Just Who Is Not A Kafir?

[Oracle]

ajtr are you pakistani in disguise as indian one of those wanna be indians

This has nothing to do with the topic JP. Please focus.

 

[ajtr]

Sects are always to divide people, not unite, which sect on the face of the planet has preached homogeneity & pluralism
These sects & religious people use divinity to gain their interests,Just as i am thinking about it, these sect thingy will go on forever there nothing you can do nothing to stop it, better learn to live with it & stop preaching hate for different sects & separate religion from state affairs... har cheez ke had hote ha

Islamic Renaissance just like the Christian one.

 

[Zaki]

Sects are always to divide people, not unite, which sect on the face of the planet has preached homogeneity & pluralism
These sects & religious people use divinity to gain their interests,Just as i am thinking about it, these sect thingy will go on forever there nothing you can do nothing to stop it, better learn to live with it & stop preaching hate for different sects & separate religion from state affairs... har cheez ke had hote ha

hehehe so that means i better not join your sect. I thought you are trying to promote peace but seems like we are going to have another sect = more divisions
Is se to acha hai main jaisa hon waisa hi theek hon - Only a Muslim

 

[Oracle]

keep Ahmedis away ajtr, they have nothing to do with us, its a simple logic but some people aren't able to understand and keep trying to stand them in the same rows of Muslims

Can you please throw some light on how Ahmadis are non muslims?

hahaha, well its actually a large population. But you are right, i myself consider themself as Muslim as long as they are not crossing their limits

Also, how Shia's are muslims if they do not cross their limits? Could you please be brief as to what are you talking about?

 

[thakur_ritesh]

ejazr,

really apprecite your time staking, well rounded and detailed replies, thanks a lot.

Kafir or Kufr means rejector (of faith), it does not apply to all non-muslims first of all.

okay that is an interesting take, so who all other than the muslims are not considered as kafirs and why?

 

[ejazr]

^^Kafir is literally someone who knows the truth and tries to hide it or conceal. In Islamic terms a non-muslim first has to be presented the true face of Islam before he/she can even reject it. So how can a non-muslim who has never head about Islam or never seen the true picture about Islam be a Kafir(rejector)? They can't and according to consensus God will judge them on the basis of their deeds. This like I mentioned is the tradional consensus view. Infact, accordomg to some scholars the muslims themselves will be liable for questioning on the day of judgement for not presenting Islam in the true way or being the cause of pushing people away from Islam.
Hence the preferred term is ghair-muslim or non-muslim rather than Kafir as not all non-muslims are Kafir.

You will also hear other extreme views as well as liberal views such as people of the book category that includes Jews, Christians, and even Zorastrians and Vedantists (i.e. Hindus who are monotheists). As there is no fixed Church in Islam it is basically a "Free market" of theological positions and the scholar who can better proove their viewpoint is the most accepted one or the consensus one.

Wikipedia has a more or less accurate entry as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir

 

[DaRk WaVe]

Ideologically TTP are very different from Afghan Taliban.

Explain!!!

TTP leadership is heavily dominated byPunjabi extremists

Wrong, last time i heard all of their big guns were Pushtoons, Punjabi Taliban is a wholly different breed or should i say they are more sectarian people

TTP is way more dangerous ideologically than Afghan Taliban.

Heads of the same monster, I can't believe that even Indians make distinctions b/w AT & TTP :emot100:

- All aboard the militants train – The Express Tribune

• Tehreek-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) is busy recruiting fresh blood from the city to train and fight against 'infidels' in Afghanistan
  
• Discussing his hopes for the future, Ali said that "After conquering Afghanistan, we will implement Shariah in Karachi."

 

[Vinod2070]

hehehe, because they are never among us. The minimum criteria to become Muslim is

1) One and only one God
2) Believe in All Prophets
3) Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is the Last Messenger
4) Believe in all Holy Books of God

Thats a very basic criteria

These are necessary conditions but not sufficient. You also need to believe that the previous book (Bible) has become corrupted. So while all holy books (???) need to be respected, there are no original holy books at all except one!

I have to admire your criteria.

 

[ejazr]

Can you please throw some light on how Ahmadis are non muslims?

