Kaveri Engine

radion

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Sir your optimism matches with @Hari Sud @HariPrasad-1
That's not optimism,that's copium. We are born talented?? How many hours do you think the sculptor and his team put into his skills before making a marvel like that? No body is born talented,they get there through hard work,passion and their brain. Learning a skill,refining it and repeating it until it is as natural as breathing is how people reach there.

Reverse engineering a product does not close the gate to innovation.
 

jai jaganath

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That's not optimism,that's copium. We are born talented?? How many hours do you think the sculptor and his team put into his skills before making a marvel like that? No body is born talented,they get there through hard work,passion and their brain. Learning a skill,refining it and repeating it until it is as natural as breathing is how people reach there.

Reverse engineering a product does not close the gate to innovation.
Bro even I am proud of our hindu architecture but in case of engines Chinese model could prove very good and importantly fast so better will be their product and importantly their no of production which helps them to rectify issues and bring the best possible out of it
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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One thing people are forgetting...there are newer ways of manufacturing parts quickly and simulating them for defects and fit. 3D printing technology which India has access to is one of them. Many rocket parts are now being built with 3D technology vastly speeding up launch vehicle development.
What India needs to focus on are:
- developing precision tools industry to japanese and western standards
- materials science R&D to western standards (IISc is getting there but needs that last mile push)
- increase scale of 3D printing in manufacturing
- scale the use of supercomputers to simulate manufacturing defects

Once you have these, critical technology like gas turbines including aircraft engines can be layered on top of this. Aircraft engines are not the only critical manufacturing tech we lack in. The entire thing needs a different thinking from the government. Draw up a list of 5 core technologies that India must become world beating in. Invest in and build out those technologies however you need to - steal, borrow, short cut, reverse engineer, expensive hire of top global talent especially Indian talent from western countries whatever. You have to go about it like a maniac. Finance it by putting a cess on all Indians to fund these R&D. And no matter which party is in power, this financing and pursuit of technology must continue until goals are met. This is the western model. No matter who is in power, certain things are never compromised. This allows for decades long development cycles without getting disrupted by democratic politics. For this to happen, the political setup has to be mature and visionary. And India is long ways from that.
 

no smoking

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Chinese believe is reverse engineering. The moment that door is closed, they can't do much Innovation. They are limited by their ideology.
Well, by your logic, they are doing purely by reverse-engineering, then how did they work out the WS-15? Also reverse-engineering or espionage? If so, how can you be sure that door can be close?

We may take 10 more or 15 years, but one we are there and independent, no one can stop us to rule the asia. My humble opinion.

This is what we can do my friend, we are born talented, we just don't know it yet.
Yes, that is why you are desperately seeking partners on kaveri, right?
 

no smoking

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Aren't you Chinese? Then why talk of "them" in third person?
First of all, I have an Australian citizenship now working and living in Australia. So whatever they achieve or fail is not directly affecting me.
Secondly, I have never contributed anything in Chinese military industries. So I am an outsider, I am not in the position to speak on behalf of them.
 

no smoking

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Reverse engineering a product does not close the gate to innovation.
Of course reverse engineering doesn't close the gate to innovation because reverse engineering is only the step before innovation, every lagging behind country is doing, including India. Did you see Indian scientists design various wired shaped or structured engines to evaluate? Of course not, because US/Russia engines already show you what a jet engine should be, why waste money and time to come up something different? So, for every new comer in modern technologies, the first thing they do is to open the latest product and study it, which is reverse-engineering.
The next step will involve innovation since your industrial departments won't be able to 100% replicate the advancer's techs: your materials are heavier, your machines can't produce the component in that small size. So you have to do innovation now - design your own component with your own material and machines, or just figure out new materials or new machines. There is a lot of innovations involved here.
After the engines are tested, certified and started to mass production, your customers will raise more requests: lighter, smaller, more power, etc, etc. Now, you have to your own innovations on top of the mature product.
 

