Kaveri Engine

vishnugupt

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6 billion ! 😅 .. Why not make testing ecosystem in the country for engine and make something with public private partnership . It ll cost less . We dont have to share IP with anyone . But anything is better than inertia and doldrum .
One time investment so better go with it.

Just think we used spared Money of 30% discount from Russian oil import.

Chinese who stolen everything from Pentagon are yet to complete engine development now imagine India's situation.
 

saketkr

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It's a bit old but nice to see when people who are full of knowledge talk calmly.
I saw it today for the first time, so sharing it.
Thanks @DeadCritic for sharing the very informative discussion on the past and future of the Kaveri engine program. It seems everyone agree that partnership with SAFRAN is our best bet. Previous experience with Vikas & Shakti engines might be the reason of trust. RAFALE deal has mane facets and if used judiciously it might be a great catalyst for the development of Indian MIC.
 

WolfPack86

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FRENCH ENGINE MAKER SAFRAN SET TO OPEN SHOP IN INDIA... AND MORE
"Other than the joint venture, the two sides will also discuss several projects that are in pipelines," sources in the HAL said. As per the reports, Safran will invest $150 million in setting up the facility


Giving a further boost to the government's ambitious 'Aatmanirbhar Bharat' campaign, a team from French engine-maker Safran would fly to India to forge a joint venture with state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to set up a Maintenance Repair and Overhaul facility for leading-edge aviation propulsion (LEAP) commercial aircraft engines, this weekend.

"Other than the joint venture, the two sides will also discuss several projects that are in pipelines," sources in the HAL said.

The MRO facility will be set up by the company as part of its offset commitments. As per the reports, Safran will invest $150 million in setting up the facility.

At this facility, the company will also service engines from other Asian countries and Africa. It should be noted that the 36 Rafale fighter jets that the Indian Air Force acquired from France in readymade condition are equipped with Safran's M88 engines.

Besides, choppers like Dhruv and Rudra are also fitted with Safran's Indian variant of Shakti engines.

In 2019, the French engine maker had given a proposal to the DRDO to co-develop with DRDO's Gas Turbine Research Establishment a 125kn thrust engine for the fifth-generation advanced medium combat aircraft twin-engine (AMCA) fighter project.

The project was discussed between External Affairs Minister S Jaishankar with French Defence Minister Florence Parly during his visit to Paris in February this year.

In December 2021, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh announced that a major French engine-making company will invest in India to make the engine in strategic partnership with an Indian company. The announcement was made when his French counterpart Florence Parly was on an India visit.

The AMCA project, which is being designed and developed by the Aeronautical Development Agency, will be a 25-ton jet with an internal carriage of 1,500 kg of payload and a 5,500 kg external payload with 6,500 kg of internal fuel.

As per the reports, the Critical Design Review will be completed by end of this year and has been planned to roll out in 2024 with the first flight in 2025.
 

Flying Dagger

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Are you saying, we need to pay for improved f414 [4.5th gen engine & like uae f16 bk60] and without tot or major benefits and no 5th gen engine ?
I haven't said what you said... Or posted.


1. We are already going to payup for the engine. Instead of getting them in batches and eventually paying more. We can become partner by investing in the dec version and bring some part of production here in India .

2. Benefit for us is we will probably have our own spare parts production capability build in few years and this will also assure Tejas / AMCA teddy etc have a more efficient and capable engine.
 

no smoking

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6 billion ! 😅 .. Why not make testing ecosystem in the country for engine and make something with public private partnership . It ll cost less . We dont have to share IP with anyone . But anything is better than inertia and doldrum .
It will cost less in the long run (40 or 50 years later), but it will definitely cost lot more in short term.

If you look at Chinese: it took them 30 years (1965-1995) and over 2 billion to build their high altitude testing facility alone.
And since the whole testing facilities in place, they have been running at full speed. According to the rumors of internet, after almost 30 years experiments, Chinese scientists themselves estimate the data they accumulated so far is less than 25% of what Americans have.
 

johnj

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I haven't said what you said... Or posted.


1. We are already going to payup for the engine. Instead of getting them in batches and eventually paying more. We can become partner by investing in the dec version and bring some part of production here in India .

