Kaveri Engine

Dark Sorrow

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Just look at China, with a much serious sanction imposed on her for almost 20 years, she still managed to continue her rocket program. But with a much better environment from 1980, it took them 35 years to a indigenous jet-engine ready (still with foreign concept and techs). On top of that, we have to add on 20 years effort of reverse-engineering Soviet old engines prior to 1980. What this history tells us? Developing a modern jet engine is much much more difficult than rocket and rocket engine. Even Iran, North Korea can development their own rocket in house.
I would like to add one point. Rocket engine is in a sense use and throw. the are not reused much (it at all they are reused). Jet engine needs to be made available on an average for 8000 hours. This makes jet engine a difficult technology.
Jet engine has to sustain thermal stress, mechanical stress and metal fatigue for a large duration.
Jet engine also have to be light, have smaller and moving components.
 

Concard

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I would like to add one point. Rocket engine is in a sense use and throw. the are not reused much (it at all they are reused). Jet engine needs to be made available on an average for 8000 hours. This makes jet engine a difficult technology.
Jet engine has to sustain thermal stress, mechanical stress and metal fatigue for a large duration.
Jet engine also have to be light, have smaller and moving components.
Modern Rocket Engines are not easier to master even if it is use and throw. And the cryogenic technology is also not easy either. Yes, relatively speaking rockets are much easier than Jet Engines.
 

MonaLazy

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Here's hoping US can pull an AUKUS here by swooping down at the last minute and offering core technologies from F414EPE & ADVENT and whatever else it takes to power our future fighters.

🤞


Report: US revives offer to cooperate with India on the development of jet engine technology which to power Indian Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) General Electric (GE) of the US, has submitted a proposal for co-development of a 110 kn thrust engine (F414 EPE) with India.


US Revives Offer To Co-Develop AMCA Fighter Jet Engine With India
American turnaround overrides “export control” concerns which aborted an earlier bid for collaboration on jet engine technology through DTTI in 2019

Photo Credit : ADA

A graphic illustration of India’s futuristic Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)
27June, 2022
by Vishal Thapar

The US has revived an offer to cooperate with India on the development of jet engine technology which could be used to power India’s futuristic Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

General Electric (GE) of the US, one of the world’s leading manufacturers of jet engines, has submitted a proposal for the co-development of a 110 kn thrust engine with Indian agencies.

Top military sources have confirmed to BW Businessworld that GE is being considered along with Safran of France and Rolls Royce of the UK for collaboration on the AMCA engine.

“The options for a tie-up are open from among the three contenders. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is the lead agency and a private Indian entity is also likely to be involved in the programme,” sources disclosed.

The revival of US interest in the fighter engine programme is significant. An earlier proposal for collaboration on jet engine technology under the India-US Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI) was suspended in October 2019 on account of American reluctance to share core or hot engine technology. A joint working group on jet engine technology under the DTTI framework was thereafter disbanded.

The suspension of cooperation on jet engines was announced in New Delhi by Ellen Lord, the then US Under Secretary of Defence for Acquisition and Sustainment who was the co-chair of the India-US DTTI.

“We did run into challenges in terms of US export controls,” she had then acknowledged. Lord said the two sides could not come to an understanding of what exportable technologies would be useful to India.
There’s been simultaneous interest expressed by Safran and Rolls Royce for the engine co-development programme. These bids are energetically supported by their respective Governments.

Industry watchers read the US turnaround as a bid to retain its lead in powering India’s indigenous fighter jet programme, a position it does not wish to cede to European engine makers. The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is powered by the GE-F404 engine, which has an 85 kn thrust. India’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)’s plans for the LCA Tejas Mk-2, AMCA Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft and the Twin Engine Deck-Based Fighter (TEDBF) are also closely woven around the 98 kn thrust GE-F414 engine. Several hundred of these aircraft will be produced.