This is to do with the finality of the Prophethood of Muhammed SAW. It is the core of the Islamic faith. There is no one worthy of Worship except one God and Muhammed is his final Messenger.

however, if Im not mistaken a big chunk of the Ahmedis have now renounced the prophethood proclamation of Ghulam Ahmed and consider him as the Mehdi or Messiah. But again, this is the end of times theories and the prophecy is about the Mehdi being an Arab from Mecca not a Punjabi in the sub-continent. But if you read through their history, they were quite similar to the conspiracy theorists and end of time sects that claim that the Messiah is here. They had a very dedicated missionary network that went around converting people to their sect not only in the sub-continent but in Europe as well.

Also, how Shia's are muslims if they do not cross their limits? Could you please be brief as to what are you talking about?

Shias believe in the finality of the prophethood of Muhammed SAW. Hence the difference.

 

[samarsingh]

Why should Ahamdi be kept away???Today its Ahmadi tomorrow it will be some other sect. there is no end to it

With respect to Ahmadis, since it is a recent movement/development we know that it flourished under British patronage. I believe it was a mutually beneficial relationship . I do not want to be any more explicit than this for the fear of offending some DFIers here. But if we go back further in history the same can be said of every religion. Constantine embraced Christianity and "Pagan" Rome became Christian. Saffavids made Shia Islam as state religion and Sunnis in Iran were persecuted. The same holds true for Hindu and Buddhist Kings in India.
The point I am trying to make is since religion is such a sensitive issue, state should keep out of it. So perhaps it wasn't prudent to pass Ordinance XX. Now in Hindsight it sort of gives sanction to atrocities against Ahmadis.
Btw in India non muslims consider Ahmadis as Muslims and even Judiciary has upheld their right to call themselves as Muslims ((Shihabuddin Koya vs. Ahammed Koya, A.I.R. 1971 Ker 206).
But Indian Muslims do not allow Ahmadis to sit on the All India Muslim Personal Law Board. So I can understand the situation in Pakistan.
But that does not give anyone the right to carry out attacks on Ahmadis.
I personally think of Ahmadis as a "British legacy", much like Palestine and Northern Ireland and I apologise if I have offended anyone.
btw even Ismailis were very friendly with the British.

this is fom wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aga_Khan_III
"Sultan Mahommed Shah, Aga Khan III, GCSI, GCMG, GCIE, GCVO, PC (November 2, 1877 – July 11, 1957) was the 48th Imam of the Shia Ismaili Muslims. He was one of the founders and the first president of the All-India Muslim League, and served as President of the League of Nations from 1937-38."

so many abbreviations (recognitions from British empire), then why only blame Mirza Ghulam Ahmad?

 

[thakur_ritesh]

hehehe, because they are never among us. The minimum criteria to become Muslim is

1) One and only one God
2) Believe in All Prophets
3) Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is the Last Messenger
4) Believe in all Holy Books of God

Thats a very basic criteria

who defines this, is it stated somewhere or is it some interpretation of a cleric/scholar?


ejazr,

i had this question for quite some time. why do rajputs who took to islam still associate with their hindu past by calling themselves as muslim rajputs and have not changed their surnames and when they do that dont they still believe in caste system and can such people be really treated as muslims, and since they cling on to their past of rajputs do they in any other way also associate with any other hindu identities?

 

[ajtr]

Do not ignore the distinction between Deobandi jihadis and Salafi (wahhabi) jihadis in Pakistan

 

[ejazr]

@ thakur

It is correct that there is no caste system in Islam but people in sub-continent are unfortunately part and parcel of it which I find very unfortunate. However, these are usually relegated to marriage issues and even that is breaking down slowly. But these are more to do with cultural aspects than beliefs as such. For example, brides in the sub-continent wear red dresses while Arabs brides prefer white dresses. There are different customs in Indian and Arab marraiges but that doesn't affect your beliefs even though you may call Indian/Pakistani marriages following "Hindu" customs or betterto call it the Indian subcontinents cultural customs. Again Indonesian muslim have very Hindu surnames as well. Infact, their airlines is named after a Hindu Goddess Garuda. Its a cultural thing. It doesn't make them any less muslim.

As long as a mulim believes that being a Rajput means nothing in the eyes of God andthat you are no better than a "lower" caste except in terms of piety, there is nothing theologically wrong with identifying yourself as Rajput. Calling yourself Rajput or Jat or Desai e.t.c is an identifier and your core belief of one God is not affected by it. But for example idol worship is a widspread culture in India but this affects the core belief of one formless God and hence you will hardly find a muslim doing it.

