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no smoking

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Reverse Engineering is not illegal. Violating Intellectual property rights is. Now coming to the question of Chinese reverse Engineering and their espionage of IP from Western companies I will add my 2 cents here.
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You start with Newton's laws and then progress further building upon that knowledge. It is not just "know how" but also "know why?". The fact that Chinese government are willing to throw money at a problem and yet they still want to steal technology seems to me that most of their researchers don't know where to start and might as well have their original thinking eroded.
.......
where the sole emphasis is on pushing the boundaries of human knowledge. I have simplified my argument here. But I hope you got my point.
Well, your point works perfectly in the academic world, but not in the commercial/military world outside your school.
1. In the external world, the only judgement is money. If your R&D can't bring in profit, you are out. You can try to start from Newton's laws and progress further to rebuild the knowledge that people already have 20-30 years ago, but the problem is that no one wants to buy the products built upon your 20-30 years old technologies. Then your lab will be shut down, you are fired. The only way to close that gap is reverse engineering. That is how Germany, Americans, Japanese quickly catch up with British.

2. The idea that because Chinese intelligence agencies can steal technologies so that Chinese researcher don't know where to start is laughable. No one handle out the big cheque to these researchers without asking question. They have to show their detailed plan with the deadline for each stage. Their plan will be reviewed and evaluated against their competitors' plan. Only winner will get the cheque. Certainly, there are some technologies are too hard to get in reasonable time, only for these that Chinese government will order the special agency to steal. But in the meantime, the related researchers are still working on their own R&D since they have no idea if the special agency can get the tech and their next year pay-cheque is depending on their own performance.
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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Well, your point works perfectly in the academic world, but not in the commercial/military world outside your school.
1. In the external world, the only judgement is money. If your R&D can't bring in profit, you are out. You can try to start from Newton's laws and progress further to rebuild the knowledge that people already have 20-30 years ago, but the problem is that no one wants to buy the products built upon your 20-30 years old technologies. Then your lab will be shut down, you are fired. The only way to close that gap is reverse engineering. That is how Germany, Americans, Japanese quickly catch up with British.

2. The idea that because Chinese intelligence agencies can steal technologies so that Chinese researcher don't know where to start is laughable. No one handle out the big cheque to these researchers without asking question. They have to show their detailed plan with the deadline for each stage. Their plan will be reviewed and evaluated against their competitors' plan. Only winner will get the cheque. Certainly, there are some technologies are too hard to get in reasonable time, only for these that Chinese government will order the special agency to steal. But in the meantime, the related researchers are still working on their own R&D since they have no idea if the special agency can get the tech and their next year pay-cheque is depending on their own performance.
On #2, it is laughable that you are trying to show the CCP as a responsible spender. The CCP spent $800 billion on HSR, in which 90% of the lines are making losses. Where was the engineering prowess that could have easily established that HSR lines only work when connecting highly dense cities at a length not more than 500-600 miles?
 

Concard

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Well, your point works perfectly in the academic world, but not in the commercial/military world outside your school.
1. In the external world, the only judgement is money. If your R&D can't bring in profit, you are out. You can try to start from Newton's laws and progress further to rebuild the knowledge that people already have 20-30 years ago, but the problem is that no one wants to buy the products built upon your 20-30 years old technologies. Then your lab will be shut down, you are fired. The only way to close that gap is reverse engineering. That is how Germany, Americans, Japanese quickly catch up with British.

2. The idea that because Chinese intelligence agencies can steal technologies so that Chinese researcher don't know where to start is laughable. No one handle out the big cheque to these researchers without asking question. They have to show their detailed plan with the deadline for each stage. Their plan will be reviewed and evaluated against their competitors' plan. Only winner will get the cheque. Certainly, there are some technologies are too hard to get in reasonable time, only for these that Chinese government will order the special agency to steal. But in the meantime, the related researchers are still working on their own R&D since they have no idea if the special agency can get the tech and their next year pay-cheque is depending on their own performance.
--> I don't have an idea what you are trying to say in first point. My point was to build a strong base in the area one is working on. Without a strong base what ever you build is going to crumble. Science is built on strong foundations. Newtonian Physics is still relevant even though it is more than 300 years old. I highly doubt Germans were reverse engineering on a vast scale. Germany was literally the spiritual capital of Physics and Mathematics before WW2. They are the ones who built first Jet Engines and Rockets and lot of other crazy stuff. Americans did not reverse engineer, they simply kidnapped German Scientists after WW2 to make them work for them in return for giving immunity from prosecution. Werner von Braun was one such guy who was responsible for Americans landing on the moon. Operation paper clip has all the details of kidnapped Nazi Scientists working for Americans after WW2. In addition to that in return for US providing aid to UK during WW2, UK transferred all the technical innovation up until WW2 to USA to maintain war effort. Read up on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizard_Mission This in addition to migration of bright minds from all over the world after WW2 made America Technological super power.