2. Benefit for us is we will probably have our own spare parts production capability build in few years and this will also assure Tejas / AMCA teddy etc have a more efficient and capable engine.
What spare parts production ?
GE 414 comes with local production capability.
HAL building AL-31 from scratch.
What kind of partnership, like brahmos or barak 8 or f16bk60 or AL-31 or f35 ?
 

Flying Dagger

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What spare parts production ?
GE 414 comes with local production capability.
HAL building AL-31 from scratch.
What kind of partnership, like brahmos or barak 8 or f16bk60 or AL-31 or f35 ?
It doesn't come with local production right away. We have to confirm a bigger order for them to justify cost. It's a proposition by them. If we confirm a order right away with realisation that Indian engine ain't coming soon , better for us.

It doesn't come up with improved efficiency and thrust either. We have to payup for that too and since these aircrafts will be powered through the 40s with same engine better we up them right away and wait for the Safran JV to workout.

As far as how much investment will be made what will be made How much willing USA will be to share is something technical bureaucracy will sort out not me or you.
 

johnj

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It doesn't come with local production right away. We have to confirm a bigger order for them to justify cost. It's a proposition by them. If we confirm a order right away with realisation that Indian engine ain't coming soon , better for us.

It doesn't come up with improved efficiency and thrust either. We have to payup for that too and since these aircrafts will be powered through the 40s with same engine better we up them right away and wait for the Safran JV to workout.

As far as how much investment will be made what will be made How much willing USA will be to share is something technical bureaucracy will sort out not me or you.
''It'' means ge414 right ?
India choosed to buy 99 ge414 with local production, initial batch comes from oem, and rest produced by hal and ge already started supply of ge414.
Also I read some ware hal considering mro/production of ge404.
According to ada, amca use same ones like mwf, 98kn.
Local production depends on customer, and no.of units doesn't matter, 5 or 5k, and initial production setup cost remains same, then transfer of tech and oem having no issues if price/profit is right/good.
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In the case of ge jv - no ones knows what it means, maybe like uae deal [f16] or again fooling us, considering zero tech transfer after buying 15plus billion $ weapons till date.
According to me, it is to sabotage french jv with india.
 

Anandhu Krishna

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6 billion ! 😅 .. Why not make testing ecosystem in the country for engine and make something with public private partnership . It ll cost less . We dont have to share IP with anyone . But anything is better than inertia and doldrum .
Investing 6B and not building infra in India would be just another stupid decision in the series of stupid decisions.
 

Anandhu Krishna

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Thanks @DeadCritic for sharing the very informative discussion on the past and future of the Kaveri engine program. It seems everyone agree that partnership with SAFRAN is our best bet. Previous experience with Vikas & Shakti engines might be the reason of trust. RAFALE deal has mane facets and if used judiciously it might be a great catalyst for the development of Indian MIC.
Best bet is to go with Safran and simultaneously develop kaveri. An article talked about a 75kn dry variant of the jv engine. Wonder if its for the Aura that was supposed to get a dry kaveri.
 

DeadCritic

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These discussions are well thought out.
Any investment without JV will put India's long-term self-reliant goal at big risk, moreover, India always had a good experience working as JV with french people.
Also, this JV does not mean that GTRE will stop developing new technologies, companies like Kalyani have so much information repository in the metallurgy domain. I am pretty sure there are many companies now targeting civil aviation engines as well. Private entities need to step up and create their own JV for world-class products to sell in the global market.
 

MonaLazy

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There is lot of tricks can play within this 100% IPR. You have to understand there are lots of IPRs are owned by GE, Snecma's suppliers, such as raw material, processing tools, etc.
They can give you the blue print and assembling map, then give your freedom of produce and sales. That is 100% IPR but in actual, it doesn't help your learning about jet engine. Remember: IPR is opening knowledge already. Those critical ones are never made public. That is where the TOT is really about. Sometimes, the engineers don't even know where the tech issues are until they start to produce completely independently.

