Kaveri Engine

alex86neo

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2021
Messages
15
Likes
34
Country flag
Yes, turboshaft engines for ALH Dhruv & LUH materialized thanks to HAL's partnership with Safran. They have also taken the closest look yet at Kaveri for any outsider and know exactly where we are in jet engine tech.

France is any day better than US or UK as a strategic partner- going purely by their track record France has exhibited a mostly independent foreign policy.

Let's just ignore the Mistrals for Russia.
:rofl:
Plz read the link

Yes, turboshaft engines for ALH Dhruv & LUH materialized thanks to HAL's partnership with Safran. They have also taken the closest look yet at Kaveri for any outsider and know exactly where we are in jet engine tech.
 

MonaLazy

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Messages
526
Likes
2,910
backstabb us
Isn't it too late for that! Mk1, Mk1A, Mk2, AMCA & TEDBF are all dependent on Uncle. Given it is not a very comfortable position to be in- but we are already in it!! I am thinking ahead from there. Why we did not pick EJ200 for Tejas is anybody's guess- I think it was because of mileage and the EJ was a fuel guzzler. GoI/IAF prioritized daily flying costs over strategic autonomy.

also why should we invest in an engine if we don't get any know how and know why and IP rights.
Jet engine R&D is a high stakes game- so it presents many opportunities for cost optimisation.

$50B (own 110kN) - $3B (EPE) = $47B

If a partnership with RR or Safran materialises we have to pay $50B in the 10 years from 2022-2032 to see the engine become a reality. Spread evenly (in reality, the costs will be skewed to be exceptionally higher upfront when all the facilities are set up) it is $5B per year for the next 10 years with the proverbial pie only at the end of the tunnel.

Scenario 1: No EPE
$50B in 10 years for R&D with foreign partner+ $10m per vanilla 414 to go into Mk2 & AMCA Mk1+ later $7m per Indian owned jet engine (assuming cheaper costs with no royalty & Indian labour) to be ready by 2035 just in time for AMCA Mk2 and then later to go into MLUs of Mk2 and AMCA Mk1.

Scenario 1: Yes EPE
$50B in 20 years for R&D with foreign partner+ $3B for EPE realisation + $10m per EPE 414 to go into Mk2 & AMCA Mk1

the biggest advantage is you get to spread the ginormous $50B over many more years and get more capable Mk2 & AMCA from day 1 powered by EPE. AMCA Mk2 is de-risked because you have the 110kN you need in 2035 available to you many many years earlier. Our own engine can come into MK2 and AMCA Mk1 as the 3rd or even 4th engine over the life of the airframe.

Also 414 won't be manufactured entirely in Bharat, it's just screwdriver giri
With 1000 engines at stake to be built and flying in India, I am sure we can get a good deal with Uncle. Just see how the American eagle swooped down on the Ozzie submarine deal dislodging the French. America offered nuke subs in place of diesel-electric because $40B was the size of the pie.

I am not advocating dropping the indigenous effort-but that we can afford to go slow there and have a more capable Mk2, AMCA & TEDBF from day 1 powered by EPE 414. Infact we can redefine the indigenous effort to incorporate IR reduction, higher electric power generation and other 5th gen fighter jet engine requirements. Throw in adaptive cycle engine tech also! If we have more time at hand we can demand more from the foreign partner esp since they have their own SCAF/FCAS/Tempest in the pipeline. So we can be in 10-15 years where the Americans are today. All these advantages may offset the pure screwdrivergiri to some extent.
 

THESIS THORON

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2021
Messages
1,493
Likes
6,838
Country flag
well, the problem in kaveri is with metallurgy.

imo, main thing which is responsible is our overhyping of fields like cse and electrical branches and leaving other research oriented branches like aerospace engg, material sciences, natural sciences. Most of top-notch researches happen in govt funded iits and nits there person having high marks in jee-m/adv always go to cse and electrical and other fields are left.

And even after world class students going in cse and elec we havent got any major breakthrough in those fields also.

:crying::crying:
 

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
4,484
Likes
1,236
Country flag
I am not advocating dropping the indigenous effort-but that we can afford to go slow there and have a more capable Mk2, AMCA & TEDBF from day 1 powered by EPE 414. Infact we can redefine the indigenous effort to incorporate IR reduction, higher electric power generation and other 5th gen fighter jet engine requirements. Throw in adaptive cycle engine tech also! If we have more time at hand we can demand more from the foreign partner esp since they have their own SCAF/FCAS/Tempest in the pipeline. So we can be in 10-15 years where the Americans are today. All these advantages may offset the pure screwdrivergiri to some extent.
So, you basically suggesting that if your children couldn't get good scores to graduate from high school, just put them into the university, they will succeed there? Not sure if that is going to work out.
 