--> Are you saying Chinese did not know how to develop a COVID vaccine even though they were the first to get exposed to the virus? If they knew where to start what was the point in hacking others research? We are not even talking about m-RNA vaccine. We are talking about non-mRNA vaccines. Having said that sometimes you have to shell out money to research groups even though nothing might come out of it. There is no guarantee we will ever find a cure for AIDS, but that hasn't stopped governments from pouring money into finding the cure. Americans every year are pouring billions into AIDS research even though they are no where near to finding a cure. They approved funding for LIGO detector way back in 1990's. The first LIGO came online in 2002. And it was not until 2015 we discovered gravitational waves. Until then they kept giving money for the operation of LIGO and kept upgrading them to be more sensitive. It looks like Chinese are not willing to fail and learn from failures. They want a one shot solution for everything and they want it quickly. That is not how you can progress Scientifically over the long term.
 
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MonaLazy

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evaluated against their competitors' plan. Only winner will get the cheque
Who is this competition? Assuming One China every national expert (from your best universities or research labs) in a particular subject will be at the same tech level give or take. What is the basis for picking the winner?

Perhaps in that may lie the answer to re-energize India's moribund DRDO.
 

ym888

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--> I don't have an idea what you are trying to say in first point. My point was to build a strong base in the area one is working on. Without a strong base what ever you build is going to crumble. Science is built on strong foundations.
I don't think anyone here would deny that



A strong base and reverse engineering are not incompatible.



Reverse engineering is built on a strong base.



The Soviets acquired the AIM-9 and then built the K-13/R-3S missile,


If the US got Russian hypersonic missiles now, they would do the same this.
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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--> I don't have an idea what you are trying to say in first point. My point was to build a strong base in the area one is working on. Without a strong base what ever you build is going to crumble. Science is built on strong foundations. Newtonian Physics is still relevant even though it is more than 300 years old. I highly doubt Germans were reverse engineering on a vast scale. Germany was literally the spiritual capital of Physics and Mathematics before WW2. They are the ones who built first Jet Engines and Rockets and lot of other crazy stuff. Americans did not reverse engineer, they simply kidnapped German Scientists after WW2 to make them work for them in return for giving immunity from prosecution. Werner von Braun was one such guy who was responsible for Americans landing on the moon. Operation paper clip has all the details of kidnapped Nazi Scientists working for Americans after WW2. In addition to that in return for US providing aid to UK during WW2, UK transferred all the technical innovation up until WW2 to USA to maintain war effort. Read up on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizard_Mission This in addition to migration of bright minds from all over the world after WW2 made America Technological super power.

--> Are you saying Chinese did not know how to develop a COVID vaccine even though they were the first to get exposed to the virus? If they knew where to start what was the point in hacking others research? We are not even talking about m-RNA vaccine. We are talking about non-mRNA vaccines. Having said that sometimes you have to shell out money to research groups even though nothing might come out of it. There is no guarantee we will ever find a cure for AIDS, but that hasn't stopped governments from pouring money into finding the cure. Americans every year are pouring billions into AIDS research even though they are no where near to finding a cure. They approved funding for LIGO detector way back in 1990's. The first LIGO came online in 2002. And it was not until 2015 we discovered gravitational waves. Until then they kept giving money for the operation of LIGO and kept upgrading them to be more sensitive. It looks like Chinese are not willing to fail and learn from failures. They want a one shot solution for everything and they want it quickly. That is not how you can progress Scientifically over the long term.
Exactly. The CCP thinks that they can quickly get to technological pinnacle without spending time and money on it. They think that just like they rapidly poured concrete everywhere, they can also discover technology everywhere. The CCP funded state labs and companies have not come up with a single reliable biomedical device or pharmaceutical product. Even the masks they made for the Wuhan virus disaster was deemed unfit for use. Their reverse engineered Wingloong drones, frigates, carriers, railway locomotives etc are unreliable. This is all because of trying to quickly engineer a product without having to go through the high failure rate R&D process. I think they will get better at it as time goes on and they keep learning from failures. But as of today , Chinese civilian or military technology is nowhere near western or Japanese or Israeli tech in most fields.
 

Concard

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I don't think anyone here would deny that



A strong base and reverse engineering are not incompatible.



Reverse engineering is built on a strong base.



The Soviets acquired the AIM-9 and then built the K-13/R-3S missile,


If the US got Russian hypersonic missiles now, they would do the same this.
Reverse Engineering is not built on strong base. When you have a strong base you will lead in Scientific invention and discovery. But reverse engineering itself is not wrong as you are trying to analyze the workings of particular object and gain knowledge on how things are working when they are put together.