Only when the AMCA programme matures to the Mk-2 level does the ADA envisage switching from a GE-F414 to an indigenous engine with a higher 110 kn thrust. It is for the development of that engine that India is seeking foreign collaboration. The AMCA Mk-2 production timelines commence around 2035. ADA also plans powering subsequent batches of the 26-ton TEDBF with the same indigenous engine as the AMCA’s.
The revival of the GE bid to co-develop the AMCA engine coincides with the development of an "Enhanced Performance Engine" or "EPE" variant of the GE-F414 for the US Navy. "The Enhanced Performance Engine includes a new core and a redesigned fan and compressor. It offers up to a 20 per cent thrust boost, increasing it to 26,400 pounds (120 kN), giving an almost 11:1 thrust/weight ratio,” it’s been stated. This matches or slightly exceeds the requirement for the AMCA Mk-2. Hence, GE will be ready with technologies required for a 110 kn engine required by India.

Sources also disclosed that the EPE will have the same dimensions as the original GE-F414 variant. Hence, no modifications will be required to the air frame for fitment or retro-fitment on the initial variants of the AMCA, the TEDBF and even the Tejas Mk-2. India, of course, doesn’t seek a hand-me-down solution but wants to gain knowhow and know why through this programme to design, develop and produce jet engines on its own in the future.

 
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MonaLazy

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US Revives Offer To Co-Develop AMCA Fighter Jet Engine With India

So between Safran, RR & GE India is truly spoilt for choice! From the Indian side lead agency will be GTRE/DRDO but who will the private Indian entity be? Bharat Forge? LT? Tata? How miffed will France be if they get squeezed out of yet another gigantic deal by the Americans, after AUKUS? :eek1:

Own ₹ .02 - US is two generations ahead of everyone else in the world in terms of jet engine tech. If they offer engine know how and know why to us- we must grab it with both hands.


The USAF is ahead of the rest of the world in zeroth order, first order and even second order in terms jet engine technology development. Here comes the newest concept technology in the town, rotating detonation engine. It has given an R&D contract to P&W

In zero'th order, by which I mean contemporary low bypass jet engine technology it is already heads and shoulder ahead of the rest of the world and is still working on improving it for its current 4th generation fighter and bomber fleet.

In the 1st order, even while it is working on this upgrade, it has already worked with GE and successfully prototyped the Adaptive Cycle engine that will become part of the F-35 fleet by the end of the decade. So not just ahead but already developed the next gen of propulsion.

And now even when the next gen ADVET engine is under advanced stages of commercialization, it has already embarked on concept evaluation research & development of the next generation of propulsion technologies with the rotational detonation concept.

By not just moving one step ahead but increasing its pace of tech discovery and development US gets to control the paradigm of the tech in this domain for the next 30 - 50 years and dictate and control the direction, pace and nature of the tech from a dominant position.

Now, us the rest of the world, naturally get attuned to the idea that Adaptive cycle engine is the next gen and Rotation detonation is the tech gen after that. We never get a chance to explore newer paradigms on our own. We are already brought into this framework where the US

has first mover advantage as well as early mastery over the tech. Knowing the rest of the world's end users (armed forces and civilian), having no original conceptual capability of their own they would be forced to pursue this cycle, tune their tech upgrade & warfare strategies

around what the USAF has set. This will also make the armed forces push their local MICs to "make what the US has achieved in this tech" rather than being able to expolit any original capabilities that the respective nations' MICs may have. Pretty smart move.

To cut it short, by virtue of USAF being two steps ahead in the tech curve, it is able to determine the brochure specs and hence the GSQR of platforms that will be demanded by worldwide armies 2 decades down the line. Cause it has determined what the next tech is going to be.

1656383520229.png
 

India Super Power

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Report: US revives offer to cooperate with India on the development of jet engine technology which to power Indian Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) General Electric (GE) of the US, has submitted a proposal for co-development of a 110 kn thrust engine (F414 EPE) with India.


US Revives Offer To Co-Develop AMCA Fighter Jet Engine With India
American turnaround overrides “export control” concerns which aborted an earlier bid for collaboration on jet engine technology through DTTI in 2019

Photo Credit : ADA

A graphic illustration of India’s futuristic Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)
27June, 2022
by Vishal Thapar

The US has revived an offer to cooperate with India on the development of jet engine technology which could be used to power India’s futuristic Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

General Electric (GE) of the US, one of the world’s leading manufacturers of jet engines, has submitted a proposal for the co-development of a 110 kn thrust engine with Indian agencies.