MonaLazy

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Messages
526
Likes
2,910
children couldn't get good scores to graduate from high school, just put them into the university, they will succeed there?
No.

Never underestimate your children (GTRE) even if they aren't getting good scores today (Kaveri). If you want them to start excelling in class (fulfilling IAF ASQR) get them the best subject specific notes in town now (GE EPE) so they pass this academic year with flying colours while parallely working on bettering their own note taking skills (w/ Safran or RR) for the future.

Wierd analogy but I'm not the one that started it.
 

Spitfire9

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
642
Likes
1,746
Country flag
Isn't it too late for that! Mk1, Mk1A, Mk2, AMCA & TEDBF are all dependent on Uncle. Given it is not a very comfortable position to be in- but we are already in it!! I am thinking ahead from there. Why we did not pick EJ200 for Tejas is anybody's guess- I think it was because of mileage and the EJ was a fuel guzzler. GoI/IAF prioritized daily flying costs over strategic autonomy.



Jet engine R&D is a high stakes game- so it presents many opportunities for cost optimisation.

$50B (own 110kN) - $3B (EPE) = $47B

If a partnership with RR or Safran materialises we have to pay $50B in the 10 years from 2022-2032 to see the engine become a reality. Spread evenly (in reality, the costs will be skewed to be exceptionally higher upfront when all the facilities are set up) it is $5B per year for the next 10 years with the proverbial pie only at the end of the tunnel.

Scenario 1: No EPE
$50B in 10 years for R&D with foreign partner+ $10m per vanilla 414 to go into Mk2 & AMCA Mk1+ later $7m per Indian owned jet engine (assuming cheaper costs with no royalty & Indian labour) to be ready by 2035 just in time for AMCA Mk2 and then later to go into MLUs of Mk2 and AMCA Mk1.

Scenario 1: Yes EPE
$50B in 20 years for R&D with foreign partner+ $3B for EPE realisation + $10m per EPE 414 to go into Mk2 & AMCA Mk1

the biggest advantage is you get to spread the ginormous $50B over many more years and get more capable Mk2 & AMCA from day 1 powered by EPE. AMCA Mk2 is de-risked because you have the 110kN you need in 2035 available to you many many years earlier. Our own engine can come into MK2 and AMCA Mk1 as the 3rd or even 4th engine over the life of the airframe.



With 1000 engines at stake to be built and flying in India, I am sure we can get a good deal with Uncle. Just see how the American eagle swooped down on the Ozzie submarine deal dislodging the French. America offered nuke subs in place of diesel-electric because $40B was the size of the pie.

I am not advocating dropping the indigenous effort-but that we can afford to go slow there and have a more capable Mk2, AMCA & TEDBF from day 1 powered by EPE 414. Infact we can redefine the indigenous effort to incorporate IR reduction, higher electric power generation and other 5th gen fighter jet engine requirements. Throw in adaptive cycle engine tech also! If we have more time at hand we can demand more from the foreign partner esp since they have their own SCAF/FCAS/Tempest in the pipeline. So we can be in 10-15 years where the Americans are today. All these advantages may offset the pure screwdrivergiri to some extent.
Interesting ideas.

F404, F414 and EPE would allow all current and proposed aircraft to be covered in a timely manner at a cost of $3 billion perhaps before the cost of buying/building the engines locally is incurred.

If GOI was prepared to make a strategic investment in engine development, each year spending more than the entire investment on Kaveri, in order to develop a 100kN engine in 15 years, that engine could be used to replace Tejas Mk1 (derated), Mk2, TEDBF. ORCA - if that materialises - and AMCA Mk1 engines. Those types will need a lot of replacement engines over their service lives.

Stage 2 could be to find another 10% thrust to replace AMCA Mk2 engines.

What are the chances of GOI stumping up the funds?
 

Spitfire9

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
642
Likes
1,746
Country flag
Funds will be found for sure. Jet engine is too strategic & too much at stake here- the entire future IAF fighter fleet. The only question is how much and when.
Wasn't Kaveri a strategic move where the future of India's home grown independent fighter capability depended on it? IIRC GOI was only prepared to provide miniscule funds for its development. I hope they (GOI) have wised up if they choose to fund development of an engine again. I think that providing a quarter or a half or three quarters of what funding is needed will result in a failure. Kaveri was a failure but a cheap one. Next time round failure will be very, very much more expensive.
 