One good example is: Chinese deal of Spey from UK. It was supposed to be 100% IPR deal too. But after British left, it took Chinese almost 20 years to figure out all the tech issues.
No, no one want to replicate Brahmos model. That was the best deal India can get when Russia was in the most difficult period. Even Russians themselves don't want to repeat.
@no smoking @LondonParisTokyo your thoughts on this Franco-Indian JV? I remember you dismissed it as an impossibility some time back saying Brahmos model won't work with engines. But here it is, being put into place, for sharing super secret tech-


Defence Diary: Rajnath Singh-Safran CEO Meeting is a Step Towards India’s Search For Indigenous Fighter Jet Engines
 

LondonParisTokyo

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@no smoking @LondonParisTokyo your thoughts on this Franco-Indian JV? I remember you dismissed it as an impossibility some time back saying Brahmos model won't work with engines. But here it is, being put into place, for sharing super secret tech-


Defence Diary: Rajnath Singh-Safran CEO Meeting is a Step Towards India’s Search For Indigenous Fighter Jet Engines
If this really happens, you can guarantee India will buy at least another 32 Rafale
 

Dark Sorrow

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@no smoking @LondonParisTokyo your thoughts on this Franco-Indian JV? I remember you dismissed it as an impossibility some time back saying Brahmos model won't work with engines. But here it is, being put into place, for sharing super secret tech-


Defence Diary: Rajnath Singh-Safran CEO Meeting is a Step Towards India’s Search For Indigenous Fighter Jet Engines
We are paying 6Billion USD to just develop a engine. Infrastructure and test facility cost will be different.
It is no where near Brahmos model which we got for dirt cheap.
But as we are negotiating from a disadvantageous position and this engine is need for the hour such price is acceptable.
 

LondonParisTokyo

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We are paying 6Billion USD to just develop a engine. Infrastructure and test facility cost will be different.
It is no where near Brahmos model which we got for dirt cheap.
But as we are negotiating from a disadvantageous position and this engine is need for the hour such price is acceptable.
Anything worth doing has a very very high upfront cost. When you first exercise, you push yourself too hard and get injured. But as you get better, you realize you don't need to work so hard and instead become more efficient with your time and energy expenditure. It's the same.
 

no smoking

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@no smoking @LondonParisTokyo your thoughts on this Franco-Indian JV? I remember you dismissed it as an impossibility some time back saying Brahmos model won't work with engines. But here it is, being put into place, for sharing super secret tech-

OTE="MonaLazy, post: 2298554, member: 30231"]
You just ignore one of the key difference between missile and jet engine: the missile has much higher tech tolerance than jet engine. In the case of Brahmos, the design of each component is more important than the manufacturing. As soon as the blue print is passed to India, the core techs are already in India's hands. Even if Russia cancels the deal tomorrow, India will still be able to continue the production. The worst consequence is India's brahmos will be heavier, bigger, shorter range and less accurate. But India forces can still work with it, right?
Jet engine is a different case: the secret of manufacturing is as same important as the design if not more important. All of these manufacturing technologies are the most advanced part of these countries' industrial departments, such as chemical, machineries, metal refines, etc, etc. There is no country will and no country can do that scale of tech transfer, it is like re-build the whole industrial base in India. Without these manufacturing technologies, can India still use her own machine and materials to produce the same jet engine? The answer is NO. You will encounter a lot issues: India's materials don't have the same strength, India's machines can't provide the same precision, etc, etc. The result will be the engine produced by yourselves is bigger, heavier. So it can no longer be fit in the original plane.
Then you have 2 choices: 1. Re-design the plane (at the cost of plane's capability); 2. Upgrade your industrial techs to develop one engine of your own (which will cost you hundreds of billions dollars and another 20 years at least).
 

SimplyIndian

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It will cost less in the long run (40 or 50 years later), but it will definitely cost lot more in short term.

If you look at Chinese: it took them 30 years (1965-1995) and over 2 billion to build their high altitude testing facility alone.
And since the whole testing facilities in place, they have been running at full speed. According to the rumors of internet, after almost 30 years experiments, Chinese scientists themselves estimate the data they accumulated so far is less than 25% of what Americans have.
Chinese believe is reverse engineering. The moment that door is closed, they can't do much Innovation. They are limited by their ideology.
We may take 10 more or 15 years, but one we are there and independent, no one can stop us to rule the asia. My humble opinion.

This is what we can do my friend, we are born talented, we just don't know it yet.

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jai jaganath

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