Top military sources have confirmed to BW Businessworld that GE is being considered along with Safran of France and Rolls Royce of the UK for collaboration on the AMCA engine.

“The options for a tie-up are open from among the three contenders. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is the lead agency and a private Indian entity is also likely to be involved in the programme,” sources disclosed.

The revival of US interest in the fighter engine programme is significant. An earlier proposal for collaboration on jet engine technology under the India-US Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI) was suspended in October 2019 on account of American reluctance to share core or hot engine technology. A joint working group on jet engine technology under the DTTI framework was thereafter disbanded.

The suspension of cooperation on jet engines was announced in New Delhi by Ellen Lord, the then US Under Secretary of Defence for Acquisition and Sustainment who was the co-chair of the India-US DTTI.

“We did run into challenges in terms of US export controls,” she had then acknowledged. Lord said the two sides could not come to an understanding of what exportable technologies would be useful to India.
There’s been simultaneous interest expressed by Safran and Rolls Royce for the engine co-development programme. These bids are energetically supported by their respective Governments.

Industry watchers read the US turnaround as a bid to retain its lead in powering India’s indigenous fighter jet programme, a position it does not wish to cede to European engine makers. The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is powered by the GE-F404 engine, which has an 85 kn thrust. India’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)’s plans for the LCA Tejas Mk-2, AMCA Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft and the Twin Engine Deck-Based Fighter (TEDBF) are also closely woven around the 98 kn thrust GE-F414 engine. Several hundred of these aircraft will be produced.

Only when the AMCA programme matures to the Mk-2 level does the ADA envisage switching from a GE-F414 to an indigenous engine with a higher 110 kn thrust. It is for the development of that engine that India is seeking foreign collaboration. The AMCA Mk-2 production timelines commence around 2035. ADA also plans powering subsequent batches of the 26-ton TEDBF with the same indigenous engine as the AMCA’s.
The revival of the GE bid to co-develop the AMCA engine coincides with the development of an "Enhanced Performance Engine" or "EPE" variant of the GE-F414 for the US Navy. "The Enhanced Performance Engine includes a new core and a redesigned fan and compressor. It offers up to a 20 per cent thrust boost, increasing it to 26,400 pounds (120 kN), giving an almost 11:1 thrust/weight ratio,” it’s been stated. This matches or slightly exceeds the requirement for the AMCA Mk-2. Hence, GE will be ready with technologies required for a 110 kn engine required by India.

Sources also disclosed that the EPE will have the same dimensions as the original GE-F414 variant. Hence, no modifications will be required to the air frame for fitment or retro-fitment on the initial variants of the AMCA, the TEDBF and even the Tejas Mk-2. India, of course, doesn’t seek a hand-me-down solution but wants to gain knowhow and know why through this programme to design, develop and produce jet engines on its own in the future.

I don't think we should go forward with this nit becoz unreliability and all
But us always does it when some deals are very close to be signed
My problem itne mushkil se kuch ho raha hai now considering anything else will consume a lot 9f time which hazardous for already delayed project
Hope we don't fall into this trap and continue with france
 

TopWatcher

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I don't think we should go forward with this nit becoz unreliability and all
But us always does it when some deals are very close to be signed
My problem itne mushkil se kuch ho raha hai now considering anything else will consume a lot 9f time which hazardous for already delayed project
Hope we don't fall into this trap and continue with france
Right, How suddenly US offering Jet engine technology , it means , we are achieving something.

Better never go with US.
 

Asmaka Mahajanapada

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If we are ok with going for US collaboration in the first place, we could have selected Rolls Royce instead of Safran. I don't think we will decline the French offer and switch sides. Let's not mess this up and delay further.
 