Lonewolf

Psychopathic Neighbour
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2021
Messages
4,682
Likes
14,479
Country flag
Wasn't Kaveri a strategic move where the future of India's home grown independent fighter capability depended on it? IIRC GOI was only prepared to provide miniscule funds for its development. I hope they (GOI) have wised up if they choose to fund development of an engine again. I think that providing a quarter or a half or three quarters of what funding is needed will result in a failure. Kaveri was a failure but a cheap one. Next time round failure will be very, very much more expensive.
Political ideologies were quite different now and then ,stance has changed for some good as well as few bad
 

MonaLazy

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Messages
526
Likes
2,910
Wasn't Kaveri a strategic move where the future of India's home grown independent fighter capability depended on it?
No. It was more like a great if it works otherwise just too bad. LCA was never planned to be our frontline fighter.

Reference


Kaveri engine development is part of the overall LCA program - true - however it was well understood that this aspect of the program would be singularly the riskiest one and is thus well mitigated for (hint: decision timeline for getting GE F-404 and the fact that absolutely no redesign/analysis etc required for matching the F404 engine Fans with the air-inlet design - it was as if the whole airframe was built around F404).
So whilst it is unfortunate that Kaveri program itself didn't deliver, the overall program itself (from a platform-availability to the end-user perspective) was not delayed because of this unavailability.
Next time round failure will be very, very much more expensive.
This time Mk2, AMCA, TEDBF depend on it- that is a lot and Mk2 will be the backbone for IAF, TEDBF for IN and AMCA will be the pointiest tip of the IAF spear. All critical strategic projects. But again 414 and its enhancements will be the plug and play fall back should things not work out as planned.
 

Spitfire9

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
642
Likes
1,746
Country flag
No. It was more like a great if it works otherwise just too bad. LCA was never planned to be our frontline fighter.

Reference






This time Mk2, AMCA, TEDBF depend on it- that is a lot and Mk2 will be the backbone for IAF, TEDBF for IN and AMCA will be the pointiest tip of the IAF spear. All critical strategic projects. But again 414 and its enhancements will be the plug and play fall back should things not work out as planned.
Well, apart from ACMA Mk2, engines are available for the other indigenous projects... so long as the supplier country does not cut availability. That is why I talked of India taking a strategic decision to develop Kaveri for Tejas as a matter of creating an independent fighter capability. It was almost inconceivably unlikely to happen with minimal funding. What did GOI do? Provide minimal funding.

Why do you say that this time round, post Tejas Mk1, fighters developed depend on an Indian engine?
 

RoaringTigerHiddenDragon

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2020
Messages
872
Likes
4,584
Country flag
well, the problem in kaveri is with metallurgy.

imo, main thing which is responsible is our overhyping of fields like cse and electrical branches and leaving other research oriented branches like aerospace engg, material sciences, natural sciences. Most of top-notch researches happen in govt funded iits and nits there person having high marks in jee-m/adv always go to cse and electrical and other fields are left.

And even after world class students going in cse and elec we havent got any major breakthrough in those fields also.

:crying::crying:
I dont think it has to do with metallurgy either. India has enough universities and research establishments like IISc (btw IISc is ranked higher than IITs) , TIFR and BARC etc. There is something else. I heard that the technology to make propeller blades from single crystals is where the bottle neck is. I am not sure why we could not grow crystals repeatedly over the last 20-30 years to see if it fits the exacting demands of high temperature environments. I have no idea what is needed to do so? I think the Americans and Brits took about 20 years from the end of WW2 to make jet engines. If it could be done then, we should have been able to do it now. I guess we were so behind in all sorts of manufacturing technologies and ecosystems (due to no industrial revolution here) that we just have not reached a stage to be able to put together an ecosystem to make a jet engine reliably. I think it is just a lack of overall manufacturing excellence and ecosystems rather than any particular field of science or engineering.
 

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
4,484
Likes
1,236
Country flag
No.

Never underestimate your children (GTRE) even if they aren't getting good scores today (Kaveri). If you want them to start excelling in class (fulfilling IAF ASQR) get them the best subject specific notes in town now (GE EPE) so they pass this academic year with flying colours while parallely working on bettering their own note taking skills (w/ Safran or RR) for the future.

Wierd analogy but I'm not the one that started it.
What notes? Does GE agree a great amount of TOT? If not, only purchasing GE engine does help IAF but not indigenous engine industry.
No matter what problem that Kaveri has now, the best solution is fixing the problems, make it work and put it into mass production.
 

MonaLazy

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Messages
526
Likes
2,910
Well, apart from ACMA Mk2, engines are available for the other indigenous projects
That's true. What I am suggesting is a better engine that the best of the planet's engine houses (GE) is at the verge of realising could be plonked into these planes making them that much more capable from get go. Just like 404 > 414 in the Mk1/1A to Mk2 is a quantum jump in capability.

Why do you say that this time round, post Tejas Mk1, fighters developed depend on an Indian engine?
The 98kN 414 for Mk2/AMCA Mk1 is good, but more is always better esp as power requirements bloat over the life of an aircraft.

