Kaveri Engine

Vamsi

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Messages
3,126
Likes
19,130
Country flag
I've always maintained that the collab is just a scam. Nobody parts with their crown jewels. This is the only area where the cutting edge will surely remain out of reach even in 2050 because we need a decades long engine development program with no funding cap, larger than even IGMDP to start right now instead of two decades later. Maybe we get to see GE-414 engine developed in India by 2050 at current pace, but that is wholly inadequate for the fighter fleet we'll have by 2030s, let alone the 6th gen fighters we'll need to power by 2050.
The best that a collaboration with international partner will get us is a GE-414 level engine by 2040 (instead of 2050 if we go at it alone at current pace with piecemeal approach). What we need is a generation above that.
All our babus are obsessed with IPR of the engine. In my opinion "know-why" is more important that the IPR .

Did you see Rocketry movie, if yes, then you might have observed that our scientists were involved in all kinds of reviews during the development of Viking engine. Nambi Narayanan sir in his book said that they gained the "Know-why" of Viking engine using the above way as shown in the movie.

Now if we are hell-bent on co-development with a foreign OEM,then we must make sure that our scientists are part of the design, manufacturing & testing teams. They must work closely with french scientists in all the departments.They must participate in each & every review meeting in all departments. I would even say that entire development activities should happen in India only. In my opinion we will get the "Know-why" of engine only in this process,if not the above said process then it would be a screwdriver-giri only imo.
 

omaebakabaka

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
4,089
Likes
11,567
I've always maintained that the collab is just a scam. Nobody parts with their crown jewels. This is the only area where the cutting edge will surely remain out of reach even in 2050 because we need a decades long engine development program with no funding cap, larger than even IGMDP to start right now instead of two decades later. Maybe we get to see GE-414 engine developed in India by 2050 at current pace, but that is wholly inadequate for the fighter fleet we'll have by 2030s, let alone the 6th gen fighters we'll need to power by 2050.
The best that a collaboration with international partner will get us is a GE-414 level engine by 2040 (instead of 2050 if we go at it alone at current pace with piecemeal approach). What we need is a generation above that.
We missed opportunities when Ukraines was at its weakest and China took lot of advantages. No foresight from congress and BJP is also too soft and painfully slow in forcing the change to the bottom. Add to this the qualiy of Science and Tech ministers and their secretaries.....we also don't have deep trade like China does to exert that influence even if our politicians were aggressive.
 

MonaLazy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Messages
1,150
Likes
7,162
we must make sure that our scientists are part of the design, manufacturing & testing teams. They must work closely with french scientists in all the departments.They must participate in each & every review meeting in all departments.
🔔 It's going nowhere. Viking was a one-time thing- can't fool them again and again by employing the same trick.



Essential reading for anyone advising ToT for our ills. If you ever forget the learnings from here please go over our submarine or fighter plane manufacturing experience.

the CMD of MDL alluded to some concerns inherent in technology transfer.

I am just completing my last of the six (Scorpene class) submarines (for the Indian Navy) in collaboration with a French company, the Naval Group. They have a style of functioning that they would not share with you: the technology,” the CMD of MDL said.

Prasad said that submarine building has two components – “knowhow and know why”.

“Knowhow means 100% absorption. In fact, after the second Scorpene class submarine, I did not need any assistance. The remaining four we made ourselves,” Prasad, a 36 plus years veteran of the Indian Navy told ET Infra on the sidelines of the trade exhibition INMEX SMM India organised by Informa Markets in Mumbai on Wednesday.

But, if I have to build a submarine all by myself, designed by me, then there is a problem because certain components of empirical data, which they have evolved over a period of time, are not shared with us,” he pointed out.

As a case in point, he referred to missile firing, which is a mandatory requirement before a submarine is delivered to the customer.

“One of my submarines is right now at sea for missile firing to demonstrate to our customer, during which the entire range is tracked for compliance purposes. When these things come, the reference is all given by them, something which they have not shared with us. They will come with their own laptops and do it very quickly, the moment you are close to them they will shut it (laptop) down, so that does not get shared with us,” Prasad explained.

