JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 Xiaolong

[Galaxy 7]

Jf 17 radar is not capable of scanning in sea. This is the reason pakis did not buy CM400akg. Paki MoDP website has last 10 years annual report. You can see all the weapons purchase made by pakis in last 10 year .

 

[nimo_cn]

I am no military expert, but I am positively sure that jf17 kills if there was a war between Pakistan and India. If indian members disagree and are convinced that jf17 is "junk fighter", then it's a good thing for you, you should celebrate that.

In this case, both Chinese and Indians have the same wish, which is that, the more JF17s for Pakistan, the better.

 

[rone]

I am no military expert, but I am positively sure that jf17 kills if there was a war between Pakistan and India. If indian members disagree and are convinced that jf17 is "junk fighter", then it's a good thing for you, you should celebrate that.

In this case, both Chinese and Indians have the same wish, which is that, the more JF17s for Pakistan, the better.

definitely there will we air war jf 17 can at least score 1kill but in cost of how many of other jf17 yep jf 17 also have bvr combat capabilities but remember jf17 mostly have to face of with su30mki which was planed to counter f16 and j11 ,j15 like super maneuverable aircraft also jf 17 have so-many limitations in its combat stargazes ...

am 100% sure paf never going to put jf17 in first wave raid if there is an war mostly they use for second or third wave air raids on air fileds but its success rate also depend on how much their first wave attack achieved and how much weaker indian air defense system became... most likely there is a generation gap b/w paf and inda in weapon and aircraft techs ..just like India have same gap with china...

 

[lcafanboy]

In this case, both Chinese and Indians have the same wish, which is that, the more JF17s for Pakistan, the better.

For one I would like to agree with you.... the more JF17s for Pakistan, the better. Suck out all the money out from porkistan as much as you can and Porkies can afford. Don't let them spend on better Fighters like used f-16s. This will greatly help India as we can allot our frontline Fighters rafales & su30mki for lizard China. Even upgraded m2000 Jaguars & Mig29 along with mig21/27 will be too much for Porki air force to handle..,. Remember Jaguars mig29 will be getting AESA.

 

[Dazzler]

@Dazzler @J20! You guys won't mind answering few questions, would you?

If a JF-17 is on an Anti Ship patrol as you put it,

• What is the weapon systems configuration it will carry?
• How much fuel is it going to carry?
• What will be the combat radius?
• What will be the CAP time and flight profile?

Thanks.

Let it be a surprise shall we, your navy will eventually find out.

 

[Dazzler]

By whom and what!!!..................... .

AGM-88, MAR-1, and recently inducted LD-10 anti radiation missiles.

 

[nimo_cn]

definitely there will we air war jf 17 can at least score 1kill but in cost of how many of other jf17 yep jf 17 also have bvr combat capabilities but remember jf17 mostly have to face of with su30mki which was planed to counter f16 and j11 ,j15 like super maneuverable aircraft also jf 17 have so-many limitations in its combat stargazes ...

am 100% sure paf never going to put jf17 in first wave raid if there is an war mostly they use for second or third wave air raids on air fileds but its success rate also depend on how much their first wave attack achieved and how much weaker indian air defense system became... most likely there is a generation gap b/w paf and inda in weapon and aircraft techs ..just like India have same gap with china...

I am not fully grasping what you are talking about, but I guess that you are argueing that JF17 is no match to Su30. of course jf17 can't compete Su30MM, no sane people would think that JF17 and Su30 are in the same league, but that doesn't mean that JF17 is junk because it is still an effective deterrent and it kills. Imagine today's PAF without JF17, it's worse for Pakistan. And the more important thing for Pakistan is that the successful development of JF17 enables Pakistan to improve JF17 constantly, JF17 is becoming more and more capable since its birth.