So the 110 kN engine can be plugged into Mk2/AMCA Mk1 making them more capable (I'm fairly certain this backporting is the MLU plan for these planes if they start out with 98kN but we have 110kN engine available in 15-20 years).

This enhanced engine could either be the 414 EPE by 2025 or a Safran/RR aided effort by 2035. Having the same power in a compatible form factor available 10-15 years earlier is the key.
 

MonaLazy

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Messages
526
Likes
2,910
What notes?
Do try & wrap your brains around it. Already regretting indulging your inaccurate children example.

Does GE agree a great amount of TOT? If not, only purchasing GE engine does help IAF but not indigenous engine industry.
GE agrees to 0 ToT. What I am advocating suits both the indigenous effort and the IAF better imo.

No matter what problem that Kaveri has now, the best solution is fixing the problems, make it work and put it into mass production.
That goes without saying, however, is the Kaveri as it was envisaged in 1985 relevant for fighter application today? Also, thrust is NOT the problem- GTRE achieved more thrust in a previous iteration of the engine. The key is achieving that in a restricted diameter and length.

Recommended reading: https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6726&hilit=Kaveri

Kaveri was technology-wise contemporary till late 90s - ok, maybe even early 2000s. Directionally Solidified Casted blades, Flat rating concept, near to 1400deg C TeT, 21-22 OPR etc are all hall marks of late 1990s military engines either being unveiled and in mass-use then.
So should we label it as contemporary engine, carte blanche - hell no!!

Contemporary (1990s) Engine R&D and it’s impact on Kaveri: The thing that happened is, while we were busy developing Kabini/Kaveri, the established engine developers were all into deep R&D and prototyping of the next gen technologies, broadly in the following areas:
1) Turbine Blade material technology - TET increase is one of the most important factors impacting efficiency levels of turbojet/turbofan. And herein the material and casting technology able to withstand additional 300deg C operating env - SCBs partly answers that problem, but TBCs, introduction of higher temp oxidation resistance properties and multi-flow air path within the blades are areas where huge progress was made.

2) Compressor Design - Some sort of a re-birth of this dormant R&D area happened in the 1990s, with surge in R&D (back to basics phenomena?) in the 90s, resulting in huge (some say game-changer) advancement seen in 2000s. Compressor design gains (and to an equally important aspect of the developing an industrial manufacturing capability to translate these design gains to actual manufactured products) direct have a bearing on Pressure Ratios, the other most critical parameter in a turbojet/turbofan.

The advent of supersonic compressor blade speed (1.6M - while Kaveri is stuck at transonic level of 1.2M etc), multi-circular blade design (kaveri, I think, is at best double-circular arc design), low-aspect ratio blade design and more importantly, the advances required in manufacturing engineering technology R&D (and subsequent manufacturing engineering capability) to be able to translate these designs into a high-strength and relatively high-temp compressor blades and disks, ensured that achievement of 2000s contemporary PR levels of 28-30.

So yes, the technology levels that we see in Kaveri/Kabini are what were already available in the military engines on 1980s and 1990s - i.e. these were in R&D and developed in 1970s and 1980s. We started the R&D and development in 1990s and two decades later (slightly more than what has been achieved by the western engine design houses in 1960-70s, maybe) we have close to a working engine.
But the engines available today (F414, for example) have already incorporated the technologies that were developed in 1990s and 2000s.
 

Bhumihar

Cheeni KLPDhokebaaz
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2017
Messages
9,907
Likes
39,364
Country flag
well, the problem in kaveri is with metallurgy.

imo, main thing which is responsible is our overhyping of fields like cse and electrical branches and leaving other research oriented branches like aerospace engg, material sciences, natural sciences. Most of top-notch researches happen in govt funded iits and nits there person having high marks in jee-m/adv always go to cse and electrical and other fields are left.

And even after world class students going in cse and elec we havent got any major breakthrough in those fields also.

:crying::crying:
Scientific discoveries aren't product of meticulous intellect but meticulous effort.

In case of India u don't have the right ecosystem for such things.
 

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
4,484
Likes
1,236
Country flag
Do try & wrap your brains around it. Already regretting indulging your inaccurate children example.
GE agrees to 0 ToT. What I am advocating suits both the indigenous effort and the IAF better imo.
Wasn't you saying:"get them the best subject specific notes in town now (GE EPE) so they pass this academic year with flying colours "?

If GE doesn't provide TOT, what you learn?

That goes without saying, however, is the Kaveri as it was envisaged in 1985 relevant for fighter application today? Also, thrust is NOT the problem- GTRE achieved more thrust in a previous iteration of the engine. The key is achieving that in a restricted diameter and length.

Recommended reading: https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6726&hilit=Kaveri
You do realise that most of the news in your source are 2014. And now is 2021, nothing happened.
This tell you something.
 

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top