what it is worth .. yes @BON PLAN and I can certify there are no US parts onboard Rafale.

 

[smestarz]

The MoD and Dassualt are already talking for the follow-on 90 unit order to be made in India.

Don't beleive what the paid media wants you to think- "stalled" is grossly inaccurate.

LOL, I do not depend on the media to give me the news, I have my own sources and these have confirmed the discussions are going nowhere

 

[Immanuel]

Why does everyone forget that the F-18 deal is not just about getting a plane but would involve India scrapping its non-alligned postion and jumping into bed with the Americans. CISMOA, BECA and LSA would all be attatched to this contract as would restrictive end-user agreements, no sovereign control over the F-18 production line in India OR the actual F-18s in IAF possesion, zero critical ToT on high end equipment (engines and radars) etc etc


Oh and let's not forget, in a couple of years, once India is firmly on the US's team of unequals they will force the turd that is the F-35 down the necks of the IAF and or IN.


Is it worth it? Not for all the gold in Indian wives' mattresses.

Again, you need to chill, no one is forcing India to sign the CISMOA, BECA, these are also being re-written. like we ordered other aicraft and helos without CISMOA, we can order these too. We can then swap out the IFFs, Comms, Data links etc with local ones. Quit you're whining. As for the TOT, there will be enough, just as much as the Rafale, so no need to bitch here either. Regardless of what you think, Boeing has already made a proposal and they will be making strong pitch and if the French fries don't play ball on the price, Rafale deal is down the gutter. Then the SH has a very good chance.

More so, TOT is highly over-rated, it adds no value. We have our own programs for Uttam AESA on LCA. AMCA engine could be jointly dveloped with the US, possibly a version of the F-136.

 

[Immanuel]

SO You are certifying that rafale has zero US parts. Do you know for sure? I am not so sure!!

By stopping Mistral delivery, Poland, Finland, Sweeden security protected? I dont think So.

This is what I am saying abt susceptibility of france, if they respect the opinion of Poland, Finland, just think abt N sub china issuing N ultimatum or naval blockade in indian ocean for French flag carrers in indo-chin war? DO you get my point.

Putin Just proved what Russia is, Sailed his warships In bosporous pass under the chin of turkey & defeated Turkish war aims in Syria under the full glare of NATO. I dont think france comes anywhere close to that. they r good at bombing Lybia only.

Putin deployes S-400 And US withdrew F-15s from inchlik air base in Turkey!!!

Despite all the protests from EU, NATO Putin achieved his war aim of securing Crimea. And keeps Ukranian govt on a tight lease. launching kalibr from Subs and ships 1000s of Km away from turkey is a dire warning not only to Unraine!!!

He's dreaming, there are a lot of parts on the Rafale made in the US, including parts of the Spectra itself that were developed at Thales North America.

 

[smestarz]

I hope the irony in my post hasn' t escaped you. Now , seriously, Mr Parrikar or whoever is running Indian defence seems to lack the ability of making strategic choices and standing with them .

I did not like the decision of Brazil to select Gripen but at least the Brazilians have a crystal clear plan for their airforce !

Had we been discussing Rafale maybe 10 years ago, it would maybe have been signed, and now we would have been talking abt Rafale scam. The difference between the earlier Ministry of Defence and present one is that the present one is knowledgable, and he has good advisors, specially from the services. Based on his interactions with the ex-forces people, and also questioning the present crop of IAF top brass, he has realised that the IAF top brass have holes in their storeis. The figures that the IAF top brass is giving the DM in order to get the rafale are not matching up at all. Ex.. Rafale is medium weight, and Su-30 MKI is heavy .. true, Su-30 MKI carries more internal fuel and less Warload than Rafale and still how can Rafale have longer range? When he questioned them more deeply, these top brass were looking at each other.
This was the moment when the DM was clear there is a big mess in the service and who are making the mess. IAF top brass are supposed to be the experts, and when the experts are not able to get the figures right.. what more can be said?

Sorry, but seems I have lost any sort of respect for the French, you do not realise what is going on, maybe you see too much through glass to see things clearly. As of now, the Rafale deal is on proverbial ice slab, and come April, it will within a box nailed shut.

The French were given the chance to make the deal happen, but then the prices are not workable to the French.. I guess the nails that are nailed in the box will be MADE IN INDIA

 

[Bahamut]

We did not succumb. We are engaged with these small countries in a political and economic union. They actually count on France to help them in case of attack by Russia. On the other hand, Russia is not our friend. Not with its current leadership. Is India considering to threaten, blackmail, or attack any close friend of France ? The answer is no.