MonaLazy

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Of course reverse engineering doesn't close the gate to innovation because reverse engineering is only the step before innovation, every lagging behind country is doing, including India. Did you see Indian scientists design various wired shaped or structured engines to evaluate? Of course not, because US/Russia engines already show you what a jet engine should be, why waste money and time to come up something different? So, for every new comer in modern technologies, the first thing they do is to open the latest product and study it, which is reverse-engineering.
The next step will involve innovation since your industrial departments won't be able to 100% replicate the advancer's techs: your materials are heavier, your machines can't produce the component in that small size. So you have to do innovation now - design your own component with your own material and machines, or just figure out new materials or new machines. There is a lot of innovations involved here.
After the engines are tested, certified and started to mass production, your customers will raise more requests: lighter, smaller, more power, etc, etc. Now, you have to your own innovations on top of the mature product.
Other than the fact that reverse engineering is illegal- it is a very pragmatic approach.
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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Of course reverse engineering doesn't close the gate to innovation because reverse engineering is only the step before innovation, every lagging behind country is doing, including India. Did you see Indian scientists design various wired shaped or structured engines to evaluate? Of course not, because US/Russia engines already show you what a jet engine should be, why waste money and time to come up something different? So, for every new comer in modern technologies, the first thing they do is to open the latest product and study it, which is reverse-engineering.
The next step will involve innovation since your industrial departments won't be able to 100% replicate the advancer's techs: your materials are heavier, your machines can't produce the component in that small size. So you have to do innovation now - design your own component with your own material and machines, or just figure out new materials or new machines. There is a lot of innovations involved here.
After the engines are tested, certified and started to mass production, your customers will raise more requests: lighter, smaller, more power, etc, etc. Now, you have to your own innovations on top of the mature product.
But the Chinese consulate in Houston was shut down due to IP theft. The Australian government acknowledged and supported that US action. So your government says China is a thief while India is not. It is not a question of just reverse engineering but doing so by stealing IP. India does not steal IP - hence it takes longer to R&D. The inferior J20 was made possible only by theft of F35 IP. Several Chinese have been arrested in the US for passing on state secrets. The question then becomes - can a thief outwit the original owner? No they cannot.
 

Concard

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Other than the fact that reverse engineering is illegal- it is a very pragmatic approach.
Reverse Engineering is not illegal. Violating Intellectual property rights is. Now coming to the question of Chinese reverse Engineering and their espionage of IP from Western companies I will add my 2 cents here.

I am a STEM person. Studied in India and abroad. While in India the emphasis was more on preparing for exams and scoring well in exams. In a western country the emphasis was more on understanding the subject matter well and ability to think out of the box or solving a problem through different method. Basically it is all about pushing the boundaries of human knowledge. Let me give you a simple example. In one of the exams while I was abroad in a particular subject there was a question which I couldn't figure out the solution. I employed a approach to find the solution. The approach was right and I made a small mistake in the final answer especially in the arithmetic calculations. When I went to check my paper, Professor gave me full points for the solution I have written. I was surprised since there was a mistake in the final answer and asked the Professor why? He gave me an answer which no Indian Professor/Lecturer ever gave "In the real world you can check twice or thrice and can correct your arithmetic calculations, but if your approach itself is wrong then you will never arrive at the final answer." That is why he gave me full points. In India you very well know you would have never gotten full points for the answer.

In Western countries they want to exploit the full potential of the student. They want originality. John Nash was so confident in Mathematical skills, he never went to classes at Princeton. The reason he gave for missing classes was "He wanted to retain his originality." Plagiarism, academic dishonesty is frowned upon in the West even in mediocre Universities. They want students to use their mental muscle that is their brain to come up with answers. And they are very tolerant to failure. Failures are not considered as a stigma. Now Chinese might be stealing some tech and propping up their military and tech industry but there will be a sealing beyond which they cannot progress further. Sure reverse engineering will not close the gates of innovation. They might make small improvements here and there and make that product created by stolen technology better. But Science is painstakingly built on trail and error. You don't straight away learn Einstein's general theory of relativity in Physics. You start with Newton's laws and then progress further building upon that knowledge. It is not just "know how" but also "know why?". The fact that Chinese government are willing to throw money at a problem and yet they still want to steal technology seems to me that most of their researchers don't know where to start and might as well have their original thinking eroded.

Test a child by teaching some example problems and give that child exercise problems to solve. The child might solve some problems and in some problems child might have failed fully. But the child understanding of the subject would have extended beyond the example problems. Chinese are like solve example problems and copy the solutions of the exercise problems. They will only go so far.