If the US got Russian hypersonic missiles now, they would do the same this.
You think Americans don't have Hypersonic missile technology? 😂
 

no smoking

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--> I don't have an idea what you are trying to say in first point. My point was to build a strong base in the area one is working on. Without a strong base what ever you build is going to crumble. Science is built on strong foundations. Newtonian Physics is still relevant even though it is more than 300 years old. I highly doubt Germans were reverse engineering on a vast scale. Germany was literally the spiritual capital of Physics and Mathematics before WW2....... This in addition to migration of bright minds from all over the world after WW2 made America Technological super power.
Kid, before 1900s, Germanies were lagging behind British in industrial technologies, that was why British introduced "made in German" brand in 1887. This was particularly aimed at Germany because people suspected that Germans were copying British products.

American? Well, in 19 century too, actively "borrow" the ideas and machines designs from British.

--> Are you saying Chinese did not know how to develop a COVID vaccine even though they were the first to get exposed to the virus? If they knew where to start what was the point in hacking others research?
......
They want a one shot solution for everything and they want it quickly. That is not how you can progress Scientifically over the long term.
Alright, as long as you believe these.
 

Concard

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Kid, before 1900s, Germanies were lagging behind British in industrial technologies, that was why British introduced "made in German" brand in 1887. This was particularly aimed at Germany because people suspected that Germans were copying British products.

American? Well, in 19 century too, actively "borrow" the ideas and machines designs from British.



Alright, as long as you believe these.
Dude, if you think you sound smart by patronizingly calling me as "Kid" you will probably end up looking stupid here. This will be my last reply to this topic as I don't want this thread to be hijacked.

I am not sure where you got the idea that Germans were behind British in industrial technologies. Industrial revolution was started in UK and that is only because they had access to raw materials and markets from their colonies. Germans and French were not far behind. Since British and Germans were at logger heads in 19th century and early 20th century, Anglo-historians have downplayed the capabilities of Germans. Germany as a nation state was formed in 1871. Within 10 years of formation of Germany they brought in German Tariff of 1879 which imposed tariffs on industrial and agricultural imports into Germany. And who would bring tariffs on imported products if they don't have confidence in their own industry? If German products weren't as capable as the ones made by British they wouldn't put tariffs on them.

Since Germany did not have colonies like UK to tap into raw materials and markets, they had to look within their own country. That is where Ruhr region became one of the industrial heartlands in Europe which also continues to this day. In Ruhr region they had access to Iron ore and coal, primary raw materials needed for industrial revolution at that time. https://www.zum.de/whkmla/sp/0708/yongho/yongho2.html#III2

That Germans had superiority in chemical and electrical goods was unquestionable. Arthur Balfour who was UK PM from 1903-1905 had this to say in 1907.

"We are probably fools not to find a reason for declaring war on Germany before she builds too many ships and takes away our trade."

So this BS that Germans were lagging behind UK in 20th century during industrial revolution was a piece of propaganda spread by British and their cousins in US, Canada and Australia. German industry was not equal but surpassed British industry in many areas.

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And coming to your country China, you seem to have ego problem to accept China still doesn't have the scientific capability which it should have as the 2nd largest economy. Without all the espionage and stealing technology from other countries I don't see how China can make any progress on technology front. I will seal my argument with one real world example which happened for real. You are welcome to verify yourself.

Have you heard of the Chinese company Sinovel which makes wind turbines? While the Chinese company Sinovel knew how to make Wind turbines they did not know how to write software for it like controlling the angle of blades and aligning the blades for angle of attack in the direction of the wind. They used to deploy software from an American firm known as American Superconductor (AMSC). Sinovel true to it's Chinese characteristics bribed a Austrian based employee of American Superconductor and stole the source code. They have lost the case against AMSC in American court and are ordered to pay $59 million.


Now technically speaking if a country which boasts of producing fighter jets cannot write software for wind turbines and had to resort to stealing then somewhere something is amiss. Writing control laws and algorithms for fighter jets where human is in the loop is far more complex. Relatively speaking writing control laws and algorithms for wind turbines where there is no human in the loop is slightly more easier. Didn't Sinovel find any expert in control theory in China? Couldn't they partner with any University in China who were grad students or PhD students to come up with their own source code? Given average salaries in China they could have spent far less than $59 million they paid to AMSC to come up with their own source code weaning themselves off AMSC in the long term. It would have taken some time but with enough effort they would have become proficient in both building wind turbines and the software and offered them as a one stop solution to their customers.



