Know Your 'Rafale'

silverghost

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Why is the Indian Airforce Chief raising the issue of fighter jets (which will have a capital cost of $15 to 20 billion) when the current war in Ukraine has proven that the ruling weapons from sky are armed drones, ground to air missiles carried by the drones and unsophisticated and very cheap flying bombs which target enemy on the ground without endangering the pilot or an expensive plane?

The focus has to be shifted away into UCAVs, Bayarktar type of unmanned flying weapons and precision missiles carried by them. (Pakistan has already acquired Bayarktar 2 UAVs)

Already if the current western propaganda is to be believed then 2500 Russian tanks, 300 Russian fighter jets of various types have been destroyed by mostly drones, hand held missiles and UkraInian electrical power distribution infrastructure has been laid waste by the cheap Iranian made flying bombs.

If this is what is happening then the future of fighter jet type air warfare is bleak. The existing fighters will prove more than adequate in the Indian Subcontinent. Then why this bogey of 45 squadrons and 4.5 grade fighter jet is raised again and again.
Every ACM keeps parroting that line. I don't think anybody in MoD pays any attention to it. The writing on the wall is they will get Mk1, Mk2, & AMCA when HAL decides to deliver them. In the meanwhile, the Indian Navy & Air Force can amuse themselves by creating requirements, global tenders & shortlisting foreign jets.
 

Chinmoy

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EXCLUSIVE: Final IAF Rafale In Sight, India Squeezes In More Enhancements



Rafale-I are now even more enhanced and potent version of the fighter than what we had finalised in 2016....😌😌
Looks like we have squeezed in a few more goodies and surprises for Porkies and Chinkies.... 😊😊😍😍
This is the first Rafale with India specific enhancement. It has gone thru upgrade & tests with all the enhancement & now based on it, the other 35 jets would get those enhancements.
 

BON PLAN

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This is the first Rafale with India specific enhancement. It has gone thru upgrade & tests with all the enhancement & now based on it, the other 35 jets would get those enhancements.
It's not clear. I've read that all the birds are already fitted with all the specifications but the qualifications had to be made on the last unit, to check if all is ok according to specs. True? not true? I don't know.
 

BON PLAN

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EXCLUSIVE: Final IAF Rafale In Sight, India Squeezes In More Enhancements

 

Wisemarko

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Fast Growing Chinese Air Power: India Urgently Needs Fighter Squadrons

India also requires local manufacturing of foreign jets to speed up tech absorption and output. The selection of any 4.5 generation fighters should be based on cost and technology transfer. Rafale is great however prohibitively expensive. Yet it does not confer “game-changer” value like F-35 would. Therefore, the cheapest 4th generation fighter should be locally manufactured as soon as possible. F-16 and Gripen fit the bill for this need the best.

Agree that waiting for indigenous LCA and its variants is creating a huge bottleneck for modernization.
 
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BON PLAN

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India also requires local manufacturing of foreign jets to speed up tech absorption and output. The selection of any 4.5 generation fighters should be based on cost and technology transfer. Rafale is great however prohibitively expensive. Yet it does not confer “game-changer” value like F-35 would. Therefore, the cheapest 4th generation fighter should be locally manufactured as soon as possible. F-16 and Gripen fit the bill for this need the best.

Agree that waiting for indigenous LCA and its variants is creating a huge bottleneck for modernization.
Rafale is not so costly some said previously. The unit price is in the 100 millions each, 20% less costly than EF2000 but 15 to 20% more than SH18.
It's not fair to compare Rafale and F16 or Gripen. In term of capacity and range Rafale is ahead.
F16 was a so nice fighter, but now it is clearly at the end of its life. Gripen E is not mature and not so affordable.
The last asset of Rafale in India is that it is already introduce in the force, and well appreciated. To avoid a logistic nightmare logic is to continue with Rafale.
 

Aniruddha Mulay

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India also requires local manufacturing of foreign jets to speed up tech absorption and output. The selection of any 4.5 generation fighters should be based on cost and technology transfer. Rafale is great however prohibitively expensive. Yet it does not confer “game-changer” value like F-35 would. Therefore, the cheapest 4th generation fighter should be locally manufactured as soon as possible. F-16 and Gripen fit the bill for this need the best.