 

[rone]

I am not fully grasping what you are talking about, but I guess that you are argueing that JF17 is no match to Su30. of course jf17 can't compete Su30MM, no sane people would think that JF17 and Su30 are in the same league, but that doesn't mean that JF17 is junk because it is still an effective deterrent and it kills. Imagine today's PAF without JF17, it's worse for Pakistan. And the more important thing for Pakistan is that the successful development of JF17 enables Pakistan to improve JF17 constantly, JF17 is becoming more and more capable since its birth.

am not saying jf 17 is junk but am saying its not to stereo hype the jf17 , yes if there is no jf17 on with 60 f16 and rest 3gen aircraft they wont even stand a chance towards iaf ..but if u look closely jf 17 in paf only enhanced its ground strike role not air combat or interception role , yes due to expandable Chinese weapon like cm4000 and sd10 bvr missile it have a limited air to air combat capability and navel strike role but it not a fully operational multi role fighter more than an advanced trainer converted in to combat capable aircraft ...


ps:from Chinese media it self it says that in paf Chinese air force advanced air combat excise Chinese j11 and j10 score more kills than experienced paf...

 

[Flame Thrower]

AGM-88, MAR-1, and recently inducted LD-10 anti radiation missiles.

With AGM-88 you have to come almost 250km inside S400 range.

Mar-1 is even worse with only 100km range

LD-10 is a converted SD-10 with max radius of 80km.

I seriously doubt Pak coming any closer to launch any of these ARMs.

Explain me a scenario (convincing one) where any or all of the Paki AF coming close to striking S-400(as IADS including 9M96E2 missiles, BuK, Aakash systems and Tunguska as point defense)

For your convenience, exclude IAF from the picture. Use, every and all weapons of Pak arsenal. Let's see the cost incurred and how long Pak can bear such costs

 

[Rahul Singh]

Ok, here's Tejas in asymmetric load configuration without weight balancing. Unlike JF-17.

AGM-88, MAR-1, and recently inducted LD-10 anti-radiation missiles.

These beam-riding missiles will lose their targets once Radar gets turned off. They are at best useful in SEAD along with dedicated EW assets conducting a swarm attack on a particular battery.

For DEAD that too against a SAM like S400 and its upcoming Indian equivalent -- SAM system based on AAD-- which will have more than one FCR, SR and MMR in its battery. the requirement will be much more than a jet armed with a couple of anti-radiation missiles.

Best way to neutralise any S400 type threat is by taking out its C2 structure. And best weapon would be a long-range air-launched Cruise Missile. However, once any such missile will enter 400 km envelop it itself would become a target.

 

[sthf]

Let it be a surprise shall we, your navy will eventually find out.

Such technology much wow.

There is a saying in Hindi that fits you perfectly.

PHATI GAAND TOH BHAGI RAAND.

 

[jat]

I am no military expert, but I am positively sure that jf17 kills if there was a war between Pakistan and India. If indian members disagree and are convinced that jf17 is "junk fighter", then it's a good thing for you, you should celebrate that.

In this case, both Chinese and Indians have the same wish, which is that, the more JF17s for Pakistan, the better.

yep. Thats the reason for IAF lax attitudes. The only concern are those F-16s and new SAMs licensed from Russia, built in China, sold to Pakistan. Other than that, India has Pakistans number. The biggest fear being an implosion of Pakistan. its already a crap hole of jihadis with norinco guns.

 

[porky_kicker]

LOL...some idiot came with stupid logic ignoring the fact that FC-1 already has two export orders, does it really matter for a combat plane?...

the PLAAF VVIP needn't such experience, obviously light weight class figher has no place in PLAAF any more. and elite test pilots from PLAAF flight test regiment have loads of such experience

and some idiots here and there can't understand at least a two-seater is essential for such so called VIP experience....but JF17B is on the way...

Next time think twice before calling others idiot, till date I have ignored you , want to keep it that way.

As for orders - it will be prudent to give a thought to the fact that the Fc1 was selected without any sort of competitive trials by either of the 2 countries.

I doubt if even the pilots from either of the 2 countries test flew the Fc1.

Atleast I am sure about the African client.

This gives rise to the over riding reason - low cost , which played a singular role in its selection, rather than due merit.


Only time will tell....... Just don't indulge in excess idiocracy till then like 2 seater being essential for VIP experience rather than conversion training , atleast for a single engined fighter. This kind of idiocracy is more expected from your iron brothers , or maybe there ain't any difference..... That's up to you.