Russia will gain more by attacking Mongolia then the Baltic or any other Eastern European country.India is talking with EU for trade deal for more then 10 year and it took less then one month for Eurasian Economic Union.EU is a joke and a deal mean more then 10 years long and with NGO meant to weaker the government ,no one will talk with EU.

 

[smestarz]

For what it is worth .. yes @BON PLAN and I can certify there are no US parts onboard Rafale.

LOL, and I certify that India will not be buying Rafales .. happy?

 

[smestarz]

If they don't allow to modify the aircraft, then it is confirmed that no ToT for engine will come. SNECMA and GTRE had similar arrangements but later they denied the tech.

It is a proven machine but there are norms, like you cannot deploy it against their allies cannot market, you need to allow them visit research facilities, etc.

Remember Nuclear deal?

When you are saying "allies" are you saying Pakistan? We are purchasing AH-64D and also CH-47 and we have only one logical country to use ANTI TANK helicopter against.

USA sees India as an important fulcurm with respect to their policies in Indian ocean. Americans are no longer as strong as 2 decades ago where they could actively interfere in many countries. USA wants to have India on their side so that they can then isolate China.. You did mention about NATO rules when one member is not to strike against another. You tell me that it has never happened? When one member of NATO has used weapons against another?

For Tejas we had brought in Dassault for their advices.. and they were useless. For GTRE we brought in SNECMA, they took the money and did not contribute anything.. can we really call this country "reliable"

Say if we manufacture F/A-18, it will be with ToT, we are not going to make some extra nice tech and show the Americans. Surely F/A-18 is American plane, why would we market it? The orders will go to boeing USA and not to India

 

[smestarz]

Don't worry for us. UAE, Malaysia, maybe Saudi arabia + Canada + Belgium + Swiss will fill up the line.

If you can sit with an Atlas, maybe you can write few more numbers.
It sure does look funny in a way, earlier there were nos like 126 + 63 and then the planes for Indian navy were added, making them around 250, then the number came to 36 + 90 plus few for the Indian navy. and now.. based on your post seems like the French have more or less accepted that Indian deal not happening.
Belgium is more or less French speaking, you can give them the earlier F1 versions and they wont even notice.
Saudi should be interesting, with Eurofighters already in use with them and then adding Rafale? This is more funny than egypt actually. UAE still sitting on fence, Canada... tey might go for Super hornet, they already use Hornet. SWISS, they would discuss with Gripen and then buy at cheaper rates. Its not that Switzerland is going to go to war with anyone anytime soon. Malaysia, if India is not buying, Malaysia wont be buying. Do you know Malaysia uses Su-30 MKM ? They will analyse why India did not buy Rafale and they will take their decision based on that. What you do not realise is that India is a regional power which many countries near it, look upto it

 

[Superdefender]

For Rafale lovers....

[http://en.terra.com/news/news/uae_says_rafale_proposal_unworkable/act430073]

 

[Screambowl]

When you are saying "allies" are you saying Pakistan? We are purchasing AH-64D and also CH-47 and we have only one logical country to use ANTI TANK helicopter against.

When we say allies it could be Pakistan, Saudi Arab, Bahrain and not to forget, Turkey.

USA sees India as an important fulcurm with respect to their policies in Indian ocean. Americans are no longer as strong as 2 decades ago where they could actively interfere in many countries. USA wants to have India on their side so that they can then isolate China.. You did mention about NATO rules when one member is not to strike against another. You tell me that it has never happened? When one member of NATO has used weapons against another?

And who is USA to see us as a fulcrum?`India is a sovereign state and India will do whatever suits its interest best. USA should first expel Turkey from NATO which is giving all the tech to Pakis.

For Tejas we had brought in Dassault for their advices.. and they were useless. For GTRE we brought in SNECMA, they took the money and did not contribute anything.. can we really call this country "reliable"

With the specification of Kaveri, even Snecma cannot develop it. Secondly the turbine core technology is so well protected that no country will transfer it , like cryogenic one.

Say if we manufacture F/A-18, it will be with ToT, we are not going to make some extra nice tech and show the Americans. Surely F/A-18 is American plane, why would we market it? The orders will go to boeing USA and not to Indi

and why should India manufacture F/A18? And under what norm the US is willing to build the plant for F/A-18 production? Has one one disclosed it?