Agree that waiting for indigenous LCA and its variants is creating a huge bottleneck for modernization.
What utter BS, Gripen-E costs north $85 million per unit, F-16 Block 70/72 costs north of $60 million per unit.
This is not something that I would call cheap.
LCA Tejas Mk1A is practically ready and is an extremely potent 4.5 gen fighter aircraft with a unit cost less than $40 million per unit is extremely cheap to procure and operate.
Procuring or license producing fighter jets from abroad is a short term band aid but not a long term solution since a shit ton of money needs to be spent for upgrading the aircraft when the tech eventually gets old and obselete, the Mirage 2000 has already proved this.
 

Johny_Baba

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found Rafale being featured on cover of a very old Japanese game for their PC Engine CD ROM console, named "Super Daisenryaku" , judging from the cover it seems it was released in 1988 while first rafale prototype flew in 1986 and first M-Marine aka naval version prototype flew in 1991 hhmm

1669291667332.png


not sure if it was just cover thing and inside the game they had something else, but yeah interesting to see it being promoted like this in past

@BON PLAN
 

Wisemarko

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It's not fair to compare Rafale and F16 or Gripen. In term of capacity and range Rafale is ahead.
It is very fair to compare F-16, Gripen, Rafale: they all are 4th generation fighters and don’t offer any deal-breaker capabilities over one another. For instance,
Rafale has more hard-points, range, twin engines
F-16V has more speed, payload, better AESA radar, more weapon options
Gripen can carry more meteors with dual links, lower maintenance cost, best datalinks

Decision to purchase one over another is not technical but mostly political or financial. That’s why we see so many new orders for all of them. Yet none of them come remotely close to F-35.
 

BON PLAN

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LCA Tejas Mk1A is practically ready and is an extremely potent 4.5 gen fighter aircraft with a unit cost less than $40 million per unit is extremely cheap to procure and operate.
Is LCA 2/3 as effective as a F16 bk70 ? sur not. Just have a look to range and load.
 

BON PLAN

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It is very fair to compare F-16, Gripen, Rafale: they all are 4th generation fighters and don’t offer any deal-breaker capabilities over one another. For instance,
Rafale has more hard-points, range, twin engines
F-16V has more speed, payload, better AESA radar, more weapon options
Gripen can carry more meteors with dual links, lower maintenance cost, best datalinks

Decision to purchase one over another is not technical but mostly political or financial. That’s why we see so many new orders for all of them. Yet none of them come remotely close to F-35.
F16V has not a higher payload than Rafale. Better AESA radar? hum hum... very very small nose cone and radar not perfectly fitted to this "cone" (not a cone after all).
Rafale is not a VLO but a LO. Where F16 has a +/- 2m² rcs Rafale even with load less.
F16 aerodynamic, mainly because heavy last F16 variants rely on light F16A wings, was judge as quite poor during MMRCA trials.

Sole real assets of F16 : A far wider weapons range, for a smaller cost due to serial effect.

And about F35, it's not a true 5th gen aircraft : it lacks of agility, not supercruising and its weapon system is 10 years late and maybe never fully fine tune because too big, made by too many computer programmers teams on a too long time : when they solve a problem, 2 new appear. It is why standard after standard the full capacity is always push back.
 

Wisemarko

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F16V has not a higher payload than Rafale. Better AESA radar? hum hum... very very small nose cone and radar not perfectly fitted to this "cone" (not a cone after all).
Rafale is not a VLO but a LO. Where F16 has a +/- 2m² rcs Rafale even with load less.
F16 aerodynamic, mainly because heavy last F16 variants rely on light F16A wings, was judge as quite poor during MMRCA trials.

Sole real assets of F16 : A far wider weapons range, for a smaller cost due to serial effect.

And about F35, it's not a true 5th gen aircraft : it lacks of agility, not supercruising and its weapon system is 10 years late and maybe never fully fine tune because too big, made by too many computer programmers teams on a too long time : when they solve a problem, 2 new appear. It is why standard after standard the full capacity is always push back.
First: F-16 has 2000 lbs higher payload than Rafale.

Second: Nose cone of Rafale is actually smaller than F-16 and hence only 800 TRM in first French AESA. Now claims are made that TRM are increased without official confirmation. F-16 SABR has 1000+ TRM and new ones will be GaN. France is a newborn in AESA tech.

Third: F-16V has wings of F-16 C/D and not F-16A.