 

[ejazr]

@Zaki

I believe you were listing the Iman-e-Mufassal or the declaration of faith but I might be mistaken. Here is the complete translation.

Iman-e-Mufassil (or the Detailed declaration of faith)

I have faith in Allah and His Angels, His Books and His Messengers, and the Day of Judgement and that all good and evil and fate is from Almighty Allah and it is sure that there will be resurrection after death.

The basic declaration is
There is no one worthy of worship except God and Muhammed is the final prophet

Anyone who believes in this is a muslim

 

[Vinod2070]

Doesn't the Muslim personal law discriminate against Indian converts in the matters of marriage etc.? I read an article by Arif Mohammed Khan on this and it was really sad to see Indians being discriminated in our country like this!

 

[Zaki]

Thanks Ejazr for replying most of the questions on my behalf. Sorry i was bit busy

who defines this, is it stated somewhere or is it some interpretation of a cleric/scholar?

The Holy Qur'an itself.

 

[Zaki]

These are necessary conditions but not sufficient. You also need to believe that the previous book (Bible) has become corrupted. So while all holy books (???) need to be respected, there are no original holy books at all except one!

I have to admire your criteria.

You are right Vinod, these are few of the necassary conditions
@ Bible and other Scriptures
Well we are allowed to quote anything from the bible taking it as a word of god. We only have problem with some verses that contradicts with the core belief of Islam. Bible as a whole is still respected book among us and we are allowed to follow its each and every word unless not contradicting with Islam

 

[Zaki]

@Zaki

I believe you were listing the Iman-e-Mufassal or the declaration of faith but I might be mistaken. Here is the complete translation.

Iman-e-Mufassil (or the Detailed declaration of faith)

I have faith in Allah and His Angels, His Books and His Messengers, and the Day of Judgement and that all good and evil and fate is from Almighty Allah and it is sure that there will be resurrection after death.

The basic declaration is
There is no one worthy of worship except God and Muhammed is the final prophet

Anyone who believes in this is a muslim

Well actually i know Iman-e-Mufassal but i was just giving a simple answer. By the way, some verses of the Qur'an were also in my mind when i was writing my last post
Such as Surah Baqarah

Alif Lam Mim (A.L.M.); (1)
this is the Book, no doubt in it, a guidance to the godfearing, (2)
who believe without seeing, establish the Prayer and expend of that We have provided them; (3)
who believe in what has been sent down to thee and what has been sent down before thee, and they are sure about the Hereafter. (4)
Those are upon guidance from their Lord, and those are the ones who shall prosper.(5)
Those who disbelieve, it is equal for them whether thou warn them or warn them not, they will not believe. (6)
God has set a seal on their hearts and on their ears; and there is a covering on their eyes; and for them shall be a big punishment.(7)
And some men there are who say, `we believe in God and the Last Day', but they are no believers. (8)[
They would deceive God and the Believers, but they do not deceive any except themselves, though they do not perceive. (9)/B]
In their hearts is a sickness, then God increased their sickness, and for them shall be a painful punishment, for that they were speaking lies. (10)

and Surah Al-e-Imran

God, there is no god but He, the Living, the Everlasting; (2)

and Surah Ahzab

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of God and the Seal of the Prophets; and God has knowledge of everything.(40)

 

[Vinod2070]

Some of the legal provisions with respect to marriage and divorce compiled by the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB) sharply violate the spirit —and word — of the Quran. On the question of parity between husband and wife, Section 117 (3) of the AIMPLB compendium differentiates between Muslims of Arab and non-Arab origin. It provides that "regard shall be had in respect of descent among the Arabs especially Quraysh and those non-Arab families who have preserved their descent. People in the rest of the non-Arab world are mutually equal". What a travesty of Islamic egalitarianism and equality.

Similarly, in matters of divorce the compendium makes a mockery of the lofty Islamic principle of 'no compulsion in matters of religion'.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-from-the-will-of-God/articleshow/5783067.cms

Surely the AIMPLB is much more regressive than even other Muslim countries in South Asia and elsewhere. GOI is being a fool allowing such discrimination against Indians in their own country in favor of those who claim to be of foreign descent.

 

[Ray]

One should check the Youtube appended in the thread on Kashmir (if I remember correctly) and check what Dr Naik, the preacher stated as to who is a kaffir!