 

no smoking

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Dude, if you think you sound smart by patronizingly calling me as "Kid" you will probably end up looking stupid here. This will be my last reply to this topic as I don't want this thread to be hijacked.
......
59 million they paid to AMSC to come up with their own source code weaning themselves off AMSC in the long term. It would have taken some time but with enough effort they would have become proficient in both building wind turbines and the software and offered them as a one stop solution to their customers.
The history I mentioned was 19th century, ok.
 

Love Charger

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Well, by your logic, they are doing purely by reverse-engineering, then how did they work out the WS-15? Also reverse-engineering or espionage? If so, how can you be sure that door can be close?



Yes, that is why you are desperately seeking partners on kaveri, right?
Well truth could not have spoken more correctly
 

LondonParisTokyo

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The US doesn't have hypersonic missiles. It was in controversy in the US recently as Matt Gaetz (good guy) asked the head of the DoD about it and he had nothing to say. And then the media (jew controlled) started attacking Gaetz for doubting the US military
 

no smoking

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The US doesn't have hypersonic missiles. It was in controversy in the US recently as Matt Gaetz (good guy) asked the head of the DoD about it and he had nothing to say. And then the media (jew controlled) started attacking Gaetz for doubting the US military
US doesn't need hypersonic missiles as desperate as Russia/China. The reason that Russia & China invest so much on hypersonic missiles is the fast growing missile-defense capability of US. On the other hand, both countries are lagging behind US on this part of technologies. In other words, in 5-10 years, US' existing missiles won't have problem to pernitrate Russian or Chinese NMD.
 

LondonParisTokyo

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US doesn't need hypersonic missiles as desperate as Russia/China. The reason that Russia & China invest so much on hypersonic missiles is the fast growing missile-defense capability of US. On the other hand, both countries are lagging behind US on this part of technologies. In other words, in 5-10 years, US' existing missiles won't have problem to pernitrate Russian or Chinese NMD.
Ok lol. Continue to live in your bubble friend
 

MonaLazy

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This Indian DeepTech startup has recently achieved a breakthrough in the design of State-of-the-Art Aero-Engines for Cruise Missiles and Large UAVs recognized by DPIIT “Startup India” program. With a team of 35 engineers including Chief Engineers with Global OEM experience and expertise, PhDs and talented graduates from Global Universities including students from IITs, Paninian has embarked on this challenging journey of designing and developing state of the art Aero-Engines also known as Turbofan Engines to power our critical Defence needs.

For the first time ever in the Indian private sector Paninian has successfully demonstrated the design and validation of a 4.5 KN Turbojet Engine which is further being developed into a family of engines in the range of 3-12 KN thrust, along with AI augmented digital twin companions.

The other breakthrough is in terms of developing an Artificial Intelligence driven Digital Twin for Legacy engine performance modelling and prognostics for supporting Mission performance and life extension efforts for IAF aircrafts like Jaguar, Sukhoi and Mirage 2000. This can now serve as a tool to study the extension of engines and greatly assist the IAF and Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification in their study of performance degradation. Such Digital Twin which are required for cutting-edge Prognostics, Engine Health and Performance Monitoring have been conceived entirely from scratch in India by Indian engineers. Now India can carry out life extension of engines locally and accurately without resorting to foreign assistance.

Dr.Gouda , a former Senior Scientist and Program Director in DRDO,currently serving as an technology advisor for Paninian, brought out that such digital twin can also be 3D printed to develop future power requirements of cruise missiles and large UAVs for India as well as for exports. “With design / development centres in Hyderabad, Bangalore and Pune, I feel Paninian is quite well poised to attract the very best of the global Indian talent in Engineering and Manufacturing to join in this exciting journey”, he added.

Paninian intends to develop and manufacture these complete families of engines ranging between 3-12 KN within India using state of the art 3D Printing technology.

The founder Raghu Adla also said that he’s “immensely grateful to many senior Industry leaders from Lockheed Martin, GE, Rolls Royce including senior leaders from DRDO, IAF, IIT and IISc research faculty who have been supporting this journey.” He also emphasised on the need for the public sector to support such start up efforts by providing grants, access to laboratories. He added that Paninian is seeking potential collaborations from both public and private players to help scale the effort further to successfully take this to the end users in the shortest time possible.

This innovation could go a long way in the “Make in India” program to make the country “Atma Nirbhar” in the strategic field of aero engines. “I am glad to dedicate this innovation to the country on the eve of “Azadi ka Amrut Mahotsav”, Raghu added.

Paninian is also participating in the upcoming Wargame conducted by Insighteon Consulting, a pioneer consulting firm in Aerospace and Defence, to identify barriers in the development of indigenous aero engines in India, being held in August 2022.

Wargame link - https://www.insighteonconsulting.co...india-identifying-and-overcoming-barriers.php


Indian version of China's thousand talents program?
 
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