“So, we have been insisting on the Indian Navy, now that we have built four of them, let’s have the whole Indian Navy and the MDL component in the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) lab to decide the firing parameters and everything and dispose them (the technology partner) off. Now, you can take some bold steps, but it is fraught with its own difficulties. Who will give guarantee and warranty, (besides concerns over) this is not there, that is not there? So, you can take a couple of bold steps, and this is what I offered to the government. I said let’s forget about that because to hire them for a couple of sorties and all that (comes) at phenomenally exorbitant costs,” Prasad stated.

Prasad also cited an incident during the pandemic when personnel from the technology partner left abruptly.

“Now, to get them back once again, with complete airfare, the cost of deputation etc is exorbitant,” he added.
As advised by the CMD we have to be bold and start doing steps on our own (tap talent available in the nation from industry & gov) - like a kid that learns to walk on two feet we will have to fall and stand up again & again many times before we can walk. Once we walk it is easy to run.

The success of this formula is evident in our drone policy where several UAV start-ups are helping IA keep tab on the naughty Chinaman. Compare that with the excruciatingly long dev cycle on Rustom-1 & 2 and its long road to Tapas.
 
Last edited:

omaebakabaka

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
4,089
Likes
11,567
As advised by the CMD we have to be bold and start doing steps on our own (tap talent available in the nation from industry & gov) - like a kid that learns to walk on two feet we will have to fall and stand up again & again many times before we can walk. Once we walk it is easy to run.

The success of this formula is evident in our drone policy where several UAV start-ups are helping IA keep tab on the naughty Chinaman. Compare that with the excruciatingly long dev cycle on Rustom-1 & 2 and its long road to Tapas.
Not very good odds from the if you look at the quality of our engineering or poly technic institutes and the graduates that come out of it. We need to get people that worked in high tech industries outside India and lure them back even for short stints or consultation.
 

MonaLazy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Messages
1,150
Likes
7,162
Not very good odds from the if you look at the quality of our engineering or poly technic institutes and the graduates that come out of it. We need to get people that worked in high tech industries outside India and lure them back even for short stints or consultation.
Not every rider is a horseman and not every horseman is a knight. Pick the best we have from wherever.
 

LondonParisTokyo

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
Messages
2,803
Likes
7,847
Country flag
Don't read too much.
Isn't it true that every single mainline jet engine is a derivative of some Nazi engine? The West took in Nazi scientists, the Russians took in Nazi tech and basically reverse engineered it with one or two scientists IIRC. How is it then that no other country has been able to develop an engine?
 

Blademaster

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Messages
4,392
Likes
13,627
Isn't it true that every single mainline jet engine is a derivative of some Nazi engine? The West took in Nazi scientists, the Russians took in Nazi tech and basically reverse engineered it with one or two scientists IIRC. How is it then that no other country has been able to develop an engine?
Everything came from the Roman cart and horses and then from the wheel itself. As Einstein famously said, "I stand on the shoulders of giants" when referring to Maxwell and Newton. Maxwell said the same thing, ergo Netwon.
 

omaebakabaka

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
4,089
Likes
11,567
Not every rider is a horseman and not every horseman is a knight. Pick the best we have from wherever.
Best go away to beg in other lands without an ounce of any thought. What we get is small percent of best and a lot of mediocre and scum. More scum in execs and political appointments that make it more stinky than it already is. Indian democracy is confused, useless and dangerous with most of the energy consumed by dog and pony elections and mostly rest of the progress and potential is basically needle in haystack type of output. It should be the opposite, send the useless like khalistanis and converteds and incentivize the best with carrot and stick like Hans
 

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
4,817
Likes
1,995
Country flag
Isn't it true that every single mainline jet engine is a derivative of some Nazi engine? The West took in Nazi scientists, the Russians took in Nazi tech and basically reverse engineered it with one or two scientists IIRC. How is it then that no other country has been able to develop an engine?
No, it is not true. Most of modern jet engines are based on the turbojet prototype invented by Frank Whittle - a British. The plane powered by this engine - Pioneer took first flight in 1941.