 

[jat]

Explain me a scenario (convincing one) where any or all of the Paki AF coming close to striking S-400(as IADS including 9M96E2 missiles, BuK, Aakash systems and Tunguska as point defense)

For your convenience, exclude IAF from the picture. Use, every and all weapons of Pak arsenal. Let's see the cost incurred and how long Pak can bear such costs

There is always a chance, but I doubt that in a future conflict PAF would be offensive. These weapons are probably not just intended for India if at all.

I am not fully grasping what you are talking about, but I guess that you are argueing that JF17 is no match to Su30. of course jf17 can't compete Su30MM, no sane people would think that JF17 and Su30 are in the same league, but that doesn't mean that JF17 is junk because it is still an effective deterrent and it kills. Imagine today's PAF without JF17, it's worse for Pakistan. And the more important thing for Pakistan is that the successful development of JF17 enables Pakistan to improve JF17 constantly, JF17 is becoming more and more capable since its birth.

Let me explain to you the Junk Flight 17. PAF could have easily upgraded their J-7s with BVR if they had Israel or America to help them. They couldn't get it done. Perhaps Chengdu will help them? The effect could have been the same. The downside is, they are still short a LCA. They would have had to buy Gripen or more F-16s. The biggest reason for JF-17 likily was because J-7 production line was being sold off cheaply, and upgraded little bit for Pakistan. Downside is, JF-17 is neither cheap as J-7 upgrades or advanced as Gripen or Tejas for that matter.
Does it pose a threat to IAF, somewhat. Its a defensive weapon, likely not be offensive against India.
To prove my point, I'd like you to consider the Tejas production line. Its not so busy despite, PLAAF and PAF pressuring India. Either IAF is negligent of the threat or they know what we do not but suspect. The PAF and PLAAF are overestimated.

 

[J20!]

@shiphone I guess your two posts above were for my benefit. Let's dissect what you have posted.

• JF-17 which entered service in the late 2000s has to rely on asymmetrical payload configuration, same as the A4 Skyhawk which entered service in the 1950s in order to have a meaningful combat radius. Indian Jaguars of 1980s vintage fulfills same role but by carrying similar missile much farther than the mainstay of PAF.
• The payload itself is a subsonic short range missile sans stealth features similar to other weapons in its class like Harpoon.
• The 1800 km range that the poster mentioned was ferry range I.e. without weapons, flying at an optimal altitude and speed on internal fuel. No mention of combat radius or CAP time.
• Yes, JF-17 can carry two CM-400AKG, which is ballistic missile and not a sea skimming missile with dubious role in the Indo-Pak naval warfare scenario. Even then Jf 17 sacrifices almost all of its external fuel, essentially turning it into something out of the 1960s.
• Unless you can provide some credible evidence about JF-17's improved payload and centerline 1100 liters fuel tank, further discussion on this particular point is futile. A screenshot of a YouTube videos in a language I can't read doesn't count as one.

The flight profile, flight time and payload are right there for anyone with the eyes to see them. 1800km flying a high high high flight profile for a 3.5 hr flight time carrying two 1100 litter tanks, a single 800 litter centerline tank, 2 MRAAMs and 2 SRAAMs. Or an air-to-ground payload of 4 x 250kg and 2 SRAAMs on a medium - low - low - high flight profile.

As @shiphone pointed out, combat radius is usually 1/3 of a combat jets loaded range figure, coming to 600km for both configurations. IDK how exactly a 600km Combat radius figure turns the JF17 into a 60s platform, but suit yourself. Export customers and Pakistan seem to find its performance acceptable. Thats not even factoring in block ii's inflight refueling capability.

180km range, sea skimming, subsonic ASMs have been inducted by navies and air forces the world over for their cost effectiveness and significant offensive capabilities. It's not brahmos or nothing gents, otherwise the IN wouldn't bother with subsonic ASMs; and none of the INs subsonic ASMs are stealthy either, so I fail to grasp your argument here.

 

[Flame Thrower]

.

180km range, sea skimming, subsonic ASMs have been inducted by navies and air forces the world over for their cost effectiveness and significant offensive capabilities. It's not brahmos or nothing gents, otherwise the IN wouldn't bother with subsonic ASMs; and none of the INs subsonic ASMs are stealthy either, so I fail to grasp your argument here.