DEV1729

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MonaLazy

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The usa will cancel like it did with dtti jet engine
how about we build in an appropriately hefty delay & cancellation penalty? Since it will be an agreement that will be up for negotiation- we can bake in adequate safeguards.
 

sakalasiva

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how about we build in an appropriately hefty delay & cancellation penalty? Since it will be an agreement that will be up for negotiation- we can bake in adequate safeguards.
Ok we will have agreement like we have offset clause. Still if they want they will dump us what we done to offset clause violators nothing. Tommorow also if they violate also we can do nothing. It's a trap USA never want India to be self sufficient I hope India won't fall for this. USA is most in reliable partner.
 

flanker99

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how about we build in an appropriately hefty delay & cancellation penalty? Since it will be an agreement that will be up for negotiation- we can bake in adequate safeguards.
Even if we do if the goal of USG is to derail the project then they will still cancel even if it cost them money
Our options against these companies is limited they are needed to keep the aerospace industry going .
Better to stick with the french deal
 

shade

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Report: US revives offer to cooperate with India on the development of jet engine technology which to power Indian Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) General Electric (GE) of the US, has submitted a proposal for co-development of a 110 kn thrust engine (F414 EPE) with India.


US Revives Offer To Co-Develop AMCA Fighter Jet Engine With India
American turnaround overrides “export control” concerns which aborted an earlier bid for collaboration on jet engine technology through DTTI in 2019

Photo Credit : ADA

A graphic illustration of India’s futuristic Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)
27June, 2022
by Vishal Thapar

The US has revived an offer to cooperate with India on the development of jet engine technology which could be used to power India’s futuristic Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

General Electric (GE) of the US, one of the world’s leading manufacturers of jet engines, has submitted a proposal for the co-development of a 110 kn thrust engine with Indian agencies.

Top military sources have confirmed to BW Businessworld that GE is being considered along with Safran of France and Rolls Royce of the UK for collaboration on the AMCA engine.

“The options for a tie-up are open from among the three contenders. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is the lead agency and a private Indian entity is also likely to be involved in the programme,” sources disclosed.

The revival of US interest in the fighter engine programme is significant. An earlier proposal for collaboration on jet engine technology under the India-US Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI) was suspended in October 2019 on account of American reluctance to share core or hot engine technology. A joint working group on jet engine technology under the DTTI framework was thereafter disbanded.

The suspension of cooperation on jet engines was announced in New Delhi by Ellen Lord, the then US Under Secretary of Defence for Acquisition and Sustainment who was the co-chair of the India-US DTTI.

“We did run into challenges in terms of US export controls,” she had then acknowledged. Lord said the two sides could not come to an understanding of what exportable technologies would be useful to India.
There’s been simultaneous interest expressed by Safran and Rolls Royce for the engine co-development programme. These bids are energetically supported by their respective Governments.

Industry watchers read the US turnaround as a bid to retain its lead in powering India’s indigenous fighter jet programme, a position it does not wish to cede to European engine makers. The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is powered by the GE-F404 engine, which has an 85 kn thrust. India’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)’s plans for the LCA Tejas Mk-2, AMCA Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft and the Twin Engine Deck-Based Fighter (TEDBF) are also closely woven around the 98 kn thrust GE-F414 engine. Several hundred of these aircraft will be produced.

Only when the AMCA programme matures to the Mk-2 level does the ADA envisage switching from a GE-F414 to an indigenous engine with a higher 110 kn thrust. It is for the development of that engine that India is seeking foreign collaboration. The AMCA Mk-2 production timelines commence around 2035. ADA also plans powering subsequent batches of the 26-ton TEDBF with the same indigenous engine as the AMCA’s.
The revival of the GE bid to co-develop the AMCA engine coincides with the development of an "Enhanced Performance Engine" or "EPE" variant of the GE-F414 for the US Navy. "The Enhanced Performance Engine includes a new core and a redesigned fan and compressor. It offers up to a 20 per cent thrust boost, increasing it to 26,400 pounds (120 kN), giving an almost 11:1 thrust/weight ratio,” it’s been stated. This matches or slightly exceeds the requirement for the AMCA Mk-2. Hence, GE will be ready with technologies required for a 110 kn engine required by India.

Sources also disclosed that the EPE will have the same dimensions as the original GE-F414 variant. Hence, no modifications will be required to the air frame for fitment or retro-fitment on the initial variants of the AMCA, the TEDBF and even the Tejas Mk-2. India, of course, doesn’t seek a hand-me-down solution but wants to gain knowhow and know why through this programme to design, develop and produce jet engines on its own in the future.

Amreeka Ki Saazish to get us to buy their F-16 rebrand and F-18s.
Go with Safran instead imo.
 

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