The jet engine that Germanies developed was called continuous cycle combustion, a different tech route.

If you check the history, in the early 1950, especially in Korea war, the engines on the planes of both sides were British engines or derivatives.
 

MonaLazy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Messages
1,150
Likes
7,162
View attachment 170749
GE is expected to set up a plant in India to manufacture F414 engines in collaboration with HAL and other private players. The company has agreed to transfer manufacturing technology and production engines but is awaiting the US government's nod.
Rajnath Singh further added, "As Raksha Mantri I can justify how Aatmanirbhar Bharat will be a game-changer for us. Just a few days ago, I spoke to the US Defence Secretary Minister Lloyd Austin, he has given permission to transfer a big technology to India and said if it has to be manufactured, we will do it in India. However, I can't reveal it right now".
Business use case:


Report: Indian military will require 1,000 turbojet engines for fighter aircraft over two decades; 1,000 replacement engines for fighters; 700 for trainer aircraft; 4,000 for 3- to 6-ton-class helicopters; 1,000 for 10- to 13-ton-class helicopters; and 3,000 for combat drones.

High chance RNS' announcement could be about GE's F414 EPE 116kN engine.

  • US DefSec said "if it has to be manufactured, we will do it in India."- if it was the MQ-9 there would be no iffyness about it- but would go into production immediately there being no other competition. But with engines they need to pit the American offer vs French & British to pick a winner.
  • Why will US lose out on such a huge market. Capitalism FTW!
  • If IN picks SH, there is engine commonality
  • When they have moved up to ADVENT / RDE engines why will they not part with something that is essentially ~2 decade-old tech.
  • India & US move into a tighter strategic embrace.

 

Blademaster

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Messages
4,392
Likes
13,627
Business use case:


Report: Indian military will require 1,000 turbojet engines for fighter aircraft over two decades; 1,000 replacement engines for fighters; 700 for trainer aircraft; 4,000 for 3- to 6-ton-class helicopters; 1,000 for 10- to 13-ton-class helicopters; and 3,000 for combat drones.

High chance RNS' announcement could be about GE's F414 EPE 116kN engine.

  • US DefSec said "if it has to be manufactured, we will do it in India."- if it was the MQ-9 there would be no iffyness about it- but would go into production immediately there being no other competition. But with engines they need to pit the American offer vs French & British to pick a winner.
  • Why will US lose out on such a huge market. Capitalism FTW!
  • If IN picks SH, there is engine commonality
  • When they have moved up to ADVENT / RDE engines why will they not part with something that is essentially ~2 decade-old tech.
  • India & US move into a tighter strategic embrace.

Looks like the US is trying to figure out a way to wean India off Russian imports such as the MKIs by making AMCA feasible and ready because AMCA will replace the Su30 MKIs on a one to one basis.
 

MonaLazy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Messages
1,150
Likes
7,162
Looks like the US is trying to figure out a way to wean India off Russian imports such as the MKIs by making AMCA feasible and ready because AMCA will replace the Su30 MKIs on a one to one basis.
If it is then that's good news. Healthy competition between the two military superpowers to make India stronger and stronger. That couldn't be a bad thing?

But to really take India away from Russia they will have to have enough trust to give us their nuke reactor designs like the Russians do with akula & arihant.
 

omaebakabaka

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
4,089
Likes
11,567
If it is then that's good news. Healthy competition between the two military superpowers to make India stronger and stronger. That couldn't be a bad thing?

But to really take India away from Russia they will have to have enough trust to give us their nuke reactor designs like the Russians do with akula & arihant.
They are for sure going to hold back the critical pieces of tech, what we need is partnership to get the kaveri to fruition, rest all are very risky based on the cunningness of the west and naivety and idiocy of our system. Kaveri is the future, rest is mostly trap.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top