Their induction had begun in the 1980's. And their countering mechanisms have been developed as well

Thanks to Falkland war, power of exocet Missile came into picture.

We've used anti ship missiles in 1970's, we do know the devastating effects. We also know about counters being developed in mid 1990's.

Brahmos Corp was setup in 1998, amid tough sanctions and bad economic situation. Brahmos what you call a child of Onyx missile can do s manoeuvres during terminal phase which no supersonic (including the Onyx, by the way do you know that Ramjet of Onyx for low flights were perfected during the development of Brahmos) missile can.

As soon as there is a news of some kind of counter to Brahmos like LR -SAM, we made sure that it's part of our ship defense.

When the world has started to develop Mach 3 like ASMP(won't be advanced as Brahmos due to no terminal phase manoeuvres), Brahmos started to look at Hypersonic version (Sure US did tried for say a decade and gave up I think; as no latest update)

The end of the story is, baap...baap hota hai. Never ever advise someone who is way ahead of you and crossed the path long ago. IN had been commanded by the people like Admiral Nanda, beware......

 

[jat]

definitely there will we air war jf 17 can at least score 1kill but in cost of how many of other jf17 yep jf 17 also have bvr combat capabilities but remember jf17 mostly have to face of with su30mki which was planed to counter f16 and j11 ,j15 like super maneuverable aircraft also jf 17 have so-many limitations in its combat stargazes ...

am 100% sure paf never going to put jf17 in first wave raid if there is an war mostly they use for second or third wave air raids on air fileds but its success rate also depend on how much their first wave attack achieved and how much weaker indian air defense system became... most likely there is a generation gap b/w paf and inda in weapon and aircraft techs ..just like India have same gap with china...

If there was a war with Pakistan, the Indian side would have destroyed half the airfields in Pakistan pretty soon. Hopefully perhaps JF-17s are able to survive thanks to their size being housed in the same bunkers as j-7 previously. I doubt the super seven would go on the offensive. It does not have the range, nor the advanced EW to confuse SAMs. Its basically a defensive platform, that'll chew time from IAF shorties.
Second and third raids may not come. IA, IAF would have targeted many of those necessary airfields forcing PAF to use highways. This is why Pakistan had better roads than Indian in the first place. Also the gaps are small in terms of technology vs Pakistan. Pakistan can have aesa soon, and they do have some SAMs of decent specs. Problem is the depth of Pakistan and their numbers. But numbers vs China don't matter much, for India atleast. There are hardly any airfields in Tibet. Ontop of that the stealth fighters of China...are not breaking any records. IAF Rafales may have good chance of neutralizing this threat. PLAAF is not as sophisticated as one would imagine. They have caught up, but military embargos, lack of trust via russia is hurting their defence preparedness. For instance, if PLAAF was such a scary nightmare for IAF, Why would DOD drop IAF numbers on the scale they have? Its not like the are pushing Flankers or Tejas into production. They seem to be taking their sweet time. While there is competition, their is little reason to concern over PLAAF or PAF. The greatest threat PLA pose to India and IAF is not PLAAF or PLAN but the Chinese ballistic rockets. Like how IA artillery is a threat to PAF because of the proximity.

 

[IndiaRising]

Let it be a surprise shall we, your navy will eventually find out.

first learn how to take care of Atlantique. go cross the border, i dare you.

 

[Dazzler]

Ok, here's Tejas in asymmetric load configuration without weight balancing. Unlike JF-17.

View attachment 23376

View attachment 23377

These beam-riding missiles will lose their targets once Radar gets turned off. They are at best useful in SEAD along with dedicated EW assets conducting a swarm attack on a particular battery.

For DEAD that too against a SAM like S400 and its upcoming Indian equivalent -- SAM system based on AAD-- which will have more than one FCR, SR and MMR in its battery. the requirement will be much more than a jet armed with a couple of anti-radiation missiles.

Best way to neutralise any S400 type threat is by taking out its C2 structure. And best weapon would be a long-range air-launched Cruise Missile. However, once any such missile will enter 400 km envelop it itself would become a target.

You guys live in fantasies. Ever heard of Home on Jam mode?

 

[Dazzler]

first learn how to take care of Atlantique. go cross the border, i dare you.

Not needed, stand off munitions will take care of it.