To conclude, doing reverse engineering is fine. At the end of the day there are no short cuts in Science. You got to do the hard research and come up with solutions on your own. This requires creating solid primary and secondary education where talents are nurtured. And creating Universities where the sole emphasis is on pushing the boundaries of human knowledge. I have simplified my argument here. But I hope you got my point.
 

ym888

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Reverse Engineering is not illegal. Violating Intellectual property rights is. Now coming to the question of Chinese reverse Engineering and their espionage of IP from Western companies I will add my 2 cents here.

I am a STEM person. Studied in India and abroad. While in India the emphasis was more on preparing for exams and scoring well in exams. In a western country the emphasis was more on understanding the subject matter well and ability to think out of the box or solving a problem through different method. Basically it is all about pushing the boundaries of human knowledge. Let me give you a simple example. In one of the exams while I was abroad in a particular subject there was a question which I couldn't figure out the solution. I employed a approach to find the solution. The approach was right and I made a small mistake in the final answer especially in the arithmetic calculations. When I went to check my paper, Professor gave me full points for the solution I have written. I was surprised since there was a mistake in the final answer and asked the Professor why? He gave me an answer which no Indian Professor/Lecturer ever gave "In the real world you can check twice or thrice and can correct your arithmetic calculations, but if your approach itself is wrong then you will never arrive at the final answer." That is why he gave me full points. In India you very well know you would have never gotten full points for the answer.

In Western countries they want to exploit the full potential of the student. They want originality. John Nash was so confident in Mathematical skills, he never went to classes at Princeton. The reason he gave for missing classes was "He wanted to retain his originality." Plagiarism, academic dishonesty is frowned upon in the West even in mediocre Universities. They want students to use their mental muscle that is their brain to come up with answers. And they are very tolerant to failure. Failures are not considered as a stigma. Now Chinese might be stealing some tech and propping up their military and tech industry but there will be a sealing beyond which they cannot progress further. Sure reverse engineering will not close the gates of innovation. They might make small improvements here and there and make that product created by stolen technology better. But Science is painstakingly built on trail and error. You don't straight away learn Einstein's general theory of relativity in Physics. You start with Newton's laws and then progress further building upon that knowledge. It is not just "know how" but also "know why?". The fact that Chinese government are willing to throw money at a problem and yet they still want to steal technology seems to me that most of their researchers don't know where to start and might as well have their original thinking eroded.

Test a child by teaching some example problems and give that child exercise problems to solve. The child might solve some problems and in some problems child might have failed fully. But the child understanding of the subject would have extended beyond the example problems. Chinese are like solve example problems and copy the solutions of the exercise problems. They will only go so far.

To conclude, doing reverse engineering is fine. At the end of the day there are no short cuts in Science. You got to do the hard research and come up with solutions on your own. This requires creating solid primary and secondary education where talents are nurtured. And creating Universities where the sole emphasis is on pushing the boundaries of human knowledge. I have simplified my argument here. But I hope you got my point.
What you said is so good


You do a good job of explaining why Indian pharmaceutical companies can't develop new drugs
 
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Concard

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What you said is so good


You do a good job of explaining why Indian pharmaceutical companies can't develop new drugs
Indian pharmaceutical companies initially focused on generic drugs. The aim was to save lives. So, yes they did copy western made drugs. No shit. It is already there in public domain. Indian government also encouraged this and once a IP around a drug expires they were able to mass produce at a low cost and even export it.

It's only in the recent years new drug companies are focusing on R & D as they have the capital to invest in discovering new drugs. Having said that why has China with all the financial might and also the origin of Corona virus never been able to develop mRNA vaccine? Western countries who were exposed to Corona virus after many months came up with effective mRNA vaccine. But Chinese vaccines even the non-mRNA are not effective. That is why all the lock downs I guess.

Even India has now a mRNA vaccine for Corona, where is Chinese mRNA vaccine? Oops, it's still a work in progress since hackers were not successful in stealing information.




Funny, Chinese hackers even wanted to hack Indian vaccine makers Bharat biotech and Serum institute whose vaccines were non-mRNA.