Fourth: RCS of Rafale with usual payload and F-16 or Gripen or any other 4th generation with usual payload (drop tanks and weapons) is far higher than 5 M2. Easily detected by modern radars. That’s why all 5th generation have internal weapon bays.

Fifth: yes F-16 has far better weapon options especially ARM, LRSAM, and wide ranging A2G. Rafale doesn’t even have anti radiation capabilities!

F-35: is the king today. I don’t need to defend it. Its sales and 100% wins against Rafale tells the story. No wonder Dassault is begging for FCAS.
 

blackjack

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F-16 SABR has 1000+ TRM and new ones will be GaN. France is a newborn in AESA tech.
Since when? Do you have a source? I didnt even hear about the F-35 radars getting a GaN upgrade yet which I find it hard to believe that a 4th gen has 1st priority over a 5th gen aircraft in mass production.
 

Blademaster

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First: F-16 has 2000 lbs higher payload than Rafale.

Second: Nose cone of Rafale is actually smaller than F-16 and hence only 800 TRM in first French AESA. Now claims are made that TRM are increased without official confirmation. F-16 SABR has 1000+ TRM and new ones will be GaN. France is a newborn in AESA tech.

Third: F-16V has wings of F-16 C/D and not F-16A.

Fourth: RCS of Rafale with usual payload and F-16 or Gripen or any other 4th generation with usual payload (drop tanks and weapons) is far higher than 5 M2. Easily detected by modern radars. That’s why all 5th generation have internal weapon bays.

Fifth: yes F-16 has far better weapon options especially ARM, LRSAM, and wide ranging A2G. Rafale doesn’t even have anti radiation capabilities!

F-35: is the king today. I don’t need to defend it. Its sales and 100% wins against Rafale tells the story. No wonder Dassault is begging for FCAS.
Are you a paid shill of LockMart? Carrying at 9 tons means that it can barely move and can only do diddly squat. Please stop spamming us with your brochuritis numbers that have no resemblance to reality.
 

Wisemarko

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Are you a paid shill of LockMart? Carrying at 9 tons means that it can barely move and can only do diddly squat. Please stop spamming us with your brochuritis numbers that have no resemblance to reality.
Did you get paid by Dassault? Doubt so, then why ligma johnson attitude? No jet’s gonna move well at max payload- including Rafale. Your brainwashing by Dassault is indeed laughable
 

BON PLAN

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First: F-16 has 2000 lbs higher payload than Rafale.

Second: Nose cone of Rafale is actually smaller than F-16 and hence only 800 TRM in first French AESA. Now claims are made that TRM are increased without official confirmation. F-16 SABR has 1000+ TRM and new ones will be GaN. France is a newborn in AESA tech.

Third: F-16V has wings of F-16 C/D and not F-16A.

Fourth: RCS of Rafale with usual payload and F-16 or Gripen or any other 4th generation with usual payload (drop tanks and weapons) is far higher than 5 M2. Easily detected by modern radars. That’s why all 5th generation have internal weapon bays.

Fifth: yes F-16 has far better weapon options especially ARM, LRSAM, and wide ranging A2G. Rafale doesn’t even have anti radiation capabilities!

F-35: is the king today. I don’t need to defend it. Its sales and 100% wins against Rafale tells the story. No wonder Dassault is begging for FCAS.
Rafale has a 9.5T of payload. Nothing a F16 can reach.

No, the Rafale nose cone is not smaller. And it is a pure cone whane F16 one is ovale so not smart for a radar.

No the number of T/R modules of RBE2 AESA is not 800. 800 is a old old figure of the first prototyp made with average quality US modules. SInce no picture was never realeased, and it is well known than european modules are smaller and more efficient (at least than those delivered in 2005 more or less by USA).

the F16V wings have the same m² area than F16A. I hope their are reinforced because more load, but same area. It was the never produced F16 Agile Falcan that was intended to have bigger wings, as Mitsubishi F2.

You know nothing about the RCS and the capacity of SPECTRA. The turkish air base bombed in Lybia was the fact of heavy loaded Rafale never seen on radar...

F35 is king of parking, king of spending, king of delay, king of low adaptability. Rafale lost technically from 0.2% in Netherlands against a powerpoint F35 with supercruise and affordability... Rafale won technically in S Korea.... Rafale is orderd by UAE (a huge order) when F35 is not.
 
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