Since you think Indian pharma companies have nothing of value I wonder why Chinese are interested in Indian pharma companies then.


Anyway I don't want to derail the thread. Mods can move this messages to appropriate thread.
 

HariPrasad-1

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Chinese believe is reverse engineering. The moment that door is closed, they can't do much Innovation. They are limited by their ideology.
We may take 10 more or 15 years, but one we are there and independent, no one can stop us to rule the asia. My humble opinion.

This is what we can do my friend, we are born talented, we just don't know it yet.

View attachment 165810

View attachment 165811
Yes, this is a land where rishis got enlightenment from almighty which spread across in different form. We have the science to make engine god who can tell us how to make engine like Ramanujan's godess used to tell her about maths formulae.
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

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The most advanced mRNA vaccine in China at present. In the final phase of phase 3 clinical trials in foreign countries
You mean the salt water they injected into a billion Chinese people and then UAE people. Then the UAE people kicked out the CCP snake oil vaccine and shifted to AstraZeneca? The only reason the CCP is doing the zero CCP virus drama is because they know the “CCP vaccine” does not work and the peasants will hang all the party secretaries if the virus spreads. Good luck with that. What the CCP morons do not get is that peasants like you will die of famine before you die of the Wuhan virus. Lol.
 

armortec

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Reverse Engineering is not illegal. Violating Intellectual property rights is. Now coming to the question of Chinese reverse Engineering and their espionage of IP from Western companies I will add my 2 cents here.

I am a STEM person. Studied in India and abroad. While in India the emphasis was more on preparing for exams and scoring well in exams. In a western country the emphasis was more on understanding the subject matter well and ability to think out of the box or solving a problem through different method. Basically it is all about pushing the boundaries of human knowledge. Let me give you a simple example. In one of the exams while I was abroad in a particular subject there was a question which I couldn't figure out the solution. I employed a approach to find the solution. The approach was right and I made a small mistake in the final answer especially in the arithmetic calculations. When I went to check my paper, Professor gave me full points for the solution I have written. I was surprised since there was a mistake in the final answer and asked the Professor why? He gave me an answer which no Indian Professor/Lecturer ever gave "In the real world you can check twice or thrice and can correct your arithmetic calculations, but if your approach itself is wrong then you will never arrive at the final answer." That is why he gave me full points. In India you very well know you would have never gotten full points for the answer.

In Western countries they want to exploit the full potential of the student. They want originality. John Nash was so confident in Mathematical skills, he never went to classes at Princeton. The reason he gave for missing classes was "He wanted to retain his originality." Plagiarism, academic dishonesty is frowned upon in the West even in mediocre Universities. They want students to use their mental muscle that is their brain to come up with answers. And they are very tolerant to failure. Failures are not considered as a stigma. Now Chinese might be stealing some tech and propping up their military and tech industry but there will be a sealing beyond which they cannot progress further. Sure reverse engineering will not close the gates of innovation. They might make small improvements here and there and make that product created by stolen technology better. But Science is painstakingly built on trail and error. You don't straight away learn Einstein's general theory of relativity in Physics. You start with Newton's laws and then progress further building upon that knowledge. It is not just "know how" but also "know why?". The fact that Chinese government are willing to throw money at a problem and yet they still want to steal technology seems to me that most of their researchers don't know where to start and might as well have their original thinking eroded.

Test a child by teaching some example problems and give that child exercise problems to solve. The child might solve some problems and in some problems child might have failed fully. But the child understanding of the subject would have extended beyond the example problems. Chinese are like solve example problems and copy the solutions of the exercise problems. They will only go so far.

To conclude, doing reverse engineering is fine. At the end of the day there are no short cuts in Science. You got to do the hard research and come up with solutions on your own. This requires creating solid primary and secondary education where talents are nurtured. And creating Universities where the sole emphasis is on pushing the boundaries of human knowledge. I have simplified my argument here. But I hope you got my point.
I would say that UK education too has become fully exam oriented. Not only for the students but the teachers and schools care more for box-ticking and passing inspections than education. I would say for anyone studying STEM is to not just be booksmart but gain practical experience where possible. For example don't just learn about acoustics but perhaps try to build a loudspeaker.
 

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